Author Topic: How normal families work  (Read 2357 times)

steve

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How normal families work
« on: January 12, 2008, 08:30:04 AM »
One big problem I had with not letting go of my relationship with my father is this idea of family piety. We respect the family and believe that somehow if we do not submit we are sinning against the family.

In a "normal" family many individuals are grouped together and interact on many levels. When the choice of the child is in line with the goals of the family, everything moves along nicely. This is what is called a mutually beneficial relationship. We stay in groups because the family achieves more than the sum of the parts. And times will come along when the choice of the child is not in line with the goals of the family. In a normal family the group recognizes the individual and wishes them the best. They are able to realize that the family is a voluntary organization and have no objection to the one they love moving in a direction that they see fit. And in these families that same child also continues to participate in all other activities and is not forced to change their current direction. And again the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Life is beautiful and they all love and respect each other.

Now, one could compare this to a political system and say that I was raised in a dictatorial family and a normal family is the democratic family. This is wrong. The normal family is not democratic but instead a union of equals. In a democratic family, all would vote and the child would have to submit to the will of the majority. This would be the same as saying my family chooses my career path by vote, chooses my choice of spouse by vote, chooses my ... by vote. That is not how it works. We would all be equal individuals interacting together because we are better off than as lone wolves out on a hunt.

Now enter my world. Every decision, every action, every emotion had to be filtered through my father. If it was in line with his wishes then I felt free to move forward. It does not matter whether or not the rest of the family would gain, all that mattered is that he would gain. He speaks of family but in reality, all he means is himself. he could care less for the family except that he realizes that it is a perfect tool for him to get what he wants. So he tolerates the institution simply and only because it serves his means.

Let me elaborate. This is a man who never played with me as a child, this is a man that never taught me how the world works, this is a man that never put his arm around me, this is a man that never complimented me in anything that I did, this is a man that was never around when I needed him, this is a man that never came to any of my school functions, this is a man that never gave me a supportive word, this is a man that never comforted me when I was hurt, this is a man that never respected my privacy, this is a man that never respected my opinion, this is a man ....

Fine, so it was. But this is the positive aspect of being a father. And I could no longer blame him for his misgivings than I can another father for not being available for their children when they needed him because he was working. The difference is that my father was not available because he was either out getting drunk with the boys, out screwing any women who would spread her legs for him, out constantly interacting with anyone else except his family.

But the real abuse begins when it is not the area of omission that he is at fault, but the area of positive action on his part. This is a man who chose a wife for me and made me feel like a piece of shit when I rejected her. This is a man who chose a career for me and refused to talk to me for a month when I chose a different path. This is a man who would forbid me from speaking my mind when it did not agree with his. This is a man .... You get the idea.

So, what do people do when they tire of the dictator. They take him down off his pedestal and move on with their lives. He is no longer their ruler but just another citizen. And in this respect, when I visit my parents, I am no longer visiting my mother and father, but instead, I am visiting my mother and her sperm donor. :)

Steve





Lupita

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2008, 08:51:38 AM »
Steve I have a question, are you the same steve that came a few months ago and said that you were out of all those problems and it even sounded a little arrogant?

because now you sound so human, so sweet, so nice, that maybe I was confused, and you are another person, or something happened.

Hope that you do not mind this question.

Love to you.

Ami

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2008, 08:51:59 AM »
Oh Steve,
  I am sorry. I can see that you are facing more and more of the truth. Your F reminds me of my FIL. He was the "patriach"(dictator)of the family. All children were eventually rejected for "insubordination(living their own lives),except the sister who DID live her life for him.She walked away with the family fortune, which was worse of a "bite",to the two other siblings.
 Steve, there is no way to eke the good out of a situation with an N F.
 It is just painful, painful, painful !
 The best we can do is to face it. You are doing that.
  Maybe, you didn't fall as far down as I did. I was able to forgive my N M b/c I saw how helpless *I* was to pull myself up from emotional 'illness". I was drowning and dying and I was helpless .
 I am still overwhelmed with shame. Shame is what is making your F so 'bad"(IMO)
 He is on the treadmill ,trying to outrun shame. He doesn't know it,of course.
 All his actions are his way of trying to control the world(you, too) so he doesn't have to feel overwhelming shame.
  Compost what does not fit, Steve.        Love    Ami


(((((((Steve))))))))))))
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Overcomer

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2008, 09:02:16 AM »
One thing I noticed that your dad and my mom are very similar.  Any it is hard to read those descriptions because they evoke such negative emotion in me.
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

steve

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 10:23:36 AM »
Lupita:

I do not mind the quaestion at all because I think you hit on the key aspect of the problem. I am that same person that you thought was arrogant and I tried to explain the difference to you and I will elaborate further because I think it is important, and for me, it is the key to getting out of your nightmare, as I have moved beyond it myself.

The problem we tend to have is that we are afraid to put ourselves first, afraid to admit that we are the most important person in our lives, that we matter more than anyone else could possibly matter in this world. We are it, we are all that we could possibly get and to throw ourselves away is just pathetic.

Why are we afraid to say that we are the most important to ourselves? Because we fear that we will become like our abusers. We are afraid that if we care about ourselves we will become self centered and thus be exactly like the people that have hurt us.

But we must remember that they did not hurt us because they were arrogant. They hurt us because they were weak and the only means they had to survive were the means of weak people. Ns can only think of themselves and will behave in such a way that will get them what they want. Well, I too can behave in a manner that puts my needs before all others and thus I seek to get the most out of my life that I can. However, I am not a weak person, and I do realize that if I do not treat people with respect and consideration, they will not give me what I want. I am able to achieve things in my life by working WITH people not THROUGH people. So, do not feel like you can not ask people to do things for you, do not be afraid to have others be your tools to get what you want, do not be afraid to accept the giving of others. Because, you know that at other times you will do for others, you will give yourself up for others, you will sacrifice for others. This is how a bilateral relationship works.

However, Ns also care for themselves and only themselves as I do. But they have weak means to achieve their ends where I have powerful ways. I know that I give and I receive and together we both gain. But for Ns, they take and then take and then take and then take and then take and then take and then take ... but they never give.

Do not be fooled by the illusion, you are not bad to think of yourself and care for yourself, that is basically healthy narcissism. But our abusers have malignant narcissism and only know how to take. They have no respect, they have no consideration, they have no values.

Me, I know how to have respect and consideration and at the end of the day I can admit that I am doing that solely for my benefit. Some might say that I am using that as a tool and I am no better. NO. I am doing that because it serves me and in the process if others can benefit, as the most surely will, then we are both better off. This is the nature of our existence and there is nothing wrong with that.

So, you see I can love and for me love is called respect and consideration. Ns on the other hand cannot love and do not understand respect and consideration.

It may sound manipulative, but if you are honest with yourself, you realize it is just human nature. So, the Person that I am is the person that i show to the world. If I so Narcissistic tendencies the world may move away from me. But if I show the right qualities people will work WITH me and together we will move along this course of life together. And love will exist because I can love someone who respects me and is considerate to me. As I will be respectful and considerate to them.

So bring out that beautiful self that is lying inside of you. Do not be afraid to step forward and show who you are. Because chances are that if you are in this predicament, then you have a big heart. You are able to think of others but never lose sight of yourself.

I hope this helps. BTW, I love the name Lupita, what nationality is it?

Steve


Lupita

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2008, 01:45:04 PM »
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer. I am very surprised. You sound so different. Your approach, the feelings you transmit, your expressions, are totally different. You are a different person.

Now, the secret, please, tell us step by step, what did you do.

Cognitive therapy? reading books? how do you feel now? what were you doing from the last time you were here in the board until now? Did you get professional help? did you do it on your own?

Lupita is not my name. It is just a nick name that I use to imply that I m Latin so, if there is a person who does not like Latins, they can choose not to talk to me.

Lupita is a Mexican name, from the Virgin of Guadalupe. The conquistadores used religion to dominate the indians there and invented the Virgin of Guadalupe to make them feel that there was a Mexican Virgin. They did ic in Cuba too with the Virgin of Cupper, La Virgen del Cobre, and each group conquered by Spaniards have their own virgin.

I have a thread where we talk about age. If you are interested you can go there and post. It is interesting to me to know when did you discover the truth, at what age and how long did you sleep walked through life.

Ami

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 01:47:16 PM »
Dear Steve,
 I am struggling with one thing that you mentioned----having healthy N. It is realy hard to go from a "little voice"(LV) to healthy N. It feels "wrong". In know that this leg of the journey needs to be an embracing of healthy N.
  Steve, thank you, once again, for your wisdom.      Love to You   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

steve

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2008, 06:35:26 PM »
The road I took to get where I am is a road that I do not remember. Honestly. When we think back it is very hard to remember key turning points.

I have read books, I have had therapy, I have talked on this board (actually more posts than come up on here because I used a different name before and cant seem to find my earlier posts).

The key I believe is to find yourself. My therapist told me something important: I need to re-parent myself. i needed to basically become a father to myself. So, having absolutely no role model I did not know where to start. Eventually I decided that if I need wisdom then why not look to the professional prognosticators of wisdom, the philosophers. So I began to read several different works of philosophy: Nietzsche, Kieerkegaard, and a few others. Soon you begin to realize that there are various standards of "truth" and we do not need to be stuck with one. You learn that there is no truth and in the end it is only the truth that you create for yourself that matters.

Now of course, one could go and create a purely malignant narcissistic truth, but that does not seem to serve me. More importantly, I realized that the truth of my past was much more than what I believed. I learned that just as I created my past truth, I can also tear it down. With that realization I became more powerful. No longer do i need to be stuck in the mentality of victim and instead could move along in this world as a person.

The most surprising element of the process was that the world did not come crashing down on me when I changed. You see, the belief that our past determines our future in my opinion is a fallacy. I sit here now and look back and think, what if? This is not helpful because I could not have done anything more than I have done now. I did not know better but as I learned more, I began to realize that yes, if I knew what i know now my life would have been very different. But that does not serve me and gives me no power. That would give the power to my past. No, I prefer to keep the power locked up inside of me and bring it forth as I need it.

You want to change, you want to feel better, you want to find happiness? Simple, PUT YOURSELF FIRST. Try it for a while, try it as an exercise. Do not use it as a trick to manipulate people. Use it as a reawakening. Be yourself and do not fear to be yourself. Because we all know that what the narcissist depends on is us not being ourselves. They want us to act in a certain manner that suits them. But when we put ourselves first we easily see that their power is limited and in fact nonexistent. In fact, you eventually reach a point where what they do or say has very little impact on you.

Don't be frightened. This is an important point. You may fear that if you put yourself first you may become a monster like those that hurt us. But instead, what you will find is that you will see people very differently and will no longer be a victim. If people are genuine and loving you too will be towards them the same. If they are manipulative and self-centered, they will just bounce off of you and will have no power.

i hope this helps. Just remember that it is possible. If you asked me two year ago if I thought I would ever escape, I would have said no. But today I realize that my thinking was very limited then. IT IS POSSIBLE!!!

Steve

 

teartracks

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2008, 11:51:12 PM »



Thank you, Steve.   :)

tt


Bella_French

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2008, 04:55:41 AM »
Steve, I only have one `healthy family model' in my life, and its my natural father, his wife, and son.  I am included in that, now, and what a relief after my family nightmare.

It so different to what I grew up with, and I wanted to say that its not exactly a `union of equals', not really.  A good parent feels more like a `mentor'. The equality is sort of there, but there is a certain balance between mentor/ student that is not the same balance between two peers.

Just my experience,

x bella







 

steve

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2008, 09:20:34 AM »
Teartracks:

You misunderstood. What I was saying is that if you realize how to operate in a union of equals you will no longer be manipulated into accepting any relationship. Those that do not serve you, you will allocate less time to, and those that do serve you, you will allocate more. And as you see the benefits and beauty of these relationships, the hurtful ones will become less important and less time consuming. You will move to spend time in healthy relationships as opposed to destructive.

Let me give you an example. I have a friend who used me as a free source of information. He used me to achieve his business ends by calling, at times daily, to get advice and information as to how to proceed. Well, last week he called me up and told me that he was considering a business deal and didn't know how to develop the financial analysis. He asked me if I could do it for him and he would buy me a dinner. Well, the old Steve would have caved in and looked for approval and would have done it. The new Steve instead told him the following: "I could do the analysis for you but I would charge $150 an hour. And it would in the end be worth much more to you than what I charge. So if you want to obtain this value, you will have to cough up somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000." I have not heard from him since.

Get it?

Steve

lighter

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2008, 10:49:51 AM »
Eventually I decided that if I need wisdom then why not look to the professional prognosticators of wisdom, the philosophers. So I began to read several different works of philosophy: Nietzsche, Kieerkegaard, and a few others. Steve

 



I hope you icluded the great master (of day time TV fatherly wisdom,) Steve.....



Sheriff Andy Taylor. 

::nod::

Hermes

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2008, 06:48:47 AM »
Hello Lupita:

Hope all goes well for you today.

Could I just ask a question:  why would someone choose to not talk to you because you are a Latin?  Is there something perceived to be wrong (perceived by some?) with being Latin, as in being of Spanish, Italian, Portuguese etc. descent.

You have a lovely name, Guadalupe.

All the best
Hermes

Hermes

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Re: How normal families work
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2008, 07:26:01 AM »
Hello Steve:

I so enjoyed reading your very sensible posts.  I know exactly what you mean when you say you do not remember a key turning point.  That was also my experience (although in my case it was an N-spouse).  I am often asked about "how I did it".  Perhaps in some senses, it was easier for me.  I had come from a good and kind family, I had not had any N-experience before that, I had not met insane people, and I certainly do not like abuse or being abused.

One thing is sure, it is difficult to do by yourself.  I found the therapist all-important.  Might I just add here that one does not visit the therapist or psychologist to waste valuable money and time talking about the dismal NPD or ex-NPD.  After my first visit to the therapist, in which I outlined matters, with some reference to the N, after that it was about ME.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with loving oneself, of looking after oneself, and to say that wonderful word "NO" as and when you see fit.

Another most important step, IMO, on the road "out", is not to sit around, especially indoors, moping.  That is a sure fire way of allow Malignant Optimism or worse still, Malignant Nostalgia, to get a hold on your mind. 

What else did I do?  Well, going to the gym helped enormously, in fact next best thing after the therapist I would say.  Then you must eat properly, get enough sleep, and also concentrate on the outer woman.  A little pampering, (not a lot of which happens in N-land) is vastly therapeutic. 
And, work.  Which wonderfully concentrates the mind.

And to quote you Steve:  "PUT YOURSELF FIRST".    The healthiest thing you can do.

All the best
Hermes