Why is it?

[Feline]

Look I don't fixate on this stuff. It overwhelmes me sometimes.I feel intensely that's all. I am recovering from trauma and part of my recovering means finding the wisdom to know the difference I agree..And when I can't change things and I know it,I still care. It's called compassion.Compassion hurts when you feel it sometimes.

What I mean by sanity is this:everyone in this world  has  problems in life,everyone has flaws in thier  thinking,or perceptions,everyone reacts to stuff,puts thier foot in it,or gets  stuck in the wrong head  space. I do that plenty.Sometimes humanity is actively choosing it,sometimes unconsiously sometimes it's circumstances,or manipulation or baggage  or a mix of these things. Life and people are complicated mlulti layered things.
Sanity is a fluid,amorphous  thing no one can pin into a box.
It is subjective.Sanity can come out of people other people tell you are crazy. And sane looking people can be really out there.You just can't go on appearances.

There are always social forces and people out there  that say you can't change things.Human nature blah,blah,will of god ect. They seem to be offended by your non acceptance of the status quo and the will you express to help better the situation here.Sometimes when I am overwhelmed I'm not ekloquent.I say harshness that reflects the state of my heart at the time I say it. People and groups that tell you to give up shut up and just lump it,they want you to feel like they feel.Or even worse make you feel like a nut for even daring to dream a better world and doing the actions to make it true.
This is disempowering.I ain't going along with that game. It keeps things as they are which I find tragic.

The wisdom of knowing the difference is hard, it's a struggle. I learn more how to do it everyday.but every situation is different.
Accepting I am limited in what I can do is hard on me sometimes, but I desire healing.I desire healing for life itself. I dream big.
When it's obvious I can't help  I let it go.I have to.
But despite letting go I still feel deep sadness,sadness at the suffering itself.Sadness at watching it unfold.
My voice is one of the ones that says reality itself is very sick and people can reflect it on each other. Even when they are doing good or think they are.Evasion does not help.

Ever hear that life script idea from Transactional Analysis? The I'm Ok Your'e OK idea?
Well here's my Script:
I'm not OK, You're not OK AND I'm OK, You're OK.
I hold both contradictory scripts in my mind  because life and the human being  is that complex. People are ok than they are not I am ok than I'm not. things are fluid.changeable.Ego is not one it's many facets in one. Some of it is ok some of it ain't and it's in everyone. You can't erase your ego. Sublimated ego can be just  the 'ol stink of enlightenment.

Now when I get the serenity prayer in response to my compassion and frustration ,mourning and anger at being told I deserve eternal torment because I exist,it hurts,it offends.It's that  I am overwhelmed with.  I can be offended at the implication of just stuffing it in serenity pladitudes can be applied that way.I have seen the serenity prayer being used by narcissists in this way before.( not including the god thing I don't care about that issue,and I know you didn't say the serenity prayer  to bring god into it,you said it for other reasons)

My religion does not matter at all I agree. Religion does not matter in lifde alot frankly. It matters how I use my religion in my life.
Some people use religion to justify being a bully,being pushy,being cruel and dominating.This ain't spiritual and alot people seem to be unable sometimes to see through that or to change the religion and thier relationship with it to reflect the better person inside themselves that is struggling there under all thier baggage ,confusion and wounds..

But what  does matter ultimately to me, is how I treat others. How I treat myself and the way I apply my boundaries in my own life. My integrity is my choice and responsibility and it need not mean a damn thing to anyone else.They are not me. Sometimes my feelings  isn't all about me.And  this is how life is in a relational world, it's complicated .. I choose  to care despite that . I choose to act in a way that helps in the best way I can figure out at the time.If I find out in hindsight it could have been better,I don't feel guilty, at least I listened to my heart and did or said something real. I choose to try to see reality and not evade it,and that is sometimes very emotionally taxing on me,and this is why I  post here. To find my voice and to walk my talk better .I am wrong alot of the time too.
. Alot of people talk and walk away.
Like I said I want to be better than this world. And taking this route is hard sometimes,there are alot of people threatened by what you feel and say, who'll try to make you lose your sensitivity or stop caring.So I need to vent,to be encouraged and be encoraging and to express it..

That's my experince.

[gnostikos]

What I am hearing from Feline is that:

1) There are harmful religious attitudes and actions, that are a serious problem, that reflect some sort of sickness, that has very negative social effects

2) The environment forces some of these facts upon some of us, regardless of our choices, so we are in a position where we must deal with reactions, triggers, traumas, overwhelmed feelings

3) There is great danger in avoiding or denying these issues, and there are definitely times when it is a great disservice to ones self, to simply ignore them or remain silent.

4) Sanity is often defined as conforming to a sick society.  More reasonably, it is described in terms of coping, and yet some situations cannot be coped with by any meaningful definition of 'cope'... All need healing, and so there is no perfect blueprint, certainly no rigid prototype, of what 'normal' or 'sane' is.  There are only descriptions of relative coping, relative healing.

5) Choosing to have integrity and to help heal and show compassion, were mentioned, as answers.

----

I don't see a reason to assume that Feline is making herself miserable.  I do see a reason to believe that Feline is describing some real problems, that reach into our society itself, and into very common human challenges that are really difficult.

I don't see how any platitude can seriously be posited as a simple or quick fix answer to the deepest of human challenges.  Perhaps platitudes are a way of avoiding the complexity of the issues, and a way to try to sidestep the fact that some things take a lot of time, and that some deep overwhelming issues are profoundly troubling and not resolved so easily... and perhaps platitudes help some people feel superior as they avoid listening...

[Anonymous]

Look I don't fixate on this stuff. It overwhelmes me sometimes.I feel intensely that's all. I am recovering from trauma and part of my recovering means finding the wisdom to know the difference I agree..And when I can't change things and I know it,I still care. It's called compassion.Compassion hurts when you feel it sometimes.

Okay.

What I mean by sanity is this:everyone in this world  has  problems in life,everyone has flaws in thier  thinking,or perceptions,everyone reacts to stuff,puts thier foot in it,or gets  stuck in the wrong head  space. I do that plenty.Sometimes humanity is actively choosing it,sometimes unconsiously sometimes it's circumstances,or manipulation or baggage  or a mix of these things. Life and people are complicated mlulti layered things.

I agree.

Sanity is a fluid,amorphous  thing no one can pin into a box.
It is subjective.Sanity can come out of people other people tell you are crazy. And sane looking people can be really out there.You just can't go on appearances.

Sanity is subjective to some degree. There are plenty of books and movies where the supposedly sane people are actually evil, insane, etc. However in life I think we know when we're dealing with a sane person. We can feel the sanity in our interactions with them. Usually the person is relatively calm, not overreactive, not defensive, not angry, not retaliatory.

There are always social forces and people out there  that say you can't change things.Human nature blah,blah,will of god ect.

And one of my questions was and is, how is it that you're dealing with people who don't share your goals? What are these people doing there?

Accepting I am limited in what I can do is hard on me sometimes, but I desire healing.I desire healing for life itself. I dream big.
When it's obvious I can't help  I let it go.I have to.
But despite letting go I still feel deep sadness,sadness at the suffering itself.Sadness at watching it unfold.
My voice is one of the ones that says reality itself is very sick and people can reflect it on each other. Even when they are doing good or think they are.Evasion does not help.

Reality is sick. There is a lot of suffering. There are things you can do and things you can't. If you have money, you can help a lot of people. If you don't have money, your ability to help will be more limited. That is part of the sick reality. Some people won't accept reality and they become heroes. That takes a certain kind of person, one who is able to get major things done.

Now when I get the serenity prayer in response to my compassion and frustration ,mourning and anger at being told I deserve eternal torment because I exist,it hurts,it offends.

Feline, I'm sorry if I offended you with the serenity prayer. I certainly didn't intend it as an offense. I think it's one of the wisest things I ever heard, and they are words that I live by. It's not meant to put you down. I don't believe the serenity prayer says to give up, stuff it, that you deserve eternal torment, or anything like that. It involves thinking about what we want to do and then do it.

There is a place to vent. At some point, only action will accomplish the goals you're talking about. You know that, though. You took action about the child molester and that was the way to go.

bunny

[Anonymous]

I don't see how any platitude can seriously be posited as a simple or quick fix answer to the deepest of human challenges.  Perhaps platitudes are a way of avoiding the complexity of the issues, and a way to try to sidestep the fact that some things take a lot of time, and that some deep overwhelming issues are profoundly troubling and not resolved so easily... and perhaps platitudes help some people feel superior as they avoid listening...

Maybe you feel superior calling the serenity prayer a platitude. It is not a platitude.

bunny

[gnostikos]

If you wish, re-read my post carefully.  Do you disagree with any of it?  Do you agree with any of it?

I think a lot of ideas can be used as plattitudes, though they need not be platittudes.  I personally value the Serenity prayer.  My point about platitudes was mostly that life is complex, and change is often slow, and being overwhelmed is not easily dealt with, and that simple concepts can be thrown out at people to avoid these things, and that we can latch onto certain formula, but that might miss the point.

The Serenity prayer does not really offer practical, helpful, insight, at certain stages of dealing with complex and deep issues, especially when there are personal as well as social factors involved.  The Serenity Prayer offers the guidance to accept what cannot be changed, but does not indicate just how that is likely to happen, it offers the guidance to change the things that we can, without offering much comfort in the difficulty of the effort involved and the possibility that the effort may be in vain, and it councels wisdom to know the difference, without any input as to how to tell that we have gained wisdom or whether we are being fooled.

When the complexities and overwhelming realities have been expressed, worked through, or reached a point where the discussion of them is winding down, it is helpful to affirm the values of wise acceptance and courage, and openness to input and assistance from without.  But while these things are being expressed or worked on, the Serenity Prayer brings up those other questions, of HOW?  And the HOW seems to be part of the discussion.

I wasn't trying to psychoanalyse you, but it seemed to me fairly obvious that Feline's actual points weren't being discussed, or seemed to be avoided or misunderstood.

If it was just misunderstanding, that's fine, now maybe we can look at the issues that were brought up, and the realities that are difficult to deal with?

Then when it comes time to say the Serenity Prayer and carry on and take the next steps or move on with other aspects of life, we will all be better equiped, with maybe a little more wisdom?

It is painful to address these issues, is it not?  It is sometimes easy to overemphasize what we've accomplished, and to minimize the pain or the messy details.

[Anonymous]

I don't have to tell you whether I agree or disagree. I felt the "superiority" and platitude labeling was a bit mean so I mentioned it. That is all I felt like commenting on.

bunny

[Dawning]

Hi Feline.

It matters how I use my religion in my life.
Some people use religion to justify being a bully,being pushy,being cruel and dominating.This ain't spiritual and alot people seem to be unable sometimes to see through that or to change the religion and thier relationship with it to reflect the better person inside themselves that is struggling there under all thier baggage ,confusion and wounds..

Yup, yup, yup.  I recently pulled back from someone I had known for several years that I met in a Sangha (Tibetan Buddhism.)  When I say pull back, I don't mean blow-off.  But she has not responded.  No problem.  I believe she hid behind the guru.  And I couldn't follow the guru to the extent she could.  At the meetings, I would often write in my journal about her bullying tactics...how she would be the self-appointed one to let others gain access to the guru.  Before that, when I tried to cultivate a friendship with her, I felt used.  As in she only *used* me for company.  This started to dawn on me when, after repeated visits to her house and her parties (and calling her sweet cat by the name she had given it) she could only be bothered to make it to my parties for one hour, calling my cats *this one* or *that one.*  My intuition told me to to pull back.  She seemed pretty short on compassion (another person referred to her as a *little hitler*) but as long as she did her 108 prostrations a day, I guess everything was okay in her world.  Whatever works.  I might sound judgemental but I knew the best thing for me was to pull back from her.  The hypocrisy was starting to knaw at me to no end.  I get so frustrated when I am around people that want me to drop everything and help them (which I can do) but they don't take my inevitable need for the occassional support seriously.  

But what does matter ultimately to me, is how I treat others. How I treat myself and the way I apply my boundaries in my own life. My integrity is my choice and responsibility and it need not mean a damn thing to anyone else.They are not me.

Very well put.  Empowering stuff.  If I may ask, what do you do in times of insecurity?  I can do this in my own life until an event happens that makes me feel insecure or when I allow my integrity to be tampered with.

Sometimes my feelings isn't all about me.And this is how life is in a relational world, it's complicated .. I choose to care despite that . I choose to act in a way that helps in the best way I can figure out at the time.If I find out in hindsight it could have been better,I don't feel guilty, at least I listened to my heart and did or said something real.

Just curious...how do you avoid feeling like a martyr if I may ask?  Because, in the past, when I have thought like this I found myself caught up in the a kind of martry syndrome and it was too much to bear.  Still, being a *real* person is the basis of my existance.  I don't know any other way to be and I saw, first-hand, the effects of pretending to be someone else when I was growing up.  Maybe I instincitvely realized what as waste that path would be for me.  

I choose to try to see reality and not evade it,and that is sometimes very emotionally taxing on me,and this is why I post here. To find my voice and to walk my talk better .

You're not alone here!  And thanks for clarifying and giving us your thoughts.

Glad you are posting and sharing.  

[gnostikos]

bunny,

If you want to feel I was mean, I can't stop you, now can I.

[Dawning]

I am not going to answer this one for Bunny.  But, imo...No, no one can *stop* anyone from feeling what they do.  If someone tries to do that, then its time to put up some healthy boundaries.

[Anonymous]

Very well put.  Empowering stuff.  If I may ask, what do you do in times of insecurity?

I feel the insecurity,I don't deny it or ignore how awful it feels.I don;'t feel guilty for feeling it either. and I don't let insecurity tell me who I am, how I should feel ect.Insecurity is a feeling and it's anxiety.It ain't nessesarily "real"or my problem all the time,sometimes it is residues from other people's crap. I am aware I could doubt  and second guess myself all day,so I do what I do I trust myself, I trust my own voice, because I trust my own motives..If I feel insecure about my worth,my actions I ask myself why am I somehow worse than someone else who does the same thing? Would I be bashing someone else like I bash myself? If the answer is no my insecurity is guilty anxiety or fear based in some bullshit in me..When I try to read the results of what I do by looking at signals and hints ( subtleties that might not even be there ) I find my insecurity might be projections,or reactions,they might be misunderstandings..) I need to ask myself why I feel as I do? What reason for this?? I recognize I'm feeling  insecure, I turn on it,and start questioning the rationale of the feeling  in an internal dialog. Soon after probing it directly, I find out the insecurity usually is an old parental script rolling in my headI was not consious of,some replayed lie from some abuser,or it's a trigger..it's fear,self doubt,unwarrented guilt or plain old self hatred,things I don't want in me.So I argue with myself and force the feeling to work for it's existance by challenging my assumptions about myself ,my thoughts and the situation.I look at flipsides to every rationalization or self depreciatory thought. Often insecurity I find out is coming from  bad false  stuff I was conditioned into believing  growing up in an abusive home,that in reality has NOTHING to do with my worth ,unless I convince myself it does and believe the bullshit other people told me to keep me disempowered."cause who I am threatened thier lies of control..
Once I start questioning my feelings and seek the origins they tend to be tested out of existance once the false script of abuse at the heart of that insecurity is uncovered.
The other insecurity is kinda like stage fright,when you enter a contest with stiiff competitors. That insecurity has a small reason to be there because it's basis is in self pride.. because you can never be sure you will win or if your skills are as good as thiers until you see them.


Just curious...how do you avoid feeling like a martyr if I may ask?

Well If I offer help and no one wants it,Fine. I ain't gonna force it.That helps nothing. I help and it fails to help ,I say oh well.I don't take failure  so personally because every human being fails.We are limited we can't control very much and none of us chose to be here as far as I know..
If I can't help because I need help oh well.I insist I get my needs met too. When I am worn out or need rest or goof offI do it with no apologies because who am I supposed to be appeasing some old memory some fear some bullshit feeling I am avoiding? So  I don't feel guilty.
If I am goofing off, I goof off..BFD, everyone goofs off ,rigor has it's limits.I don't want to be a martyr That is not my motive for caring. So I f I remember why I want to help others which ultimately is a selfish motive(*I* want a better relationship with the world) I find it easier to refuse to get sucked into that martyr  role.Once I feel  overwhelmed ,I vent (here sometimes) or do I stuff I want to do,critics and the needy be damned. In order to help others one has to help themself too.In order to feel for others I gotta feel for myself. Having compassion for all means having  compassion for myself too. And deciding I am worthy of my own love.Bullies try to steal self love from you because they hate themselves and lie about thier motives and heart that much.The trick is to balance,your needs and the needs of others and to listen closely to your own internal selves and withdrawl from helping when you need to,and accept help.
If you let other people (esp.needy narcissists who give nothing back) tell you when your helping is done you will NEVER be able to  take a rest.
They'll suck the compassion out of you until you begin stop caring for yourself and you become an enabler without realizing why you feel so frustated,and unloved and the narcissist makes you  become a martyr to keep lies inside you narcissists need to hide themselves from you  going .


You're not alone here!  And thanks for clarifying and giving us your thoughts.

Thanks for listening


Glad you are posting and sharing.  

Glad you are too!