Safe People

[Gabben]

Thanks Carolyn - your post is a soothing balm on my achy, fiesty, emotional and tempermental spirit today - hugs.

Lise

[Certain Hope]

Thanks Carolyn - your post is a soothing balm on my achy, fiesty, emotional and tempermental spirit today - hugs.

Lise

Thanks for telling me that, Lise. I have those times, too... plenty of them...
reminders that we're human, I think. Reminders of our need for One greater than ourselves.

Hugs back,
Carolyn



Here's the rest on that third general category of unsafe people, along with the critics and the abandoners... the sort to whom I've often been so drawn... the Irresponsibles.

Irresponsibles are people who don't take care of themselves or others.

They have problems with delaying gratification, they don't consider the consequences of their actions, and they don't follow through on their commitments.

If you depend on them to do what they say, you can end up in financial, functional, and emotional trouble.

If you're drawn to irresponsible people, you may be doing the following:

You pick up after them.
You apologize to others for them.
You make excuses for them.
You give them chance after chance after chance.
You pay for their sins and forgetfulness.
You nag them.
You resent them.

Many irresponsibles are caring, warm, fun-loving people.

There's no place in their head for tomorrow...

They're often empathic and understanding, but while I like irresponsibles... I just don't trust them.

Because the irresponsible has problems in delaying gratification, he or she often becomes alcoholic, addicted to sexual gratification,
and in debt.

You may be providing a safety net for an irresponsible. For some reason, you end up paying for his or her problems.
We could be talking about a friend, an adult child, a spouse, or a business relationship.
For every irresponsible, there is an enabler, someone who protects them.

Next - the personal traits of unsafe people.

[Hermes]

Carolyn:

Yes, we all do have those times, and yes it is human to feel pain, heartache, anger.  IMHO it is inhuman to lash out at someone who has not done you any harm, I don't care how bad you feel.  (seeing perceived slights where there are none).

Sorry, but that is how I feel about it. 

All the best
Hermes

[Gabben]

Hermes,

Are you passively calling me inhuman?

Not nice to insinuate that someone is inhuman, is it?

Please really look at my posts, there is nothing there but my direct and assertive voice.

I'm terrible sorry if you perceive my posts as being inhuman and hurtful, that is not my intention.

It is just my intention to be honest and use my voice.

Sleep well,
Lise

[Certain Hope]

Carolyn:

Yes, we all do have those times, and yes it is human to feel pain, heartache, anger.  IMHO it is inhuman to lash out at someone who has not done you any harm, I don't care how bad you feel.  (seeing perceived slights where there are none).

Sorry, but that is how I feel about it. 

All the best
Hermes

Hermes,

I hear you and I respect your feelings.
However, I do think that "inhuman" is an exaggeration, at best, and a regrettable choice of words.

There've been people both here on this board and in real life whose attitudes (as I interpreted them) were extremely triggering to me... horrible reminders of previous inhuman relationships... especially when it comes to issues of entitlement.

Have you never perceived slights where none was intended? I have. It's easily done, especially in an online environment.
I'd only like to see more benefit of the doubt given and applied... but that's just me.

Sincerely,
Carolyn

[Hermes]

For crying out loud!!!!  I am not calling you ANYTHING

"""IMHO it is inhuman to lash out at someone who has not done you any harm"".  And it is.  It is also most unkind. And no, I have never perceived slights where there are none.  I made no attack on anyone here, I was posting on a subject, and boommmm, out of blue I am blown out of the water.  Please read MY posts.

I do not trigger easily, not any more, not since back in the N-days, but rudeness does get my back up, and sarcasm, well, what can I say. 

All the best and good night to all
Hermes

[Gabben]

Have you never perceived slights where none was intended? I have. It's easily done, especially in an online environment.
I'd only like to see more benefit of the doubt given and applied... but that's just me.

I have too - it is so easy to do here but nothing to be ashamed of or to make others feel ashamed.

Thank you Carolyn for your gentle voice.

Peace,
Lise

[Gabben]

Hermes -- I never meant you harm...I was just speaking up.

Peace and sleep well -- hugs ((((Hermes)))

Lise

[Certain Hope]

Personal Traits of Unsafe People:   (yes, still playing catch-up, since I goofed and began with their Interpersonal Traits)

1.  Unsafe people think they "have it all together", instead of admitting their weaknesses.

2.  Unsafe people are religious, instead of spiritual.

3.  Unsafe people are defensive, instead of open to feedback.

4.  Unsafe people are self-righteous, instead of humble.

5.  Unsafe people only apologize, instead of changing their behavior.

6.  Unsafe people avoid working on their problems, instead of dealing with them.

7.  Unsafe people demand trust, instead of earning it.    (oh, this one really gets me!)

8.  Unsafe people believe they are perfect, instead of admitting their faults.

9.  Unsafe people blame others, instead of taking responsibility.

10. Unsafe people lie, instead of telling the truth.

11. Unsafe people are stagnant, instead of growing.

Reminder:

"One of the things that we want to emphasize throughout this book is that no one is perfect.
Safe people will at times stumble and be 'unsafe' for, after all, they are sinners, too.
So do not expect perfection.

Instead, when you are measuring someone's character, look at these traits in terms of degrees. Everyone lies at some time or in some way. But not everyone is a pathological liar. Look for degrees of imperfection. If a person seems willing to change, forgive him graciously and work with him. But if he resists you, proceed with caution."

[Leah]

Interestingly, Dr John Townsend's more recent book [2004] entitled

"Who's Pushing Your Buttons: Handling the Difficult People in Your Life"


Dr John Townsend in this more recent 2004 book [as Safe People and avoid those people who are unsafe, was written in 1996]

now has an altogether new approach,

in so much as .... not avoiding ....


Book Description

Dr. Townsend introduces a revolutionary approach for reaching out to, confronting, negotiating with and setting appropriate limits for the difficult people in our life. 

From the Inside Flap

You can regain control of your life and stop the stress
 
We all have at least one--a difficult person who know how to push our buttons and make us crazy. When we're really at wits end, our first inclination is to walk away.

But Dr. John Townsend says that in his experience, most people give up too soon on their button-pusher. "They have a limited repertoire of responses, none of which are effective. So they resign themselves in hopelessness."

Instead of leaving your spouse or date, severing family ties, or breaking off a friendship in order to find peace, why not try something new?

In this insightful book, Dr. Townsend introduces a revolutionary approach for reaching out to, confronting negotiating with, and setting appropriate limits for the button-pushers you know.

It's an approach that holds out great hope for difficult people--and great encouragement for those of us who love them.

"Difficult, button-pushing people can and do change, in deep and long-lasting ways, all the time. I have seen it, and many other have witnessed and been a part of it. God has been in the business of changing difficult people for eons." the author of this book assures us. Find out what role you can play in changing your relationship.


~   ~    ~

Which is more in line with how I perceive God in the Bible, as he is very much in the business of us reaching out to people.

Love, Leah

[Certain Hope]

The book Safe People looks at four ways in which sins and wrongdoings against us may have affected our development:

1)  Our bonding process was disrupted.

2)  Our bonding process was disrupted.

3)  We were not seen as whole people, with good and bad traits.

4)  We were not allowed to mature into adults.

Any of these sins against us may affect our ability to form relationships with safe people.

First, re: disruption of our bonding process...

Bonded people are able to reach out for comfort and receive it.
(On a personal note here, I've seen within myself and experienced from others how poorly-bonded folks may even
be able to reach out, and yet find themselves unable to receive such comfort! There is a difference between
recognizing the need for the comforts of relationship and being able to receive safe comfort.)

The bonding process is often disrupted in the following ways:

Detachment: someone being emotionally inaccessible to us
Abandonment: someone connecting, then leaving
Inconsistency: someone being unstable as a love object
Criticism: unloving attacks upon our needy aspects
Abuse: violations of our soul that destroy trust

These problems can be devastating to the long process of learning to trust God and people.
The person who experiences disruption of bonding recoils and withdraws emotionally.

She/he does not experience her/his need, the hunger for love.
Instead, he buries his needs deep inside, so he can no longer be hurt.

This withdrawal is called defensive devaluation.
Defensive devaluation is a protective device that makes love bad, trust unimportant, and people "no darn good" anyway.
People who have been deeply hurt in their relationships will often devalue love so it doesn't hurt so much. And they often become resigned to never loving again.

People who are unbonded do funny things in relationships:
They don't look for safe people: there's no hunger.
They don't recognize safe people: no one is safe.
They don't reach out to safe people: why get hurt again?

Although unbonded people often have friends and families, their isolation is deep and can cause many serious problems.

A person who cannot bond may suffer from addictions, depression, emptiness,
excessive caretaking,
fear of being treated like an object,
fears of closeness, feelings of guilt, feelings of unreality, idealism, lack of joy, loss of meaning,
negative bonds, outbursts of anger,
panic, shallow relationships,
or thought problems such as confusion, distorted thinking, and irrational fears.

Are you unbonded?

Has your ability to be vulnerable, to be needy, to trust been disrupted?
Do you find yourself devaluing safe people?

***************************

Stopping here, because all of the above is what I see in my mother, for one.
She passed on a twisted version of this to me, and through different stages of my life I've acted out the effects of this unbonded/poorly bonded condition
via various means. What I used to think was attributable to fear of abandonment (similar root, but not quite the same) is so much better explained to me by the above...
I am astounded.
Much more to come...

[Gabben]

Dear Leah,

In response to all of the comments on this thread you posted this piece on "pushing buttons." And you brought up the shame dumping thread again.

I could be wrong but what are you trying to say?

I want to hear YOUR voice, not Dr John Townsend's.

I want to know you REALLY think.

I want to hear what you REALLY feel.

I want to hear the REAL Leah...in response to the real people.

I could be wrong but I perceive the posting on this board by you as passive aggression which I have been guilty of myself. But that does not make me an abuser or a NPD or a shame dumper...

How about some compassion....and realization that people feel ashamed, very painful, people hurt deeply...? How about it, can you show compassion? Or, empathy?  I hear what you are not saying...in other words, where is your heart?


But most importantly people are not perfect...and not everyone who expresses anger or lashes out or criticize others, from time to time, but is aware of their deep hurt and human shortcoming is a NPD, shame dumper or abuser...the world is not so black and white, it took me a long time to see it too. But to passively insinuate this IS SHAME DUMPING -- if that is what you are doing....be honest now.


Have you ever hurt anyone Leah? Have you ever acted out passively? Have you ever criticized anyone? Have you ever lashed out while driving you car?  Have you ever lied? Have you ever drank too much, ate too much, cried to much, manipulated too much, slept too much?

I have done all of the above...because I am human and I am not perfect -- but I am trying to grow.

It's OK to be angry and express it.  If this makes you angry, then please express it...tell me how you feel, what you think and what you want.  I can take it...Your voice is precious even if it is angry.

Lise


I am angry

[Gabben]

Personal Traits of Unsafe People:   (yes, still playing catchup, since I goofed and began with their Interpersonal Traits)

1.  Unsafe people think they "have it all together", instead of admitting their weaknesses.

2.  Unsafe people are religious, instead of spiritual.

3.  Unsafe people are defensive, instead of open to feedback.

4.  Unsafe people are self-righteous, instead of humble.

5.  Unsafe people only apologize, instead of changing their behavior.

6.  Unsafe people avoid working on their problems, instead of dealing with them.

7.  Unsafe people demand trust, instead of earning it.    (oh, this one really gets me!)

8.  Unsafe people believe they are perfect, instead of admitting their faults.

9.  Unsafe people blame others, instead of taking responsibility.

10. Unsafe people lie, instead of telling the truth.

11. Unsafe people are stagnant, instead of growing.

Reminder:

"One of the things that we want to emphasize throughout this book is that no one is perfect.Safe people will at times stumble and be 'unsafe' for, after all, they are sinners, too.
So do not expect perfection.

Instead, when you are measuring someone's character, look at these traits in terms of degrees. Everyone lies at some time or in some way. But not everyone is a pathological liar. Look for degrees of imperfection. If a person seems willing to change, forgive him graciously and work with him. But if he resists you, proceed with caution."

Carolyn,

Thank you so much for this excerpt   - it goes hand in hand with what I was trying to express yesterday.  Another soothing balm on my achy heart today.

Thank you!

Hugs,
Lise

[Certain Hope]

((((Lise))))  you're welcome. Amen.

My hot buttons have shifted and relocated, but I still have some... and I can really relate.
Knowing that I used to give some people the impression that I thought I was perfect... well, that has really changed my views.
Here I was, feeling shaky as all get-out, and terrified of other folks' anger, and I had some people telling me that I was intimidating to them... I could not imagine! 

It's most helpful to learn to see ourselves through someone else's eyes.

Carolyn

[Leah]

Dear Lise,

I am very sorry to know that you are feeling angry.  Any anger that you may or may not be feeling, please remember, that that emotion belongs to you, as the owner of that feeling, emotion.

I have been engaged on the board, on and off, for a time today, whereas, you have just signed onto the board, I believe.

I am not feeling angry, not at all, sorry, if that upsets you in anyway, to know that I am not angry.

Please refrain from labelling me, incorrectly, as feeling angry, as truly, I am not.

I have felt peace today, with precious answers, that I have sought during the last few days, after that lady imparted her words to me, in REAL LIFE.

Please know that my life is not centred around the VESMB board.   Which may be a surprise, or not.

This board is about people, in REAL LIFE who are members, and who sign onto the board, to express, their situations, past and /or present, of how they are feeling, how an experience has affected them in some way etc etc., what they are working through.

All to express their own voice, and thoughts, questions, answers, etc etc.

Surprised, that you have forgotton my thread, which I had written that I was sitting with and working on, the day before yesterday,
which I have posted about the lady, onto the Shame Dumping thread, which incidently, i had started that thread weeks ago, and I feel free to, and quite at liberty, to recall it, as and when needed, for my REAL LIFE situation(s), as is appropriate.

As I have witnessed others here too, do, as they have need to.

I have only posted about Dr John Townsend's 2004 book onto this thread, in light of his new approach, in regard of his previous work, in 1996.

That's all, sorry your feel as you do, sincerely.

But, I do not feel comfortable, with you, Lise, in light of what I have read, i.e. the false accusations you are making against me, as admit it, you are jumping to assumptions, wrongly, and attemping to "Fortune Tell" and "Mind Read" from your highly emotive angry feelings, that you own.

I have done nothing to you, Lise, to deserve such treatment, with your words.


However, I understand where angry comes from, now.

Yours,

VESMB member ~ Leah