Author Topic: Safe People  (Read 32208 times)

Certain Hope

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Safe People
« on: January 27, 2008, 06:24:53 PM »
 Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend -  the authors of the Boundaries books - wrote this one I've been reading...
and I thought that others might be interested in some excerpts and thoughts from it.

The first section discusses the Interpersonal Traits of Unsafe People, beginning with:

1. Unsafe people avoid closeness, instead of connecting.
We were created for intimacy, to connect with others with heart, soul, and mind.
Intimacy occurs when we are open, vulnerable, and honest... for these qualities help us to be close to each other.

We know each other at deep levels when we share our real feelings, fears, failures, and hurts.
This kind of sharing helps us to feel that we are not alone in the world.

(Unsafe people are not willing to share at such deep levels, and so it's recommended to question long term relationships in whichyou don't really get to know the other person.)

"If you spend significant amounts of time with an individual and still feel far away from him/her, something is wrong.
You do not have a connection that's nourishing to the soul.
Furthermore, this can be a signal that real danger is present.
People who are not able to get close often act out their isolation in affairs, two-faced betrayals, broken confidences and trusts, addictions, and a whole host of other problem dynamics."


In the book, these unsafe people are described as possessing a "vacuum in the inner parts" ... an expression which really struck me, because that's just how it feels, when trying to communicate with someone who has no ability - or desire, even - to connect. They'll take and take and never give back, continually vacuuming your very soul for your agreement, your appreciation, your praise and affirmation...  as long as it suits them... and that's the end of the line.

2.  Unsafe people are only concerned about "I" instead of "we".

Here the authors use another phrase which truly startled me, but oh, does it ever fit.
In describing a relationship with a basically "nice guy" who shared common interests, it soon became clear that they were not truly connecting. The fact is:

"What I had thought was a relationship was actually auditory mxxsturxxtion" with the author serving as an audience to this other person's conversation with himself! "What an empty experience!!"


More later...


And now it's later... : )   and I realize that I mis-spoke. The first section of this little book is on the personal traits of the unsafe, not the interpersonal traits... but that's okay, the other is fairly obvious, I think, and I can list those later.

To continue re: the unsafe person's primary concern with "I" and not "we"....

 Safe people act on their empathy.

If you want to know how safe someone is, ask yourself:

"Is this person with me for herself/himself - - or for us?"

There's such a huge difference between bringing your own needs to a relationship (which is healthy and good!)
and exploiting a relationship for your own needs only.

Look for these warning signs:

a) When he helps me, he uses that later to get something from me.
b) I never hear from her unless she's in trouble.
c) I feel like a mirror, as if my job is to listen and approve!
d) I'm constantly on the giving end - financially, time, resources.
e) When my own needs come up, she treats them superficially and then comes back to herself.

Whenever there's trouble, it will generally show in one person being the chronic "giver" and the other being the chronic "taker".

Love seeks the good of the other; it is not self-seeking. So when you evaluate your relationships, look for people who show genuine concern for your welfare, and then
make that concern known in concrete actions!







« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 10:53:29 PM by Certain Hope »

Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2008, 10:50:32 PM »
3. Unsafe people resist freedom, instead of encouraging it.

We can easily cut to the chase on this interpersonal trait.
Ask yourself, 'What does this person do with my "No"?'

In the eyes of an unsafe person, you become "bad" for being separate from them.

Love protects the separateness of the other.
When we are in relationship, the "we" is still "you" and "me".
A safe connection involves two people trusting, opening up, and being honest with each other.
Yet the second great theme of relationship,
after connection, is separateness.

(Safe people don't just accept separateness, they) encourage, value, and nurture the separateness of other people.
Safe people understand that they need their own free choices - and that they need to protect the freedom of other people, two.
You will always find that the best connections embrace the individual concerns of the other person.

4. Unsafe people flatter us, instead of confronting us.

An unsafe person can make you feel very, very good...
and a safe person can make you feel very, very bad.
It can get confusing. How can you tell the difference?

Safe relationships are not just about trust, support, and sharing.
They are also about truth, righteousness, and honesty.
God uses people not only to nurture us, but also to open our eyes to sins, selfishness, and denial in us.

Love also means saying, "but I hold this against you," as Jesus did when He confronted the churches (Revelation 2:4, 14, 20)

Being confronted on character issues isn't pleasant. It hurts our self-image. It humbles us.
But it doesn't harm us. Loving confrontations protect us from our blindness and self-destructiveness.

There is a major difference between confronters and strokers.
Confronters risk our leaving them to tell us a needed truth.
They jeopardize comfort to give us honest love.
Strokers, in contrast, lull us to sleep by idealizing our specialness.
As long as you feel good, they're happy.
This is more addictive, than loving. And it certainly isn't safe.

We all need praise... but praise affirms the truth! Strokers, however, avoid the truth by exclusively praising.

Beware of people who only tell you your good points, justifying it by a desire to be "positive".
They aren't loving you enough to tell you when your attitude or behavior is driving your life over a cliff,
even though you desperately need to know it.


more to come...
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 10:55:41 PM by Certain Hope »

teartracks

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2008, 10:58:40 PM »



Hi Carolyn,

Safe People - one of my favorites.

Thanks for the excerpts here.  I gave my copy to a young woman whose life had taken a dark turn because of some dark choices.  So this gives me a chance to read up.

Another of Cloud's books that I appreciate equally is Integrity.

tt


Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2008, 11:08:35 PM »
It's my pleasure to share what I'm reading here, tt... makes the endeavor less lonesome.

There's so much to learn...

Thanks for the tip re: Integrity. Didn't know they'd written one by that title... busy guys, they are.

Carolyn

P.S. on edit... pardon me, I see you've said Integrity is by Dr. Cloud alone... yes, published 2006.
Subtitled - The Courage to Meet the Demands of Reality -
How Six Essential Qualities Determine your Success in Business.

Cool!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 11:12:18 PM by Certain Hope »

Ann2

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2008, 01:22:13 AM »
Sorry I'm in guest  mode.  I forgot my password.

I just finished reading Safe People and I loved it.  One the the best self help books I've read.

I also boought "The Mom Factor" and will read that next.

I feel sad that I had the need to buy a book to tell me about "Safe People".  Safe People:  What a concept!  Not everyone is safe, don't ya know:  Oh yes, now I know.  I guess I always felt that way, but I never verbalized it.

Overcomer

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2008, 06:43:46 AM »
I have read both Safe People And the Mom Factor.  I understand what you mean Bell but those guys are Christian counselors not counselors who are Christian-meaning they advertise that they counsel through a biblical world view.  It was like when I went to a study at church and she quoted  a women who had great ideas but her world view was different-so the teacher highly recommended the cool but told us that when the lady talked of communing with Mother Earth-she substituted God.
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

Overcomer

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2008, 06:49:37 AM »
So what I am saying is that if you can take what you need and leave the rest that is good.   Now about Safe People.  I think you can tell by the way they make you feel.  I have been chastised by my mom for using the phrase-he will suck the life right out of you.  But I have been with people who eventually suck all of your emotional energy and you finally are depleted and the only recourse is to retreat.  Even if they are nice sometimes they are so needy that they take your life force.
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

Leah

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2008, 07:39:04 AM »
So what I am saying is that if you can take what you need and leave the rest that is good.   Now about Safe People.  I think you can tell by the way they make you feel.  I have been chastised by my mom for using the phrase-he will suck the life right out of you. 

But I have been with people who eventually suck all of your emotional energy and you finally are depleted and the only recourse is to retreat.  Even if they are nice sometimes they are so needy that they take your life force.

"..... eventually suck all of your emotional energy"

Hi Kelly,

That resonates with me, truly.  We had someone last november, kindly mention, that they had read the book;  "EMOTIONAL VAMPIRES"
by Albert J. Bernstein PhD.Subtitled ....... "Dealing with People who Drain you Dry"

Which I later purchased, and have read, all in all, it has been most insightful, teaching, and extremely helpful, with regard to, maintaining my own personal emotional health. 

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=6035.0

Hope your day goes well, at work.

Love, Leah

« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 02:27:44 PM by LeahsRainbow »
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2008, 07:54:44 AM »
Sorry I'm in guest  mode.  I forgot my password.

I just finished reading Safe People and I loved it.  One the the best self help books I've read.

I also boought "The Mom Factor" and will read that next.

I feel sad that I had the need to buy a book to tell me about "Safe People".  Safe People:  What a concept!  Not everyone is safe, don't ya know:  Oh yes, now I know.  I guess I always felt that way, but I never verbalized it.

Hi, Ann,

It's good to read you! I'm not aquainted with The Mom Factor... will check that out!

From feeling so terribly shy and withdrawn growing up to opening my arms wide to a series of unsafe people (in an ignorant determination to overcome that shyness)... well, the experience gave new meaning to the old expression "It takes all kinds."
ugh.

When I told somebody at work that I was reading Safe People, she gave me a strange look, as though - what a peculiar topic of interest! -
lol... oh, well. So many lessons were unlearned before... I am really treasuring this book.

Carolyn

Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2008, 08:10:55 AM »

I really, really loved and appreciated the post and topic, Carolyn. Except for the part where they state that `God uses people not only to nurture us, but also to open our eyes to sins, selfishness, and denial in us'.

I found that part so alienating, and also quite typical of `recovery' type writing. I encounter it all the time. It basically says `recovery is only for those who share the author's spirituality, and the rest of you are excluded'. I felt myself reading along, nodding in agreement with so much of it, and then the preaching part comes up, and I deflate. I'm thinking `oh, you're just another evangelist writing pop psychology' and I feel bad for having listened at all.


Hi, Bella,

I've had that experience, too, when reading psych articles written by authors ranging from supposed-Christians-who-don't-know-Christ
to new-age spiritualists to... well, you name it. Everyone writes from her/his own perspective, out of her/his own worldview.
For me, a crucial part of growing in maturity has been learning to take the good and spit out the sticks.

Re: the specific passage you cited - I didn't read that in the context of a recovery manual, but rather as general life information, a proverb of sorts. And I'm not sure what exactly you think they're saying there... possibly you read it to mean that God does bad things to people to teach them a lesson? That's not my undestanding.
My understanding of the meaning there is that we can learn just as much from those we may perceive as our enemies (if not more) than from our friends.
I believe that there is similar wisdom in every spiritual belief system, possibly phrased differently, maybe referring to the Universe, the Cosmos, or some other entity, and not "God"... and yet meaning the same. There are always lessons to be learned and telling someone the nice, pleasant, politically correct, soothing things is not always the kind thing to do. Sometimes the kind and loving thing to do is to confront - and in that loving confrontation, God will reveal to us the selfishness, sin, denial, etc, within our own hearts.

Anyhow, that was my understanding.

Carolyn

Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2008, 08:26:09 AM »
So what I am saying is that if you can take what you need and leave the rest that is good.   Now about Safe People.  I think you can tell by the way they make you feel.  I have been chastised by my mom for using the phrase-he will suck the life right out of you.  But I have been with people who eventually suck all of your emotional energy and you finally are depleted and the only recourse is to retreat.  Even if they are nice sometimes they are so needy that they take your life force.

Kelly,

After reading some articles about energy vampires this summer, I began to take stock of my personal relationships and re-evaluate them in the light of exactly what you've said - -  How do I feel after interacting with these folks?

In the past, if I didn't feel good about a relationship, I always assumed first and foremost that it must be my "fault" - that I must be doing something wrong and the answer must lie in my own need for an attitude adjustment.

The difference now is - when I don't feel good about an exchange - I still consider my own part in the matter, but I no longer automatically assign blame to myself! Oh, how liberating that has been.

Now I can simply say, "Something is wrong here" - and step away, pray, ponder, observe both self and others, and delay any further exchanges until the picture comes into full view and good focus.

This process can take me a good long time, since I still struggle to name my own feelings and to dig beneath the general sense of being "upset" to locate the real issues. Thanks for your contribution here!

Carolyn

P.S. on edit -  here's the thread from last August on Energy Vampires. Learning about that topic is what got me off the self-blame track!

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=5373.45

an excerpt:  "The psychological dynamics represented by people who inadvertently portray a psychic attacker (energy vampire) fall into five major categories.
Fear is the common denominator in these individuals, and you must learn to protect yourself from their negative influences. 
The five personality types are called -
ethereal, insecure, paranoid, passive-aggressive, and robotic."

The Paranoid Type

Betrayal is the main issue with a paranoid type....

    "Paranoid types are soldiers still trying to win a  war that no longer exists against an enemy that has long since perished.  They do not trust anyone.  Everyone is their enemy and life is their battleground.  Fear is everywhere and an ingrained part of their personality makeup.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 08:29:14 AM by Certain Hope »

Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2008, 10:27:57 AM »
5. Unsafe people condemn us, instead of forgiving us.

When people care about each other, forgiveness restores and reconciles. Forgiveness is the glue of love,
making it possible for love to do what it does best: to "bear all things, believe all things, hope all things,
endure all things".  (Note - this does not mean tolerating abuse!)

Safe relationships are centered and grounded in forgiveness.
People who forgive can - and should - also be people who confront.
When we are made aware of how we have hurt a loved one, then we can be reconciled.

Therefore, you shouldn't discount someone who has "something against you", labeling her/him as unsafe.
She/he might actually be attempting to come closer in love...

(and this is the way that true intimacy is formed and grows!)

When we are forgiven by a safe person, several things happen:

He knows our failings.
He neither minimizes nor excuses our sin.
His love for us is greater than our transgression.
He marks "paid in full" and lets it go.
He stays close to us and doesn't abandon us.

That's why the forgiving person is safe. He sees our wrong and loves us beyond it. And that love helps heal and transform us into the person God intended.

On the other hand, an unsafe person who is unable to forgive can be very destructive.
Instead of forgiving, she condemns:

She centers on my failings.
She won't let go of the past, even when I've confessed, repented, and made restitution.
She uses my weaknesses to avoid looking at hers.
She sees me as morally inferior to her.
She desires justice more than intimacy.

Unsafe people are often good at identifying your weaknesses.
They can quote the minute and hour you hurt them, and recall the scene in intimate detail and living color.
Like a good attorney, they have the entire case mapped out. And you are judged "guilty".

Yes, we need to be confronted with our weaknesses. Unsafe people, however, confront us not to forgive us, but to condemn and punish us.
They remove their love until we are appropriately chastised.
This, obviously, destroys and chance for connection or safety.


... to be continued...

With thanks to all for your comments and contributions!

Carolyn

write

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2008, 12:48:12 PM »
Martin Buber made a differentiation between 'you' and 'thou', a more respectful form of you; I always try to keep it in mind in interactions now, am I a 'you' here or a 'thou'!

Ann2

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2008, 02:00:09 PM »
Hi Carolyn,

You took the words out of my mouth.  I also used to think I was automatically at fault in a relationship, I guess my Mother always or often made me feel that way.  So, this book was like "ahhhhhhhhhh":  I'm not always wrong or at fault because some people just aren't safe.



Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2008, 05:17:46 PM »
Oh, Bella, it's such a pleasure to read your post after a long day... thank you for understanding.
I felt like my reply to you this morning was a bit abrupt and incomplete, as I hurried around, betwixt and between.
Mostly, I recognized how nervous and uptight I can still get when I'm afraid that someone is upset with me... I wish that would fade away, but it's still there.

Thanks to Kelly's reply and your last post here, I have an even better grasp of your perspective on this and very much appreciate your expression of your view. You're very kind and gracious... and that sure builds bridges to understanding.

Please, feel free and welcome to do the same any time when I post this stuff, because I know I'm limited to only my own view and my imagination as to how others think/feel can be pretty dull. ((((((Bella)))))))


Ann....  Amen. Some people are not safe... and some are more un-safe than others... so, a plan of action when such folks are uncovered is what I guess is called for. But I'm only on pg. 51... : )

Love to you both,
Carolyn