Author Topic: Danger of forgetting  (Read 2833 times)

axa

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Danger of forgetting
« on: January 15, 2008, 02:37:46 AM »
My experience with Nism and the reaction of others in the 3d world is denial.  "nobody could be that bad.........he couldn't have meant that........maybe you misunderstood...... are you sure you are not being a bit over the top" etc.  There is incredible resistance to acknowledging evil.  The amount of collusion within society to deny its existence amazes me.  Sure, when some dreadful acts are committed some where else in the world people can shake their heads and say how terrible it is but refuse to acknowledge that that same evil is present around us all.  It is as if there is a conspiracy to deny the existence of evil in our own circles - I am not talking about the individuals on this board because I have no doubt that everyone here who has had the misfortune to encounter an N has met evil.

I often think about this topic and wonder why others are so hell bent on looking the other way.  Personally, I believe we are all capable of evil deeds but choose not to act in this way.  We all make choices.  I have fantasised about doing dreadful things to XN but know I would never act on them.  Not because I am such a "good" person but because I understand that the desire for revenge is about my anger and adding evil to evil does not change anything.  I also believe I have a responsibility to behave in a way which is moral, but it does not stop me having the revenge fantasies...........thankfully I rarely think about revenge anymore. 

During my recent spiral of anxiety I think I had unwittingly slipped into some sort of denial.  My flashbacks were all about the grooming period when things were so nice.  Was I in some way trying to escape the truth of the evil I experienced?  It was as if I was trying to make things ok in some strange way.  As if I wanted to pretend it really was not that bad...BUT IT WAS THAT BAD.  Why would I want to forget or water it down?  Reading the article on EVil and Narcissism I was plunged back into the reality of the madness with XN.  This article was written about him.  Isn't it interesting that I wanted to join the rest of the world in the denial of evil.  Is there something here about me the fixer, wanting to tie it all up neatly and put it away. 

The danger of "forgetting" is what I need to watch out for.

Whew

Axa

seasons

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2008, 09:46:05 AM »
Axa thank you for sharing about forgetting, so dangerous!
I personally of thought of the grooming process of my N and sometimes wonderer also was it that bad? They can be so good at realing you in, making you think they may be real.
Sadly don't we know it's not the truth. We have to be on our toes, always.

((seasons))
"Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak Kindly. Leave the Rest to God."
Maya Angelou

seasons

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2008, 10:22:07 AM »
Quote
My experience with Nism and the reaction of others in the 3d world is denial.  "nobody could be that bad.........he couldn't have meant that........maybe you misunderstood...... are you sure you are not being a bit over the top" etc.  There is incredible resistance to acknowledging evil. 


I have experienced the same. This has been one of the hardest parts for me, realizing they will never choose to see or acknowledge the pain and evil the have caused.

Is it safer for them not too?      seasons
"Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak Kindly. Leave the Rest to God."
Maya Angelou

Leah

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2008, 10:27:55 AM »
Quote
My experience with Nism and the reaction of others in the 3d world is denial.  "nobody could be that bad.........he couldn't have meant that........maybe you misunderstood...... are you sure you are not being a bit over the top" etc.  There is incredible resistance to acknowledging evil.  The amount of collusion within society to deny its existence amazes me.


Have experienced the same reaction, which is totally DISMISSING of ones own personal experience endured.

In effect, to oneself, it is additional Crazymaking and Fogging.

It felt to me, like I was laying in the mud, and my Dismisser's were simply finishing the job, by trampling me down under!

Leah
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lighter

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2008, 11:34:40 AM »
I think if we find ourselves reminiscing about the past..... it speaks to our general state of discontent, more or less, in the present.

You've been under a lot of pressure with school and other things......

I completely agree with society wanting to look the other way and resist beleiving the improbable. 

The danger of lowering our boundaries or not defending them increases when we're feeling stronger, at least that's been my experience.  We think we can handle anything, but that's not always true.


axa

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2008, 12:05:48 PM »
You are right Lighter, I need to be so careful with my boundaries and my self care.....doing a bit of sabotaging these days

axa

Leah

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2008, 12:13:42 PM »
You are right Lighter, I need to be so careful with my boundaries and my self care.....doing a bit of sabotaging these days

axa

Dear Axa,

Remember, you have had some stress regarding studies which brought on a wave of flashback (ex PTSD) which is perfectly reasonable given the extent and nature of your own very real life experience with your N.  Both, myself, and another member, have mentioned the PTSD aspect.

Don't be too hard on yourself.  Expressing what was and is true with a voice releases pent up previously Dismissed or Disallowed thoughts and experience, which brings a release, and a healing.

Realization of what is in denial is a balanced healthy option and view.   

Awareness is to be my Anchor in life, for all areas, as a reasonably balanced healthy person.

"good to talk"   :)   

Remember, yesterday, you had such a healing from the 'slime' sadness, hang onto that, dear one.

Your posting this thread will be of a help someone else, feel sure.  It has helped me speak what was real, and true, in my life.

So thank you so much.

Love, Leah
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 01:12:49 PM by LeahsRainbow »
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gratitude28

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2008, 08:58:54 AM »
axa,
This is a great topic. I relate to it both for drinking and with dealing with my NM. With drinking, I can imagine that the first drink would bring that nice sliding down feeling... but instantaneously (thanks to my HP, I believe), it is followed by the feeling that comes later, and the emotions and the fear, and the inability to cease.
With NM, I sometimes remember a nice moment or time (rare,, but they exist). Or we have a conversation that borders on normal. Or she extends some kindness. But I know her underlying thoughts of me bear contempt and uneasiness, and I never feel comfortable with even the nicities she comes up with.
It's a good reminder, axa, especially for those who were in romantic relationships with Ns.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Leah

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2008, 09:16:38 AM »


Agree, lessons learned, and then dismissed and/or forgotten, what would be the outcome?

Thinking in terms of what Beth has highlighted with regard to the possibility of commencing with a friendship / relationship in the future.

My NM experience is similar to yours, Beth, in so much as, were the rare niceties real, as my awareness of her underlying contempt for me, and my regard, was all to evident in testimony of my life.  The sheer uncomfortableness is something that I resonate with.

Love, Leah
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April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

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Confounded

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2008, 11:34:01 AM »
I too have been focused on trying to figure out WHY I tend to forget what I will see crazy behavior again, sooner or later.  One thing that I have noticed is that relationships with N's seem to cycle up and down.  When they are acting fairly normal, things go quite well.  Life seems pretty good.  I start to feel more relaxed..

But it won't last.  Eventually, various things happen that lead the N to feel dissed.  It's just a matter of time, especially since they amuse themselves by trying to aggravate other people.  Their obnoxious behavior is humorous to them ("a joke" in their eyes, even though only they laugh, while the victims of their pranks experience irritation).  Since they are, in many cases, neither serious nor actually funny, those around them often treat them with varying levels of disdain, which they experience as intolerable disapproval (and they can see no justification for their being treated this way).

I think that they fill up with disapproval, and then they lose control.  They start defending actions and statements that are indefensible (incorrect, wrong, absurd, etc.).  Sometimes it's pretty obvious to me that fatigue exacerbates this condition.  I recently watched an N stand in front of a microwave oven and insist that he had heated two pieces of pie to the point if being hot, but they had cooled off again IN 5 SECONDS.  The N was tired, and in his mind he MUST have heated them correctly, but the laws of physics had been suspended, and they had instantaneously gone back to being lukewarm.  I have a new pat answer in these situations.  I no longer argue about the details.  I either say nothing (why bother?) or I say, "You are so completely full of sh*t."  That's it.  I will not engage in any further discussion.  If he tries to engage me in conversation at such a time, I hold up my hand and tell him that "Nobody cares what you say.  You constantly say things that you later recant, and in any case you are unlikely to recall what it was that you said.  I have no reason to pay any attention to you.  So shut up."  Sometimes, he seems to be sort of relieved, as if he knows he can't win and is sort of glad to be dismissed.  He still feels dissed, and can't imagine why that happened. But at least it's over, and he can begin the process that he goes through to get calmed down again when he feels that somebody has "given him cr*p."  I don't need to tell you that whenever somebody "gives him crap," it is completely unjustified, in his mind. 

Events like these remind us that their minds aren't right.  They can function well for a certain period of time, and while things go well we partially forget that WE WILL SEE THAT CRAZY BEHAVIOR AGAIN.  I don't think that it's denial on our parts.  I think that we just automatically resume thinking that people will be reasonable.  That is the default mode for us.  We have to expend effort to hold the thought in our minds that eventually their brains will malfunction again, and when they do they will seem quite ridiculous (deserving of ridicule, ironic isn't it?).

I guess that if they act normal for a while our brains stop applying effort to the process of holding that thought in mind, "Remember, that person is an N, and is going to act crazy eventually."  It's a relatively subtle form of mental impairment, and one which they N endlessly refutes, no matter how many doctors react to them with wide-eyed, open-mouthed amazement. 

I find myself thinking about how I would treat someone who had a learning disability, autism, or another less subtle impairment.  I would not expect that person to snap out of it.  Even if they had a great day, where they functioned at a high level, I would always be ready to cut them some slack when they could not function well.  N's set themselves up, because they can't function really well over an extended period of time.  But they try to pose as people with all the answers.  They don't put much effort into being really sharp, mainly into saying that they are.  The more they talk about how great they are, the less time and energy they have for actually being great, and the more they provoke others to point out their failings.

It's a cycle, and all are victimized, even the N, because even they don't get what they want out of it.  The closest that we can come to a good outcome is one in which our interaction with their craziness is as limited as possible.  With billions of other people on this planet, not to mention all the forms of entertainment available, we don't have to interact with them, when they're in crazy mode, beyond sheer necessity.  While our minds are otherwise occupied we are free to forget...

Go ahead and forget...  It's not our job to examine them.  That's like walking around with a magnifying glass looking for dog do.  Train your magnifying glass on the flowers of life, the things that make you smile, not the things that disgust you.

Don't have a wasted life.  I love you too much.  (Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers)       

     

axa

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2008, 10:25:57 AM »
Confounded,

It is like a form of enmeshment with me.  When I am seperate and taking care of myself I keep perspective and see the past as the past.  When I stop caretaking myself and sabotage I get caught up in the past again. I liked what Lighter said about being dissatisfied with the present and getting caught up in the past again.  When I am anxious I fall back into the "hope trap"........ I hope someone else will do the work for me, take care of me so I don't have to be adult.  I struggle with the discipline of staying present to myself and that seems to be a big learning for me.  I want to crawl back into being a baby in some sort of idealised way.  The reality is that as a baby/child/teenager/adult I have never been taken care of and now it is my work.  It is a bit like writing my paper, I do the preparatory work put everything in place but don't want to do the work of writing, the part that will give me the most satisfaction when the work is done.  Queen of self sabotage - can I have the crown?

Beth,

Using your analogy of drinking is useful.  There is something here for me with regard to the quick fix.  I want the anxiety to go away so I don't have to feel it.  To feel the highs I have to feel the lows also.  I want to forget the big picture which is that the lows are pretty dreadful.  I will keep the image of the drink in my head because I do believe that my addiction is to the highs of N relationships.  Getting the mirroring I never got as a child but I am not dealing with a loving parent but with an N so there is nothing LOVING about the initial high.  Thank you for reminding me of this.  There is a link here for me with discipline, I am so poor at it.  Do not like routine, never had it as a kid, always major drama, weaning myself off the drama is difficult work.  I need to work a 12 step programme. 

Can I ask you what you do to remember the truth and pain of addiction?  If you start thinking you can control it how do you get yourself back to a place of being grounded again.  I have worked with people with addictions in the past and have been so in awe of their resolve............

hugs,

axa


gratitude28

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2008, 11:11:57 AM »
Axa,
It would never hrt for you to go to an open AA meeting. The principles of the program work for anything that control's one's life. The control has to do with the cycle, as you pointed out... the need for a quick solution. I think those of us who grew up in the homes we did simply never learned how to run the long course.
Axa, I was never a great believer in a Power Greater than myself, but SOMETHING took away the need for me to have that quick fix. I believe often it is a power of the group of people I associate with - here and in AA (and I have not been to AA in quite a while, so that power is INSIDE me now).
Axa, it also took time. I ook it easy on myself for a LONG time. I let myself nap, be indulgent about not making too many committments, and took up hobbies (a few too many I fear at times :)). I had guppies and watched them have babies over an over  - a delight every time. I adopted Henry. I became quite a skilled knitter, I started painting. But it took me a while to get to doing any of this. First I was just quite and got through each day or week. Even cleaning helps. Anything to occupy your mind when you know it is tricking you. Once you realize how the mind tricks, it is easier to say, "Oh, be quiet...."
Let me think of more... I know, as I said, the huge one is that I can see the pain and embarrassment in a bottle or glass. And I LOVED drinking. But there are some things we love, that just aren't good for us. As one man used to say, "Do you think a cancer patient would do anything he could if he were told there was a cure for his disease?" Yes, he would. So we have to do the same.
Axa, one other thing that might help you trememndously is helping others in your situation. That is a crux of our program. Can you go to a shelter or help people online? I think that this reinforces more than anything what is not good in your personal cycle. If you can help others out, you might not want to go back. And others who are in a bad situation have so much to learn from you and will be able to realte to you easily.
Lots of love, axa.
Beth
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Leah

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2008, 11:37:21 AM »

Lighter:

I think if we find ourselves reminiscing about the past ..... it speaks to our general state of discontent, more or less, in the present.



What I have found, personally, it that while I now have current objectives for my life (work and current studies) with new hopes and dreams,

at times, as we are only human after all, thoughts of;

...  " I should have had this done and dusted by now, back then, in year 200X " 

and off I have gone, watching the action replay tape!!!!


Remaining in the NOW and fully focused

while at the same time retaining the tools learned to guard; my soul, my heart, my life, my very being

has to be, my current important objective, to walk on.

Hope that makes sense to someone!!!   :)

Love, Leah
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 11:43:09 AM by LeahsRainbow »
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axa

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2008, 12:30:35 PM »
Leah,

It does make sense. I wonder if I have an attachment to being a victim and this may be part of the cycle.  I was always very good on self pity and being a martyr.  In fact I think my script was very tied up with being a martyr.  This was the role of my mother also.  I think I internalised this as if there was some merit in being a victim.  I hate it and I am still hooked on it. 

Beth,

I never thought of going to an AA meeting before.  I assumed one had to have a problem with alcohol to do so.  My mind does get caught up in the cycle.  I work myself out of a place of victimhood, get focused, more on, feel good and then wham my mind sets me back again.  I think this is not what I wanted.  I thought on some level because I had suffered so much that somehow I would be "rewarded" and I now see the reward I was looking for was some form of loving parenting.  Breaking the cycle is so difficult even though I am aware of how destructive it is.  I am thinking that the pattern of "self care" I have may also be quite negative.  I start all over, take on new things, overload myself, have little balance, this all give me a high initially but like all highs I cannot maintain it and as soon as I start to feel overwhelmed I drop down into the poor me mode.  Want to scream........I want this to stop.  I know the only person who can stop this is me.  On a cognitive level I understand that I have a responsiblity to live the best life I can but little ol miss sabotage is alive and well unfortunately.  A component I am missing is compassion.  I do have it for others but little for myself.  To be compassionate towards myself feels almost unbearable.  I have strong messages of I should be able to do this blah, blah, blah oh for a new hardwiring facility which would come easily......... and that is more of the young thinking I indulge in.

Many thanks for your insights,

axa


Leah

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Re: Danger of forgetting
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2008, 01:17:52 PM »
Leah,

It does make sense. I wonder if I have an attachment to being a victim and this may be part of the cycle.  I was always very good on self pity and being a martyr.  In fact I think my script was very tied up with being a martyr.  This was the role of my mother also.  I think I internalised this as if there was some merit in being a victim.  I hate it and I am still hooked on it. 


Dear Axa,

Being a martyr was drummed into me at school (very strict school).  However, I soon knocked that one on the head, during my change of belief, walk of faith, etc.

Can identify will having been in 'victim mode' as we were brainwashed, in just the same way as in miltary brainwashing.

Love, Leah
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO