Author Topic: The projection Machine  (Read 12368 times)

Gabben

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The projection Machine
« on: February 07, 2008, 08:17:53 PM »
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The Projection Machine   I like this article because it makes the distinction between normal projection and N projection (Is is not so cut and dry -- we all project to a certain degree but what is N and what is normal?).             

Narcissists don't just project their faults and failings (character flaws and bad acts) onto you, they also project their feelings, emotions, and beliefs onto you. Actually, "into" you (See Projective Identification next).

The projected beliefs may be beliefs about themselves or beliefs about you or beliefs about anything. In fact, in posing to the mirror of your face, they are projecting their image onto you = their belief about themselves onto you.

The projected feelings and emotions may be positive ones or negative ones that they want to get rid of.

Note that the narcissist projects both positive and negative things onto you. In projecting positive things on you (e.g., his grandiose false image) he is using you as a mirror.


 


In projecting negative things on you, he is using you as a dumping ground.


 

Here we focus on the bad, or negative, things narcissists project, their faults and failings in particular.


 


When narcissists slander and calumniate you, they have two objectives. One is projection, and the other is to muddy a bright spot in your character with whatever slander or calumny they're projecting at you. It's as though any shine on your image diminishes the glow of their glory.

Don't take my word for it: test a narcissist. Praise someone before a group and see what happens. The next day the narcissist launches a smear campaign against that praised person.

This is, of course, the mentality of the rapist, who must tear others "down off that pedestal." The narcissist just does the deed in a non-sexual way.

Now, you'd think it would be hard to accomplish both objectives — projection and smearing — at the same time. But it's uncanny how narcissists manage to do so! It's all in the way they word their "line" on you. They are glib and amazingly adept at killing two birds with one stone: they not only ditch one of their faults, they muddy one your virtues in the process.

Note that in doing this, the narcissist isn't attacking your faults and shortcomings: she is attacking your virtues and accomplishments. Consequently, when she is conducting a campaign of character assassination against someone, the arrows she shoots never hit one of that person's real flaws.

The result is something like Dr. Frankenstein accomplished with body parts. A chimera. The narcissist's false image contains the virtuous qualities in other people's characters, and their images have had those virtuous qualities replaced with the flaws in the narcissist's character. In other words, the narcissist steals your virtues and dumps on you her faults.

In doing so, the narcissist is stealing your identity, pulling an identity switch with you, piecemeal.

Carolyn -- this what you mean, correct? Invasion of the body snatchers!


 


It's a kind of magic, an illusion created with nothing but words, which can warp perceptions by making anything of anything.

For example, let's say that the narcissist is stingy and that one of your virtues is that you are outstanding for your generosity. She hates the glow of that shiny spot in your character, because it serves as foil to her stinginess, making it more noticeable by contrast. So she muddies your image and glorifies her image by misappropriating your generosity to herself and misappropriating her stinginess to you.
 
 
   
 
 How? She goes around lying about how much she gives to charity and about helping people out all the time. More important (since one must be careful and subtle about boasting), she just makes everything she does sound generous. She also goes around telling lying stories about you, stories that have you being stingy. More important, she makes everything you do sound stingy, however generous it manifestly is. In The Art of Lying I gave an example of how a narcissist can make one $500 purchase sound like payment for room, board, toiletries, cigarettes, and laundry services for twenty years — in order to unsound like a freeloader. 
 
   
 
 

This is what makes narcissists stand out. Normal people do project. They sometimes even smear. But not in such a calculated fashion. In "What Makes Narcissists Different" (in What Makes Narcissists Tick), I enumerated the difference between the way normal people project and the way narcissists do:

 · Normal people project when put on the defensive. Narcissists project in unprovoked attacks. 
 
   
 
 
 
 · Normal people don't smear themselves off on just anyone. They wouldn't dream of harming those near and dear. All people are nothing but objects to narcissists, so they smear themselves off on their own parents and children as thoughtlessly as we smear ourselves off on a towel. For no reason other than to cause pain, they will say anything — ANYTHING — about them, without a second thought. 
 
   
 
 
 
 · Normal people are likely to shake themselves off on whoever happens to be near at the moment. So, they sometimes project a flaw off onto someone who actually has it. But narcissists project ironically, accusing those with the corresponding virtue of a vice. 
 
   
 
 
 
 · Normal people stick to slander (which has at least some degree of truth in it), rarely engaging in calumny (lies). When they do calumniate someone, they at least have a natural reason for animosity toward the target. Narcissists are perverted. There is no natural reason for what they do. 
 
   
 
 
 
 · Even when normal people do calumniate someone, they don't go hog-wild and calumniate that person so badly and so widely as to destroy them and ruin their whole lives. Narcissists do go hog wild. They are mental children and therefore as dangerous with their mouths as an angry five-year-old with an assault weapon.    This is hilarious!
   


In fact, a narcissist is most likely to smear off on someone he owes gratitude, because needing help damages his image. So he repays help as though it were an insult. He must devalue it by devaluing the giver of it, as if such a contemptible person is incapable of really helping someone as grand as he.

Unlike narcissists, normal people don't do it because damaging others makes them feel good. In fact, doing this makes a normal person feel ashamed. But it makes a narcissist feel grand.

When it's fully conscious calumny a narcissist is spreading, he just thinks it's funny that people are such idiots that he can get away with it, feeding them ridiculous lines about others. Lines that are preposterous in the light of the target's known conduct. The narcissists I have known all let it show at one time or another that they had nothing but contempt for the people who believed them. I am sure that a narcissist views his success at lying as proof that he is brilliant and that all mere mortals are as stupid as sticks.

Narcissists aren't projecting guilt so much as they're projecting shame. In fact, it may well be that they have no concept of guilt and have it confused with shame. Which is pain.

So this wicked behavior is a way to ditch their pain onto you. It's a psychological painkiller, like a drug, and that's why causing you pain makes them feel good.


Here's an example of a famous smear that illustrates how it works.

The first thing people noticed about Jesus of Nazareth was that, unlike the other prophets, he spoke on his own authority, appealing only to logic, and never prefaced his teaching with "God says…." This is but one of many examples of his exceptional care to avoid blasphemy. He went way beyond custom in this regard. His tremendous reverence for the name of God was his most glaring virtue, because he put everyone, including the prophets, to shame in this.

Okay, so, if you or I wanted to smear Jesus, blasphemy would be the last thing we'd accuse him of, right? Because that accusation would be laughed at as a joke.

Or would it?

Well, whether people would get the joke or not, we're normal, so we'd accuse him of something believable, like being a drunk or something. But that isn't the way a narcissist thinks.

The narcissist(s) in the Sanhedrin who plotted against Jesus went right for that greatest shining virtue of his in leveling the charge of blasphemy against him. They just had to muddy it o'er.

Unbelievable. Yet the people believed it!

And consider the source of this accusation. Look who's accusing him of blasphemy. The Sanhedrin, blasphemously acting in the name of God.

In other words, in the very act, they were projecting the blot of their sin onto his outstanding virtue.

Unbelievable. Yet the people believed it.

Near the beginning of the Spanish Inquisition, a Spanish archbishop or cardinal (whose name I forget) remarked that the accusations leveled by the Inquisition were so widely believed because people are much readier to believe the unbelievable than the obvious. He said a mouthful.


I call narcissists "projection machines." I am convinced that projection is a knee-jerk reflex in them. That is, whenever a moment of self-awareness threatens to let them know a flaw in their character they're revealing or some bad thing they're doing, they instantly go into denial about it (= repress conscience of shame) by projecting the semblance of that flaw or misdeed off onto the handiest scapegoat — usually the very victim of whatever abuse they're dishing out.

How's that for maximum irony? Hence, while hurling a hailstorm of wild accusations at you, you can count of one them being that you are hurling wild accusations at them. Every single time. They can't help it. I think they have been twisting their thinking for so long (since early childhood) that twisted thinking is hard-wired into their brains. I think projection is such an ingrained habit in them that often they're unaware that they're doing it.

Projection is such a reflex in them that they give themselves away by some of the accusations they hurl. For example, if a narcissist says he fears you might attack him physically, look out: he is at least pondering whether to attack you physically. If she says she fears you might get into her bank account, know that she is at least pondering getting into yours. Every single time.

Narcissists aren't the only people who project. But they are different in that they have done it so much for so long that they do it like a machine — automatically, every single time. And they rarely hit one of the target's real faults. Instead the accusation is a joke, smearing one of that person's virtues as a vice.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 08:40:15 PM by Gabben »

Certain Hope

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2008, 10:06:27 PM »
Oh, my. Just read the very first part and it dawned on me... that's why - if NPD thinks you're really a good person, she/he will turn on you when she's shamed and accuse you of always thinking you're right or the better than she is!! !! !!!!!
That's a form of positive projection gone bad!!

"The projected beliefs may be beliefs about themselves or beliefs about you...."

So - if N has seen something admirable in you, you are reallllly in trouble!

And this:
It's as though any shine on your image diminishes the glow of their glory.

Don't take my word for it: test a narcissist.
Praise someone before a group and see what happens.
The next day the narcissist launches a smear campaign against that praised person
.

YES!

And this:

The result is something like Dr. Frankenstein accomplished with body parts. A chimera. The narcissist's false image contains the virtuous qualities in other people's characters, and their images have had those virtuous qualities replaced with the flaws in the narcissist's character. In other words, the narcissist steals your virtues and dumps on you her faults.

In doing so, the narcissist is stealing your identity, pulling an identity switch with you, piecemeal.

Carolyn -- this what you mean, correct? Invasion of the body snatchers!



Yes, Lise, exactly!! This is amazing.


On edit:  okay, I just finished reading in its entirety and I am speechless. Lise, this is absolutely THE all time best article I have ever read on the topic. Totally nails it, in every way. Thank you!!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 10:26:21 PM by Certain Hope »

Ami

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2008, 07:21:01 AM »
Wonderful,information,Lise!   Thank You.                                                                 Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Certain Hope

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2008, 08:52:11 AM »
Hi, CB,

I hear what you're saying... and I agree that N's are not the only folks who can cause great damage in our lives through their talk and actions.

I didn't read the article as you apparently did, though. About this part, you write: 

What is striking to me, is how the author distinguishes between a non-N who slanders, lies and projects and an N who does all the same things.  It appears to be a matter of degree and motivation, which seem to me to be rather subjective criteria.  I suspect that the real distinguishing point is whether or not the person doing the slandering, lying and projection is the author (or someone they sympathize with).

I can't fathom the fine point of degree in this situation.  A normal person only slanders if they a "natural reason for animosity"????   


From my understanding, the projection of a non-N is not the same as that of N... and that was kinda the whole point. So it's not true to say that non-N's do "all the same things".  And it's not just degree and motivation, it's also the warped-ness of the whole thing. Here's the point where I think another word should have been used instead of "slander". (Again, this is only my own understanding of what I read here)... 
a Non - N person may speak poorly of another because of "natural reasons for animosity" means to me, for instance, that I may tell you what a pain in the butt this woman at work is, because she consistently refers to me as though I am HER personal hired help/assistant - - - and I'm not. I sense that she does this because she feels threatened by me, and yet the fact is, although I work in the same building and perform a similar function, my job is totally independent of her and hers.

So - I have a valid reason to fuss about this woman. Is that slander? I don't think so.

mm.. not sure I'm being clear, probably not. Anyhow, I don't think the distinction is nearly as subtle or difficult to make/subjective as you might think.

Love,
Carolyn

P.S.  (((((((((CB))))))))) I am so sorry you've had to endure that sort of nonsense at work... peer envy is a horrible thing, but you know - - some of those people would be spinning nasty yarns out of thin air even if that jerk hadn't lied about your promotion, simply because they seem to have no lives of their own and feel compelled to create soaps out of the lives of individuals who intimidate them... and I suspect that you do that, completely unconsciously and unintendedly, simply because you're... well, extraordinary.
sheesh, I need coffee. Anyhow, hope that made sense... twas a compliment.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 08:56:59 AM by Certain Hope »

Gabben

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2008, 12:14:45 PM »
I just went through this with coworkers that I would not characterize as N's.  But the slander was significant and probably simply the result of a boring job with long hours and no future coupled with how interesting my activities were to them.  It felt hogwild to me.  But when confronted, they said they were only joking and I should quit taking things so seriously. 

Recently I found out that my supervisor had justified his decision to promote me past someone else who had been in line for the job, by telling the entire kitchen that I was friends with a corporate bigwig (someone I have never met), so he was forced to push me past the other applicant who had been promised the job.  Only now, after almost a year, do I realize what that lie cost me in my relationship with my employees.

Wow CB, sorry for that grief and pain you had to endure. Slander really is evil or poisen. What amazes me is that the person who does the slandering so often gets aways with it, or at least is able to find a captive audience who seems to have an invested interest in believing the lies of the slanderer. Or, even if the slander is telling the truth rarely do the motives of the slander get questioned.

I have heard people say things about other people, I question them as they are speaking and ask them to clarify what need they have to say such things. Sometimes we really need to just find a friend to talk to about the wrong someone has done us -- I'm learning that is the time when we need to find someone far removed from the situation who can hear our pain and just let us work through it without getting involved in the situation.

In ministry I have mande such mistakes, we are such a small circle of connections (actually rather large) but we all know or have heard of each other so we have to be very careful. Once, I needed to talk to to a girlfriend of mine about some pain I was going through because of the actions of another. I had no motive to sway her or get her against this person. But half way through my outpouring of pain I realized that I was doing damage to my friend, putting her in an awkward position -- I stopped and apologized to her even though she wanted and encouraged me to continue sharing. I told her that I would take it to my therapist and that I needed to work on impulse control, still :)

The distinction I wanted to make was that we are all human and prone to having our instincts threatened. Hopefully, we grow and realize how our behavior affects others and we make corrections, hopefully -- on planet wishfulthinking :D

But I know that I have a heart, I care and I lose sleep over my wrong behavior and will extend compassion for any hurt I have caused others or I will recognize their pain. That is the difference between having a conscious/heart and not having one. Or perhaps the difference is about willingness to outgrow N traits vs. continuing to live in N behavior patterns. Also, there is in me the desire to grow to be a more loving person and to NOT hurt people.



Anyway, that's my perspective.  I guess I am offering it here because it can be so devastating when you assume that you are safe from this kind of thing simply because you are not dealing with an N.  That seems to be a double blow at this point in recovery--if one thinks that by carefully constructing life to exclude N's will make one safe from someone Else's defense mechanisms.

CB - I appreciate your perspective and I agree with you about not disillusioning others to assume safety simply because someone does not fit the N profile yet does N behavior. Any behavior that is selffish, inconsiderate, dishonest, and fearful is going to have a negative affect on others and cause pain. We are human and all prone to step on each others toes.

Peace,
lise
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 12:56:28 PM by Gabben »

Certain Hope

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2008, 10:00:42 PM »
In fact,
the narcissist's depiction of you will be downright ironic in certain particulars.

Your good qualities will all have been painted over with the semblance of their opposite.

That's because a narcissist must be better than you, so she must paint over any shiny spot in your image that diminishes the glow of her glory, especially one that serves as a foil to any blemish in her character.

For example, your generosity makes her stinginess more noticeable by contrast, so she must pull the switcheroo with these character traits in her depiction of herself and you.

In other words, she is composing her "My Life" by filtering and editing reality on the fly as the material to base this work of fiction on. That's how she denies what she really is and identifies with her false self, a work of art, instead.

She must, for to be a narcissist is to be someone who cannot bear to know themselves.

teartracks

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2008, 11:48:16 PM »
Hi everyone,

Anti social,  Non N slanderer -  Does it to hurt someone else intentionally or selfishly lies to protect the self at the expense of another, and/or to conceal a misdeed.  (Excellent Example Exerpted from CB's post:  Recently I found out that my supervisor had justified his decision to promote me past someone else who had been in line for the job, by telling the entire kitchen that I was friends with a corporate bigwig (someone I have never met), so he was forced to push me past the other applicant who had been promised the job.  Only now, after almost a year, do I realize what that lie cost me in my relationship with my co-employees.

Their (the anti social) activity may involve collaborators or volunteers caught up in  collective contagion, emotional congation, groupthink, cognitive contagion and the list goes on.  In my mind a person who participates in anti social lying, slander, and projection to hurt someone else intentionally may have the capacity to repent, change, make reparation, etc.

N slanderer, liar, projector, is not necessarily preoccupied with culling  potential victims based on the positive or negative collective thought of others or whether they like or dislike the potential victim.  They are completely indiscriminate in this regard.   They feel entitled and the what's, who's, when's where's or the why's or how come's are way down on their list of qualifications (if at all) when it comes to choosing a victim.   In my mind the person who fits this description has little to no capacity to repent, change, make reparation, etc.

tt

« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 12:14:22 AM by teartracks »

axa

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2008, 01:11:17 AM »


Hi,

I think that we get into dangerous ground when we try to split hairs over such behavior.  Slander is slander.  It isnt understandable in a non-N.  I don't think that N's are calculating (sociopaths probably are--but N's and sociopaths are not synonymous) .  I think they react instinctively to a perceived threat.  I think that the hopelessness of the situation is NOT that they know what they are doing, and do it anyway--but that they truly believe that their behavior is justified.  I sincerely doubt that the "normal" person feels shame when they slander or lie.  There is usually some mental justification that goes on to make it seem reasonable.  And the sense that the slander has gone hogwild is usually in the eye of the slandered.[/b

My experience was that XN would do it just because he could.  He did not need a threat, perceived or otherwise but then he did say he was a sociopath as well as an N so.........  I believe XN enjoyed being cruel, imo just to show how cruel he could be.  Also, I do know that if I act out and say something inappropriate about someone else I do feel shame when I reflect on it.......... think I am sort of "normal"

Sorry you are had to experience these games at work Cb.



I think that because I had already come to grips with the fact that there is not a certain class of people (N's) who do the real damage in relationships, this new bit of knowledge didnt rock my world too much.  But I can't accept the fact that some lies and some slander is understandable because of who it comes from.  Or that it is less damaging. 

Of course it is hurtful and damaging CB.  I think I had a sense of it being Ns or Us.........am also learning this is not so. 

Anyway, that's my perspective.  I guess I am offering it here because it can be so devastating when you assume that you are safe from this kind of thing simply because you are not dealing with an N.  That seems to be a double blow at this point in recovery--if one thinks that by carefully constructing life to exclude N's will make one safe from someone elses defense mechanisms.

Sounds like we are encountering similiar experiences CB.  One thing though I feel less vulnerable and I am grateful for that.

xxx
axa

CB
[/quote]

alone48

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2008, 01:23:25 AM »
They can't help it. I think they have been twisting their thinking for so long (since early childhood) that twisted thinking is hard-wired into their brains. I think projection is such an ingrained habit in them that often they're unaware that they're doing it.


Oh so true, I have tried to explain to friends that I really thought N was not aware of what he did, but it was more from reactionary, they would just say "oh he knew what he was doing". Not to give him credit that he didn't know, I just think it came as second nature or "hard-wired" as you have said.

Certain Hope

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2008, 09:15:04 AM »
Hi Alone and Axa,

I agree with you that their wiring makes this projection reflexive in N... but I'm not sure that's the same as saying they can't help it. I mean, when N is trying to impress someone, or during the idealization phase, or especially when she's afraid of someone, like an authority figure, N is able to restrain herself from acting out the projections. So... I think that they can help it... but it hurts them like heck, because the N injury is so deep? Same difference though, I guess.. projection is what comes naturally to N.

Here's a bit more:


... Jean has absolutely no interest in her friend. She simply needs attention, a mirror to admire her reflection in. She views these interactions – these phone conversations – as nothing but material for the work of fiction about her life that her whole life amounts to an act of composing.

So, let's say that you are the friend. You think you are having a normal conversation with a real friend. That would be a two-way street in which people sharing a friendly relationship/connection establish and strengthen their relationship/connection by communicating.

But Jean is no more interested in communicating with you than she is interested in communicating with a mirror she is just posing in.

That ain't communication. The intercourse is all one-way. You are just a mirror, a sounding board. By bouncing her false image off you, she makes it appear as a virtual reality.

Therefore, when you say, "Hello, Jean, how are you?"
you might as well say, "Hey, Jean, let's play Pretend that you are that figment of your imagination you identify with."

So yeah... with N, there is nobody home, inside, with whom to relate. No fun being her mirror, that's for sure... and when the mirror breaks, she can get downright dangerous.

Carolyn

axa

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2008, 09:44:02 AM »
Carolyn,

I don't think I made myself clear.  I do believe they can help it.  I think they can measure it and hold it back if it suits them and then can unleash it like nothing on earth if that is what they choose.  XN Knew what he was doing, He told me he did, He told me it was a game and I had no idea how devious he was.......... this was cold blooded measured evil......... i Have no doubt.

axa

alone48

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2008, 10:07:06 AM »
Carolyn and Axa,

Yes I think I mistated myself also, they do know what they are doing but don't have the same guilt or emotions so it doesn't affect them in the same manner.

Before I did something that would hurt someone, I would think of all the consequences. Doesn't mean I still wouldn't do it (hopefully not), but at least  I would go into it knowing the likely outcome. Whereas the N I knew, would do what feels right for him and when called on it later MAY admit he knew that it was wrong, but I don't believe he CARED about the outcome, so gave little thought to the consequences. Also he was able to turn my reactions around and somehow blame the outcome on me. Did he understand what he did? That's the part I grappled with, I seriously think he believed what he would tell me, did he have to convince himself or was it just natural? Maybe that's the sociopath in him. I don't relieve him of the pain he caused because of the different wiring, just have to realize that his thinking and mine were not the same so you cannot rationalize a situation with an N the same way you can with someone that accepts responsibility for their actions.

Confounded

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2008, 10:13:24 AM »
Quote
I don't think that N's are calculating (sociopaths probably are--but N's and sociopaths are not synonymous) .  I think they react instinctively to a perceived threat.  I think that the hopelessness of the situation is NOT that they know what they are doing, and do it anyway--but that they truly believe that their behavior is justified.

I agree.  I have seen it and when they're making no sense at all it's as if they're just thrashing around trying to stop the pain in any way possible.  When somebody else is different in a way that might make them look bad by comparison, that has to stop.  The only way they think it can be made to stop is to negate the positive.

My n'ish H has spent his life doing almost no parenting, teaching his children little of what he knows, and his children have limited success in school and in life.  Now he finds himself married to a mother who spends hours teaching her children, grammar, math, science, etc..  He used to rail at me about how I teach my children too much.  (Huh????)  It's because it makes him feel bad about himself.  I used to argue with him about it saying, "You're crazy.  You CAN'T teach your children too much.  That's like saying that a woman is too pretty.  There's no such thing.  You can't max that thing."  I don't argue with him anymore.  He's welcome to the last word.  The less I argue with him, the less he has to say that's negative.  I think that any communication, any interaction, is potentially painful for the n'ish type.  Almost anything that is not a full-on compliment has the potential to make him feel diminished.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 10:15:39 AM by Confounded »

Leah

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2008, 11:02:52 AM »
Quote
I don't think that N's are calculating (sociopaths probably are--but N's and sociopaths are not synonymous) .  I think they react instinctively to a perceived threat.  I think that the hopelessness of the situation is NOT that they know what they are doing, and do it anyway--but that they truly believe that their behavior is justified.

I agree.  I have seen it and when they're making no sense at all it's as if they're just thrashing around trying to stop the pain in any way possible.  When somebody else is different in a way that might make them look bad by comparison, that has to stop.  The only way they think it can be made to stop is to negate the positive.

My n'ish H has spent his life doing almost no parenting, teaching his children little of what he knows, and his children have limited success in school and in life.  Now he finds himself married to a mother who spends hours teaching her children, grammar, math, science, etc..  He used to rail at me about how I teach my children too much.  (Huh????)  It's because it makes him feel bad about himself.  I used to argue with him about it saying, "You're crazy.  You CAN'T teach your children too much.  That's like saying that a woman is too pretty.  There's no such thing.  You can't max that thing."  I don't argue with him anymore.  He's welcome to the last word.  The less I argue with him, the less he has to say that's negative.  I think that any communication, any interaction, is potentially painful for the n'ish type.  Almost anything that is not a full-on compliment has the potential to make him feel diminished.


Dear Confounded,

I resonate and identify with my exNH -- he did and said the exact same to me.   He had no interest in his/my son, I sat with his/my son and taught him, while he complained all the time.

Has to be rooted in envy, for their own children.  Parental envy is the worst kind.  As a child/young person, I now realize that I endured parental envy.  As do countless others in the world;  yesterday, today, and tomorrow, sad but true, I feel.

Leah x
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

Certain Hope

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Re: The projection Machine
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2008, 03:27:18 PM »
Dear Axa,

I'm sorry...I do understand what you've said here, but the way I addressed my reply to both you and Alone, it didn't appear so.
Sorry for the confusion. Your ex sounds so very sadistic... I'm sorry you've had to endure all that and very thankful that you're free of him now.


Dear Alone,

Thank you for clarifying. As you've said, I don't think we can rationalize the behavior of N like you can with "normal" people...
although N's really are quite predictable, I think. Don't they generally seem to do just exactly the opposite of what they think you want them to do?
That's how it seemed to me, always... like some of the biggest mistakes I ever made were in letting N know my hopes and my expectations, because then he'd do
everything in his power to dash those.
I hope that you're enjoying more peace and fresh air now, as you settle in to being free of all that NoNseNse!

Love,
Carolyn