Author Topic: 'I don't care!'  (Read 3991 times)

write

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'I don't care!'
« on: February 06, 2008, 05:55:08 PM »
it's been said one definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and trying for different results...like most people here I have been trying to change old patterns but sometimes I am just tempted to try one more time with something.

I wrote to my sister, asked how she is, told her about my piece for the radio station party. Her reply was brief:
Very hectic back at work. Having to work a lot of overtime. Still the week is flying by. Starving so going for dinner - then bed!
Take care
XXXXXXXXXX


It's always the same- never any acknowledgement even that she hears what I say, she just blanks me whenever I have had some creative success!

The stuff on self-sabotage and fear of success is a lot of it talking about our imaginary fears and how big they get, but for my pattern I seem to keep trying and trying to engage people who make it clear 'I don't care'.

I'm not saying my sister totally doesn't care...she has lovely moods sometimes, and can be funny and generous. But in terms of a consistent interested warm friend in my life, she never has had and probably never will have any interest in my achievements or my life. It's not about me, I am sure, yet I can't help myself, periodically I try again and see if she's thawed....see if she likes me now....

At least this time I didn't feel hurt, and I rarely call her now or talk in depth about anything, to maintain a relationship I don't try to do one! Because she's my sister. I would have no interest otherwise in maintaining a facade, but I think where possible it tends to be practical in a family.

What do other people think of that?

But I was walking one day and because it was talking to a stranger I said more than I generally would about a guy I had met ( this is about 3 years ago ) who told me he didn't want to see me any more because he couldn't be faithful to any one woman and he knew it would be a problem for me. She looked at me and said 'when someone is telling you something, believe them!'

But not every person speaks openly what I need to know like that.

And yet- I have a habit of engaging with people who do not or can not care fully.

I was thinking about it, someone else said to me 'why bother trying to make relationships with people who don't want one?'

But my empty cold childhood- I had to try, I was so scared and lonely, I can't tell anyone how empty it was, but I saw that movie 'Trainspotting' once, horrible film, but where the baby dies of neglect and the people are all out of it- that was a lot like my childhood. The adults were heavy drinkers, angry, immature, immoral often...it was very rare I could engage with anyone. And I know that's where this pattern originates, and why it feels like my survival depends on it, because in many ways it did. Sometimes I was hungry. I was left to cry when I was too young to take care of myself; my mother told me proudly that her babies never cried after a few weeks. We were teased and treated as playthings. We were left alone from a very young age. Sometimes it was embarrassing, we didn't have the things we needed for school and our activities were arbitrarily started and stopped. My mother quarelled with everyone, neighbours, family, my father....people would be close visitors one month then stop coming and we never saw them again. You couldn't depend on anything!

The guy at church I attached to last year stopped calling after I told him about my illness. That was maybe bad judgement on my part- and will always be an issue as I get close to anyone, there's so much prejudice against mental illness it doesn't matter how enlightened someone thinks they are, it's almost automatic for most people to switch you right over into a bo marked 'the other'. That's quite scary to me, to be rejected for something I can't even help. It meant I wouldn't accept I had the illness for many years, which of course was counter-productive because then I wasn't dealing with it and some of the acting out behaviours of bipolar can be problematic for others.

But even now it's under control I get two responses: you don't really have a mental illness ( the most common one becasue most people in my life have never seen the consequences of not managing it )                                          or: I'm politically-correct so I'll treat you as an equal at work and in social settings, but I don't want to have a personal relationship with you any more!

I'm exaggerating, but that is what it feels like, and I have gone back to a place I rarely disclose. I wouldn't tell a date or a relationship unless we were getting married; I have told friends to help them sometimes, but even that usually backfires, even if they clearly have mental health issues themselves it doesn't help them see 'oh it's not such a big deal' but mostly they go further into denial.

Kay Redfield Jamison goes into this a lot in her writing, she's a successful doctor and writer with bipolar, but has met with unbelievable prejudice at times. And there's nothing can be done on a personal level, though in our society people can't automatically discriminate in the workplace etc.

But that feeling of you just lost someone's affection and respect- I can't describe it, though I am getting used to it, and to pretty-much writing off the person who responds that way.

So- how can I remind myself against this strong pattern of wanting to attach and convince my early family to love me- how can I  break the subconscious pattern affecting relationships now?

I thought I would develop a checklist to start with:

*initiates contact
*there is back and forth reciprocity
*sometimes does a nice spontaneous thing
*is consistent
*level of affection matches rest of relationship- this can be confusing to people of differing cultures
*shows interest in things important to me, shares what is important to them

What else????

~W

« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 05:57:23 PM by write »

Gabben

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2008, 08:33:31 PM »

it's been said one definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and trying for different results...like most people here I have been trying to change old patterns but sometimes I am just tempted to try one more time with something.


Oh, how I can relate!!


I was left to cry when I was too young to take care of myself; my mother told me proudly that her babies never cried after a few weeks.

I have to go soon so I can't write to much here as well as I am still digesting your story still.

I too was left to cry alone in a crib as well as my mom used to say that my sister and I were "good babies" in that we did not cry very much.

When I heard her say that I knew that was a clue for me. Later, I realized that I was conforming to my mom's expectations at my earliest stages of life in order to win her love or keep her from leaving.

The wounding of N goes back to the moments we are born. At times, while healing deep emotional memories, I have actually felt like I am regressing, I feel like an infant in a 39 year old body. Have you ever felt this? Regression is a huge part of healing.

It's always the same- never any acknowledgement even that she hears what I say, she just blanks me whenever I have had some creative success!


So sorry about this! I think that seasons can relate well, her sister is does not acknowledge her either.


We were left alone from a very young age.

Me too -- this will create distress and even a frantic states of panic in adults.

So- how can I remind myself against this strong pattern of wanting to attach and convince my early family to love me- how can I  break the subconscious pattern affecting relationships now?

What a great question. There is a long answer and a short answer. The short answer is to mourn the loss of the love that you did not get from your family such as praise, acknowledgement, unconditional acceptance etc. Those of us from N parents suffer what I call "holes." We will keep trying to fill our holes as long as the hole is there. Get rid of the hole, or fill it with God's love, keep turning to God, he will help lead you to healing the holes.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
Lise



write

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2008, 12:53:18 AM »
I too was left to cry alone in a crib as well as my mom used to say that my sister and I were "good babies" in that we did not cry very much.

When I heard her say that I knew that was a clue for me. Later, I realized that I was conforming to my mom's expectations at my earliest stages of life in order to win her love or keep her from leaving.


Years later I realised what she was talking about had its extreme in 'maternal deprivation theory'.

All the parents when i was parentign my son as a small child either smacked or did this 'witholding attention/affection' thing. I think I had a harder time fo it then because my son was a handful and sometimes situations went on and on, but as he goes into teens he seems much more expressive and happy with himself than some of the other kids. He's still very affectionate with me and his dad though I am not allowed to be so in public or any room with windows!

Get rid of the hole, or fill it with God's love, keep turning to God, he will help lead you to healing the holes.

God is a big part of my healing, the closer I heal the closer I am with G_d and vice versa. I don't feel any need for religion, but some for community so I go from place to place and have become accepted even loved at a couple of places.

Do you feel healed Lise? Are we ever entirely 'complete'?

*

I had a happy evening, went to Ash Wednesday service. Don't take part in the rituals, but it is moving to be there.

Then rehearsal was cancelled so i went to watch a movie home on my own- 'life or something like it' it was really pretty especially the cinema.

I'm just now able to be alone and happy, as you say being left alone was a panic for a long time.

The cats don't leave me feeling too alone either- they are liek two shadows following me aroudn the apartment.

I love my new home, it is so happy and peaceful there, I am so lucky.

Think of Hops too, enjoying solitude after enforced companionship...

I feel like an infant in a 39 year old body

absolutely.
I have even had people comment that I appear more youthful in the last couple of years!
Cells are regenerating which had given up before, I'm convinced.

Good night, G_d bless everyone.

Love
~Write

axa

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2008, 03:35:29 AM »
Hi Write,

Your post about your childhood is very similiar to mine.  I think I went all out to connect with people because I so desperatly needed to feel connections but underlying this desperation for connection was and is a terror of others and a profound lack of trust.  I am getting better and find being more self sufficient around my emotional needs helps.  I feel like I don't have a close connection with anybody but I am ok with that because I do, at last, feel connected to my self. 

I learned reaching in is where the real comfort is.  About your sister, I know this form of communication very well. You must remember she had the same parents as you.  I have little expectations from communication any more with my siblings.  I know before I pick up the phone what way the conversation will go and I take responsibility for making the phone call - with no expectations it really is easier.  With one of my sisters, she will tell me about herself, her kids, her life, her holidays etc.  she will not ask about me and under no circumstances does she want to hear anything emotional about me.  And that is how it is.  You may ask why do I call her, well I dont do it very often and when I do it is to hear the sound of her voice, which holds some meaning for me............don't know what. 

xxx

axa

write

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2008, 12:02:53 PM »
underlying this desperation for connection was and is a terror of others and a profound lack of trust.

I hear you Axa, that's exactly what I've been working to wrap up this past couple of years....how to do intimacy in a healthy way.

I think many of my responses in the past even to genuine people have been neaurotic insecurity.

You may ask why do I call her, well I dont do it very often and when I do it is to hear the sound of her voice, which holds some meaning for me............don't know what. 

I know exactly why, I am the same. And occasionally we'll have a good laugh and feel connected for a while, it just never lasts. Much is for expedience too- I really believe it's best to keep family relationships on an even keel where possible,so often you have to keep meeting or dealing with life's difficult issues with these people from the past.

My sister and I wrote a couple of poems together back and forth last year, that was about as close as we've ever connected, but I think she felt she was humouring me too. Nothing is ever permanent with my family except that constant clinging to disappointment....they really are not a dynamic or forward-thinking group of people. Whenever I do something new the most common response, if there is a response, is 'why?'

that sense that you carry around with you all the past betrayals and they seem to be part of the fabric of who you are.

Hi CB. I think on some level, maybe my spiritual and practical ones, I felt I was meant to change things, to facilitate new relationships in our family, to be the one who broke the pattern. I remember talking to my sister a lot when her son was small, she and I had very different values about parenting, and I think I interfered sometimes, called up to read to him at bedtime,  sent him books and letters. She saw he enjoyed me and tolerated it but I think like everything with my family- there is always a secret resentment, and that's where 'betrayal' comes in. You find out later people didn't really like you, I guess.

When my sister was at university we once wrote a piece together on euthenasia, it was a brilliant piece of writing but the main thing I remember was a sense of doing something together, feeling connected. That's what writing the poems was trying to rediscover but it wasn't the same. The spark has gone out with my sister, all her dreams- she says it's silly to dream now, it's like she's waiting to get old. At 40. She climbed onto this treadmill and keeps running it but she resents anyone who doesn't believe that's not the way to live. She smokes again now too, after a few years of being healthy she just took up again. I think it was symbolic. And she doesn't say anything much to me about why. Her husband seems to be an alcoholic but we're not allowed to call it that. Her son has escaped, gone to live in france; she constantly wants him back and I have encouraged him to do what he wants and to believe the world is a rewarding place too. There's all these tensions, and no resolution.

when I called my Dad to see if he even wanted company, his response was "I don't care".

Hi PR. Perhaps he doesn't care about himself, thus cannot care about anyone else?

It's a hurtful thing to say. ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) It closes down all conversations, all connections. Nothing to be done once someone voices 'I don't care'.

Spoken or unspoken- and I will learn to reognise unspoken 'I don't care'!- it is like a black hole the uncaring in the world, sucking energy and life out of every situation. Maybe we should train our kids to care better, make them realise there is no 'them' to take care of business, to take care of each other, just us, here and now, bringing love and creativity into our world....

write

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2008, 12:32:24 PM »
How people show without necessarily speaking it 'I don't care'

*touches aggressively; people from some places seem to do this culturally, like my friend from NY who constantly 'slaps', but it seems significant
*does not initiate contact
*blank stares in response to something already discussed/agreed
*anger for no apparent reason or out of proportion to event
*cuts you off more than once in a conversation
*disagrees even if irrational eg says 'no I'm not tired' when they just complained of no sleep last night
*excludes you from plans but makes sure you know about them
*changes subject when you are enjoying conversation
*witholds affection
*is resentful of any attention you get
*is inconsistent
*is rude
*will not be direct even when asked, evades question
*is unfaithful in a sexual relationship
*'forgets' a lot
*breaks arrangements, is unreliable
*passive aggressive anger: sighs, eye rolling, tutting etc
*breaks a confidence
*talks behind your back
*ignores things which knows are important to you
*spoils something for you
*breaks or is neglectful with your things- if this happens more than rarely it's intentional!
*doesn't give gifts or gives gifts guaranteed to disappoint- like something obviously discarded or thoughtless
*is regularly tactless even after having it pointed out
*likes to argue
*is unmoved by signs you are upset
*doesn't ask questions about your day/life
*never reciprocates
*makes no attempt to disguise jealousy or control rage
*walks away during conversation- even important one
*ignores requests or communications
*encourages an addiction or problematic behaviour


« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 10:21:16 AM by write »

write

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2008, 10:23:50 AM »
I'm going to come back and update this list every time I think of something or something new happens! When i think it's complete I'm going to keep it by my bed until I have all the behaviours noted and memorised- and then every time someone does one of them to me or someone else I'm going to take notice of what happens...how it feels...

papillon

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2008, 04:38:13 AM »
Hi write, when you wrote this I found it so valuable, and have chewed it over quite a bit.

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and trying for a different result..


"And yet- I have a habit of engaging with people who do not or can not care fully."

But my empty cold childhood- I had to try. I was so scared and lonely, I can't tell anyone how empty it was......

You couldn't depend on anything......





Hi write, if you're reading. In the context of what you wrote it was very intelligent and logical for a small child to love her carers, regardless and in spite of your carers qualities, actions and attitudes. They were your source of survival so of course you had to bond.

This is so true for abused children.  Whenever I was asked the question "How could you stay with .....?" or "How coul you love.....?" Those sorts of questions.

Any professional asking me that question had better be also able to answer me  about it as well; (just be testing my self-awareness levels) or I'll lose confidence in them immediately.

It was 'normal reality ' to love people who didn't love me, it was all I had. And because it was all I had it never felt stange to me at all until I experienced my own identity crisis and recognised my own repetitive, lonely, depressing patterns. Thanks for the illumination write, and I hope you're okay

Papillon


lighter

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2008, 07:51:56 AM »
So happy to see Write and CB here.

(((Write and CB)))

I liked Ambers idea of just choosing to love those who love us, instead of trying to get people who don't want relationships to be interested or loving.

Great thread.

Lupita

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2008, 08:17:24 AM »
Hi write, about your sister ignoring your success, I dont know if this would give you any consolation, sometimes, knowing that others have a sililar problem, makes you feel a little less lonely. So, I wanted to share with you something that just happened to me.
I had a week of hell at my work, school, last week, I mean the week before this one that just ended. But this week that just ended I had a decent time. Only one bad day, during that one bad day, all my classes were excellent except the last class, sixth period in wich only one boy was terrible, just one. So, just one day bad, and of that day only one boy was bad. So, after looking at the big picture, I wrote an e mail to my mother telling her how much  I priased the Lord for having at last one good week with minimum problems, and how I loved those boring days in which nothing happened, how much stressed I was before and that I was feeling peace for the first time ina long long time, also that I was thankful to the Lord because after one day of peace at wrok I felt satisfied with my self and only praide for my son's welfare and that was all I needed to be happy.
She wrote me back telling me how sad she was that I did not mention her welfare in my letter. How come I could feel happy with only having peace at work and my son being fine, when I have not mentioned my mother being well too. Then she preceeded to tell me that because she is a good mother, no matter what, she still is going to pray for me every day so I can have a good day at work. She almost ruined the only day of peace I had in such a long time.
So, I just wanted to tell you that I relate so much to you and your lack of validation. It is me too.
So, lets cry together and survive it together. LOL.
Love to you, sister.

Overcomer

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2008, 08:57:56 AM »
Good thread and good to see your name CB.
Kelly

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Lupita

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2008, 09:11:58 AM »
OC, I was happy to see CB there too, but it is 02/07, way before she decided to leave. So, I am sad that no, she has not come back, or so I think. I wish she came back.

Overcomer

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2008, 09:15:46 AM »
Oh.  wow.  my bad
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

lighter

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2008, 09:44:20 AM »
Lupita.... it's like your mother wants you to mother and be responsible for her feelings too.

It's not appropriate and she's trying to make you feel bad and guilty.

Question.... what did you expect her response to your e mail to be?


Lupita

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Re: 'I don't care!'
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2008, 02:22:21 PM »
I dont kow hw to answer, you cought me off guard as my mother did. I was not thinking wha she was going to say. I was just disgusted, not surprised, that hse found something bad in a positive letter.

She has never been happy for any kind of achievement on my part. I was the winner of a choir contest ten years ago, I was still living there, my picture and my choir was in all the news papers of the city. She did not even called me, nor anyboyd fo my family called me. I had noby to share my triounph.

I played a concertto for piano and orchesta for which I recieved standing ovation, she said she could hear all my mistakes, just as I was coming from the stage.

So, I should not be surprised.

I do the same to my son, but thank God I do that only with girlfriends, nothing else, still bad, but not as bad as my mother. I am better. I think.