useful or useless?

[Leah]

It really is alien, Leah!! Thats a good description. I probably was very naive, but I always assumed that the purpose of intimacy was  deeper love. Maybe i thought i was lovable too, and that anyone really knowing me would appreciate me more deeply. N's only want intimacy for greater control.

Yep, I can totally understand why you felt the need to pull your child-hood story. You have more guts than me, because I was never even able to post mine. Also, I couldn't muster the energy to dig it all up again.

I like you idea of clearing history and being careful with passwords. My browser stores mine, and thats how that guy logged into my forums back then.

X bella

Dear Bella,

My computer is like Fort Knox to get into and I live alone!!  Password protected to log on and use, and then everything else is password protected also.

Alien:  when my d v support lady was sitting with me a few years ago now, she remarked on all that I had survived and asked how I managed it, to which I replied with my usual humour; "I think I must be an Alien"     So, the use of the word alien kind of stuck with me since then.

Don't believe I need to write about my childhood at any time in the future as I have enlightenment on the issues that I was pondering about. and have a deep peace and contentment, which I don't want to lose.

I was naive and too trusting, and yes, always must have thought that by being so lovable, that I would be loved back, but I wasn't.  But, now in enlightenment, what a tool for an N to have control.

So glad to know that you have someone who loves you now, dear Bella.  That is truly heartwarming to know.

Love, Leah

[Leah]

Dear Izzy,

On a more serious note, thank you for sharing of your grandson's adventure and book, of which, I have read from the link you have provided. That is the book I recall you mentioning, that you went out and purchased for yourself.  That was some adventure, of a lifetime I would think, or not.  Your grandson would have sufffered from PTSD after such a near death trauma, I would think.   

Love, Leah   

[Certain Hope]

Carolyn,

Because of time constraints, I've had to skim the thread a bit, so I hope I have gotten everyone's point of view straight.  (I wouldnt have skipped the thread for the world--since Mud began it and his perspective is always so pithy and right on).

Anyway, boards take on a life of their own, it seems...but all other things being equal, I probably agree with you that voicelessness is probably more of the underlying issue than is narcissism.  I think that narcissism is the trigger for our underlying voicelessness--and the reason we gather here is because we at least perceive that we are/were voiceless.  Sometimes I think what we term voicelessness is really an ineffective, powerless voice---it's not like we are shut down from talking, so many of us here seem VERY articulate! 

It was easy for me to think, when I was first becoming aware of the dynamic, that narcissism is the problem--but I really don't think it is.  Everyone in the world isnt voiceless, but everyone runs into N's or N'ish behavior constantly.  Narcissism doesnt back everyone into a powerless corner like it did us.  The variable--to me--seems to be what skills I did or didnt develop to stand up to N's. 

I'll speak for myself here:  the skill I thought that I needed in dealing with N's was persistence.  If I kept on with the relationship and didnt give up, it would eventually turn around.  My voicelessness stemmed from being bested by the N in persistence.  I found that no matter how long I thought I could hold out with my point of view, they could hold out longer.  I was "voiceless" because nothing I said or did could change that fact.

For me, the point at which I came to the board was the point at which I realized that there was no more hope.  If you have seen the movie, War of the Roses, you remember the last scene where they are lying there dying and are still arguing about who was right.  Neither one was voiceless.  My NH hated that movie because no one won.  I was tickled because they were still arguing.  How true to life.

So, at first I was attracted to the thought of being voiceless.  My NH would also describe himself as voiceless (if I bothered to ask him).  Both of us would have defined voiceless as not being able to talk the other person into meeting our needs.  When the real solution should have been to talk long enough to know that the other person didnt want to meet our needs, and then parting in a civil way to find someone who did.  I am not too attracted anymore to dissecting narcissism, or to calling myself voiceless.  I think it's just stages that we go through on our way to healthy.

Well, I have to confess that it has been the process of having a very different sort of relationship that has put a lot of this into perspective.  I have forced myself to keep my mouth shut when I really want to verbally armwrestle the other person into seeing my perspective.  From the outside, I have probably appeared more voiceless than I did in my marriage.  But on the inside, I am thinking through my feelings, reactions, his responses and weighing them:  as upset as I am right now, where does my power lie?  Do I need to say something?  Do I need to change my expectations?  Do I need to change my responses? Do I need to listen more?  Do I need to walk away (to me, it is always having this option on the front burner, that makes me able to look closely at what is going on). In spite of the fact that I say a whole lot less in this relationship than I did in my marriage, I feel less voiceless. 

Here's an interesting development that I had never imagined in a million years: in this relationship, disagreements have always ended with MORE connection, not less.  We feel CLOSER, not more estranged.  We both feel HEARD, even if we both retain our viewpoint.  It helps that neither of us are N's, but I think that a big part of the difference is that I am handling my "voicelessness" differently.  My emotions feel just as intense with this relationship as they were in my marriage.  But I am learning how to channel them into my true voice. 

I think that the topics on the board probably weave in and out among all the different issues related to "voicelessness".  Right now, I feel the balance is tipped toward other people's behavior (Nism or perceived Nism) rather than self-power (overcoming voicelessness).  Like others here,  I feel a lot of resistance toward any attempts to steer the discussion toward me-statements instead of you-statements.  I havent been here long enough to know if that's a normal ebb and flow on the board. 

Tayana might not feel as though it was time to move on from the board if there was a place to continue to work through issues that come up as we get farther along in the journey.  As I step out into the next turn in the bend of my journey, I feel tentative and vulnerable again.  Because the board does seem to be geared toward the discussion of narcissism, I hesitate to put my concerns out for help because I sense that every situation will be evaluated and examined for evidence of narcissism.  I'm too new in my healing to handle all my own issues and other people's too.  So, my relationship and the things I struggle with are kept close to my heart.

That was a bit of a ramble, Carolyn.  I guess I'll go ahead and push post because I suspect that some of it will resonate with you, and I also suspect you could use someone resonating with you right about now.  I guess the bottom line is that the journey is really our own and, when it comes right down to it, we are the only ones who walk it.

Much love,
CB

Dear CB,

I had to quote your post in its entirety because it was impossible for me to pick and choose portions about which to say - Yes! This resonates with me.

The whole thing... well, it's been a sight for sore eyes to me this evening, just exactly what I needed to read. Thank you more than I can say for such a lovely gift of your time and understanding to reach out to me in this way.
Wish I had the alertness and energy to write a 50 page response, because that's what I fear it would take... but instead I will just save your words, print them even, and review as needed.
I do believe you've managed to remove that pesky bee from my bonnet, dear ((((((((((CB)))))))))) ... thank you.

Bunches of love,
Carolyn

[Izzy_*now*]

Dear Leah,

As far as I could tell, re my grandson, I heard the radio intereviews, and they are still there in the Archives, that he was very detached from what happened, no mention of his Uncle Tom's death, other than he died, --what it meant to him etc., no mention of Tom's children back home, his wife. He was 17, is 21 now and I was furious with ex SIL for allowing him to go on such a dangerous trip.  17 is too young to make a choice like that and his father is too N, to not think that there was some admiration/adulation for him in the picture.

However, when KC called father on the satellite phone, his dad spaced out (it's in the book) right after giving details to his girlfriend and SHE called the Coast guards etc. SIL does not come out shining.

But it was when he came to see me, 2 years ago, motorbike and stayed a couple of days, he was full of himself and then I was convinced he was picking up N traits from his father, much to my sorrow.

xx
Izzy

[Leah]

Dear Izzy,

Agree with you entirely, how for very selfish Nish reasons SIL projected his 17 year old son onto a dangerous trip.

That must have been so saddening for you, when your grandson came to see you, and you picked up on his N traits from SIL.

I would have felt powerlessness coupled with sadness.

Love, Leah