Victimhood

[Hermes]

Hello to all:

This rather long article has some surprising things to say, and might even be seen as controversial.

See what you think?

Hermes


http://www.zurinstitute.com/victimhood.html#parttwo


""While the media, our teachers, and the milk cartons tell us the danger is 'out there,' in fact, the home and one's own neighborhood are the places where one is most likely to get hurt. Murder statistics shed further light on the relationship between victimizers and victims. It shows that at least 88% of murder victims in the U.S. had an ongoing active relationship with their murderers. The relationship ranged from intimate or close friends (28%), to relatives (24%), and acquaintances and paramours (36%). Only 12% of the cases involved complete strangers (Jain, 1990; Wolfgang & Ferracuti, 1967). The F.B.I. reports that 1.5 million children are abducted each year. The agency also claims that most of these children (80-90%) are abducted by a parent in a custody dispute and not by strangers (Gelles & Straus, 1988). ""

PSYCHOLOGY OF VICTIMS
In order to understand the psychology of victims, we must understand the major characteristics of a victim or what differentiates victims from non-victims. Whether the trauma is domestic violence, sexual molestation, or a hostage situation, the question is: what separates those who overcome the trauma and live life meaningfully from those who suffer at length from acute Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? For example, what separates women who leave abusive husbands from those who do not? Or what separates Vietnam veterans who today live meaningful lives from those who have become drug addicts or live in the mountains as armed survivalists? The difference between victims and non-victims who operate within the same social, political, economic, and legal context lies not in external factors, as is so often argued, but, as described below, in how they view themselves, the world around them, and their relationship to the trauma.

[sunblue]

I found this train of thought very interesting.  It seems our society is so quick to villify those who are "victims", even more so that those who perpetrate the crimes or hurts that causes someone to be a victim.

I have often wondered why some people can bounce back from a negative experience so much easier than others.  I know I no longer bounce back very well.  In my view, it comes down to overall life experiences as well as a person's sense of hopefulness.  A person who has been robbed once will bounce back after a relatively short time.  But the person who has been robbed 10 times may be unable to bounce back so quickly because they no longer have much hope that they won't have to go through it again.  So, if you've been seroiusly hurt over and over and over again, it is really hard to bounce back so quickly.   You've lost hope.  It's like someone who has just had the flu.  Their system has been compromised so it is much more difficult to fight off any other infections or colds that might result. 

Yes, everyone has ups and downs in their lives.  But we all know people who seemingly have way more than their share of downs while others have more than the average share of ups.  Just as having more "ups" in your life might result in a more positive, hopeful and happy outlook on life, the same is true if your reality is the opposite.  TO me, that is simply common sense, reality. 

The other thing I find interesting is that people are quick to judge those who can't bounce back quickly without looking at the reasons underlying that behavior.  Instead, they go out of their way to heap praise on those who get over something quickly.  It is truly admirable that these people can bounce back so well, but I've also found that they are the ones who 1) have a good support system, 2) have lives where the "bad" is balanced equally with "good", and 3) have hopefulness that is grounded in real life experiences.

Just my two cents.

[Hermes]

I think so too, Sunblue.  In particular what you say about a good support system.  It is very difficult to move forward at all without that support system, be it an association, a drop-in centre, good friends, and a therapist.

All the best
Hermes

[Hopalong]

How are you doing, Sunblue?

I hope my last post to you didn't hurt your feelings?
I really wanted you to see how you might need to be looking for love within...

Been thinking of you,
Hops

[ann3]

I was finding the ideas interesting until I read this:

"The events of September 11th did not take place in a vacuum. Related is the thought, detailed in the paper below, that the United States is not necessarily an innocent victim and may need to examine some of its past and present actions and attitudes that may have led to these atrocious behaviors. "

While US foreign policy has its problems, the author seems to be justifying 9-11.  The people who died in the Towers were not asking to be obliterated in a fire ball.  So, I think the author has an agenda and I'm turned off.

To me, it's like saying a woman who is beaten by her husband was asking for it.  I don't like that.

[sunblue]

Hi Hops!

Thanks so much for inquiring....And, no, you did not hurt my feelings at all.....I appreciated what you said...and I know you are right...in the end, you have to find the strength from within....

It just has been a real sobering time for me.......I realize neither my Nmom nor co-D dad, neither "healthy" brother, nor anyone else, has ever expressed any interest in me.  I read somewhere that there is a belief that we each are born into this world with a "theme" or "issue" that we must deal with.  I think mine is rejection.  I have been rejected by everyone in my life---family, friends, liars masquerading as boyfriends, employers, prospective employers.....Over and over again.....  I have been unsuccessful in my very, very long job search...and it is often so frustrating and hurtful.  No matter what I do, I can't seem to dig out of this hole.  It's a vicious circle....you can't take one step out of the hole unless the first thing happens and when it never does, you can't move.  It's like standing still in quick sand.

So, I guess I feel empty and sad, knowing that my family will never change, knowing that no one ever cared enough to take an interest in me......But I'm not commiserating, just continually trying to understand. 

THis week, I taught my 6th grade students (I volunteer at my church) about hopefulness.....I had to conjure up quite a bit of strength to teach that lesson! 

I guess I'm just at that stage when I'm beginning to understand that I will never get the things I want out of life....So sobering.  But I keep trying.  I sent out 50 resumes yesterday, have another phone interview tomorrow....But it's what it is I guess.

Anyway, hope you are doing well.  Your comments are always so insightful and kind and filled with truth.  I think it would be good for me to get away from my Nfamily but I can't do that until I find a new job....So that's why I keep trying.

I've been in and out on the board...so much I could respond to...but sometimes my heart just hurts too much to respond, if you know what I mean......

Hang in there......and thanks for thinking of me...THat really meant a lot.

[Hermes]

Yes, it is a controversial article, although it is not the only one on this particular topic. 

AS for the cults, well I suppose it boils down to some people are more "brainwashable" than others. 

It is all quite complex IMO.

All the best
Hermes

[Hermes]

I will do that, Besee.  Thanks.

I think what I mean is that everyone would be in a cult if everyone was brainwashable.  Most people do not join cults, because they know it is not a good idea, they have the sense to see what is and what isn't.  A lot of people are very gullible.

All the best
Hermes

[Hermes]

Hello Besee:

Shall look at that one too.  What I am saying is:  why doesn't everyone join a cult?  Are some people more "cultable" than others.  They must be.  I had a quick look into Steve Hassan"s site (will look at it in more depth later) but I do not see anything that explains WHY certain people join a cult, and others - the majority - do not.  What kind of person joins a cult, and what kind doesn"t.
I know that some would say that some people are looking for a "family" by joining a cult, or as in the case of one notorious cult, they think they are going to be transported on a spacecraft to a faraway, (and better), world.  I mean, would you believe that?  Would I?  So, what I am driving at is what kind of people let themselves in for being duped in such a fashion.

All the best
Hermes

[ann3]

I started to re-read this article and again, started finding the ideas interesting, but, then I find another indication that the author has a political agenda, and in my point of view, a factually incorrect view:

He wrote "America got into the war in Vietnam and sustained 40 years of cold war to avoid 'becoming a victim' of the spread of communism. Later America felt victimized and threatened by the tiny island of Granada, Noriega of Panama, and Sadam Hussein of Iraq, and more recently by Somalia's so called War Lord Adid."

Not going to discuss US history extensively, but a big reason the US got into the Vietnam war was so that the French could get out of it.  Remember, Indo China (Vietnam) had been a French possession or colony and the French had been fighting there for years and France was very unstable after WWII.  The Vietnam war was an after math of WWII when the European powers began to shed their former colonies.  And, read Marx, a big part of Marxist ideology was to spread their ideology globally, which, eventually caused the US to come up with the Domino Theory.  Let's also not forget that after WWII, the Soviets never freed the Eastern European Countries and basically help Eastern Europe in servitude to Russia until 1989 when the Berlin Wall fell.

I'm not going to get into the omitted facts re: the rest of the statement, but I will say that the author is misleading, over simplifying and contorting historical fact to fit his theory.  I think any nation's foriegn policy is not based on victimhood, but is based on their desire to defend themselves.  Likewise, someone targeted by an N often acts to defend him or herself and those actions are not necesarily caused by victimhood alone.

I am not a flag waiver and, yes, there are many problems with the US and it's foreign policy, but the author's statement is factually wrong for so many reasons, I can't trust the author, although some ideas are interesting.  I say read this with a big caveat, seems the author wants to mislead and brainwash the readers by omitting important facts.

[Hermes]

Indeed CB.  
However, cult usual carries a certain supernatural connotation, not found in other organisations, like marketing, and so on.
I am still astounded by the number of well educated, professional people who were in that crazy cult where they believed that a spacecraft would come to collect them all and take them to a "better place", but you had to kill yourself before the spacecraft could come for you.  I mean!!!, how on earth can you get yourself into that mindframe.  

All the best
Hermes

[Hermes]

Well, I don't know Ann. and I was not particularly interested in the politically focussed part of the article, but more so on the victim-abuser dynamic within a domestic or closer to home scenario. 
I would  never, ever comment on the politics of another country, (and it would be impolite of me to do so here), and truth to tell I am not wildly interested either in the politics of my own country here.   So all I can say is that the author of the article had his own opinions.

All the best
Hermes

[ann3]

Hello Hermes,

I hear you and agree with you.  I see peoples's comments on the article and I want to read it and learn from it  but I keep coming across distorted facts, so I feel how can I trust this author?  Know what I mean?  If he distorts facts in one area, where else is he distorting?

I do not mean to criticize you, but I just want to bring this up because to me, there's misinformation in a couple of places.  But, I'm going to finish reading it.

[Hermes]

Of course I did not think of your remarks as criticism, Ann.  Indeed, you can say what you like to me LOL.  I am a pretty tough lady.  L.

I just thought the article might simply throw some focus of a slightly different kind on the victim-abuser scenario.  The "danse macabre" between the victim and abuser is indeed macabre.   It would seem that the hellish "comfort zone" of actual confrontation, physical, verbal and mental, becomes so familiar as to be almost desirable.  
I cannot remember where I found an article I read quite a long time ago, written by a psych or social worker, which dealt with this issue.

 

""Several women from physically abusive relationships whom I have treated have told me of sensing the familiar buildup of domestic tension, then provoking a fight "just to get it over with." This response is an occasional part of the well known cycle of domestic violence. What is not expected is the answer I often get when I ask about their emotional state as the fighting begins. Several women have thought about it, then spoken of a sense of calm that obviously puzzled them. Given the numbing effects of endogenous opioids, their emotional response to violence may be understandable. Since they do not understand it, their appraisal of their behavior usually invokes shame.

And shame is the bridge to understanding how negative self-appraisal and attachment theory interact with the biochemistry of trauma to further perpetuate the cycle of revictimization. When battered wives were children, those who suffered abuse at the hands of caregivers were at risk to endure understandable threats to their attachment bonds. Disruption to attachment bonds with caregivers due to neglect or abuse produces distorted identity schema resulting in "bad me" appraisals. Not understanding the biochemistry of why they tolerate abuse or feel paradoxically calm when being battered leads abused women to feel shame, which reinforces the negative self-appraisal first put in place by disrupted attachment bonds. So an examination of attachment is in order.""

http://www.aaets.org/article58.htm

[Hermes]

Hello Besee:

Yes, there are similarities between NPD behaviour and cult behaviour.  But they are not the same.  A cult usually has a name to it, such as "Live in the Clouds Forever" (I just made that up!).  A person who presents as perfectly normal is just an individual person who seems to be like other normal people one has met.  No one is telepathic (yet, although I am sure there is some cult out there working on it! LOL), so how would I know such a person is other than normal. 
With a cult, well all you have to do is speak to a member of the cult (the earnestness and desire to save you from yourself will immediately alert you LOL), or to a long-suffering relative of the cult member.  You have something to go on. 

I could, of course, have hired a private eye to check on this quite  "normal presented" person.  Maybe it would have been a good idea, if apparently a little paranoid at the time LOL. 

All the best
Hermes