Author Topic: Controversial Issue  (Read 3290 times)

Anonymous

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Controversial Issue
« on: July 14, 2004, 10:05:46 AM »
I believe that I was party to a relationship with a sufferer of NPD from 1994 - 98. From the outset, I could hardly describe our relationship as normal. It had all the hallmarks of a typical couple in love. Overtime, 12 - 24 months, difficulties started to surface. Mostly to do with my divorce, my ex wife and children. Not that my ex was causing them, more my new and dearly beloved taking pot shots whenever she could.

Now don't intend to waffle on a length over a subject that is now well document. I do however wish be make a cautionary warning which I believe to be correct.

In 1998 there wasn't an awful amount of information available on the subject of Narcissism and in particular, Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). This said, I read as much as I could and learned a lot. I was able to draw a direct line between my partner and issues directly set out in the DSMV IV definition of NPD. Do I think she suffers with NPD.......hell yes! Is it of any consequence to her that I know this.......hell no!! Have you ever tried hanging onto a suspended rope over a ravin covered in fresh grease.............exactly, impossible with bare hands! And that's is when I slowly started to get the point I'm now going to introduce!

Why was I spending soooo much time trying to explain the unexplainable? I knew the agony of what she had done to me! I'd felt the full force of her tongue and actions on sooooo many occassions! I'd observed first hand the shear lunacy of it all! I'd seen and felt the rage of it all.......and then the make ups afterwards and rewards that followed from me! I knew the patterns, I new the cycle of it all! But here's the point that I focused upon: If I new all this, If I'd been a party to all this, why did I put up with it for soooo long?

After a fairly short period of time, I knew this wasn't a normal relationship in a normal sense of the word! My marriage had been 'normal'....yes it had its ups and downs, but it had been nothing like this!! This was a relationship that was operating way,way out of the box! It was sooo intense, I'd class it as being on the other side of the universe from normal! But here was I putting up with it for..........the meaning of the word love?? Nope, there had to be more to it than that!

Here's the controversial part.

I was an active and full member of this relationship. I was going along with the absurd for reasons that had nothing to do with my relationship with this person. I'd failed once in my marriage, I wasn't going to fail again! Also my mother had been very ill throughout my childhood and had died when I was 13. I had be pre programmed to fix things. I would stick by things for fear of failure. Above all, my father had blamed me for the death of my mother. She was a good catholic girl and had carried me through to term, against the wishes of her doctors, who then removed a brian tumor shortly afterwards.

So I was carrying some pretty major stuff around inside me. Stuff that I hadn't really thought much about, stuff that was neatly buried! But all along, it was stalking me, waiting to break out and show itself! So, why is this even relevent to what I'm going to say? Well for this reason! In my opinion, a Narcissist with NPD will naturally seek out a relationship with a person who not only provides them with the 'fix(s)' they so need, they deliberately have a sixth sense for vunerable partners!

A vunerable partner will not be someone necessesarilly who has codependentcy stamp on there forehead of something like that. More a person who is emotionally vunerable but doesn't no it........yet! So I think I've figured out why the NPDer picks people, why did I pick this person for a relationship? Why was I so eager to place sooo much on the line for her? Simple.......she knew exactly what I wanted (cos I told her) and she damned well gave it to me........at first!

She showered me with affection and our sex lives were unbelievable! Exactly what I wanted, exactly what I'd told her, exactly what she was mirroring back to me! One problem, it wasn't her, as time was to prove! Sex and affection played a huge amount in how I was maniputated and rewarded by her for being a good boy. Sex for the pure pleasure and mutual satisfaction, was however, something that she could well do without as I was later constantly reminded of!

Now I haven't come on here to trot my story out. Within the contents of most of the material you will find of sites like this, you will find the answers that you seek. You will also find ooddles of support from well intentioned people. There is however a big problem that exists on certain sites.

You see my relationship with this person happened because I had be pre-programmed as a child to put with with stressfull situations! They were normal for me! So living with the NPDer was bad, but I'd get through it all and we'd be happy! I had a high tolerance level for crap because I was carry issues that had nothing to do with this relationship. If I had of known this before meeting this girl, our relationship would never have happened because I would have been cured. My issues would have been dealt with by professionally qualified people and I wouldn't have put up with the s**t she pulled on my all the time!

So I stayed in a relationship that any normal person would have been insane to do so, long after I should have bailed out!

Post relationship, ie when it was all over and I refused tp engauge with her in any shape form or fashion, is when I started to address me! So now I have some advice for those in the early throws of seperating from an NPDer. Firstly:be very careful in accepting that they are an NPDer in the first place. A number of support sites that claim to *be here for you* are actually run by a bunch of selfserving feminists who are only interested it screwing your life up further.

There is between 1 or 2% of the population that suffer with NPD. Partners of thes people are going to be in extreme mental distress as a result of being exposed to them in a relationship. However, some 40% of marriages will fail badly and with a degree of acrimony! Yes it could range from unpleasant to bloody awful, but no it doesn't mean that the other half had NPD! Far to many people who claim to support you are actually potentially distorting your perception of the facts!

Some have financial reason, most are playing the amateur Counsellor game! It makes them feel important but potentially screws you up! Yes it's is good to have a shoulder to cry upon in times of pain, but it's not going to do much for you in the long run! If anything, it will give you a false sense of power that will make you see Narcissists everywhere! It can actually become corrosive and prevent you from seeking the support you need from the right people!

I had a relationship with a Narcissist who had NPD. I'm convinced of that! But the reason why it happened was because of me, I allowed it! I continued with it because of my childhood. It actually had nothing to do with her. She is a Narcissist and she couldn't help herself! I could and did! But above all, I concentrated on fix what could be fixed, me! I am the most important person to me........and as we should all do with any NPDer, not waste a second of our time on someone who can't be fixed!!! Don't allow yourself to play the blame game. Do not become one of the pack who constantly blames someone else for thier predicament!

It's your life. It's up to you to fix it! You most probably had issues going on inside you before entering into the relationship. They new it, they exploited it!

To those of you who had a short be frieghtening experience with an NPDer and then got out quick, well done! You had the ability to immediately spot what wasn't right and bailed out quick. To those of us who didn't, you can and will enjoy a great life by looking after yourself first and foremost! I did and I have a rich life now!

BlueTopaz

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2004, 12:05:38 PM »
Hi Guest,

You have a really wonderful way with words/expression.   I really enjoyed what you had to say (content), as well.  

I don't have any comments either way to make regarding the support forums (it is another topic & I don't have writing time right now), but could not agree more with all else that you said.  

Very well said, and I'm so glad you have moved beyond your N relationship, and seem to have healed so much within....    It's not an easy path.

Best wishes...

Onyx

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2004, 12:24:20 PM »
Quote from: BlueTopaz
Hi Guest,

You have a really wonderful way with words/expression.   I really enjoyed what you had to say (content), as well.  

I don't have any comments either way to make regarding the support forums (it is another topic & I don't have writing time right now), but could not agree more with all else that you said.  

Very well said, and I'm so glad you have moved beyond your N relationship, and seem to have healed so much within....    It's not an easy path.

Best wishes...[Why thankyou mam :-)/quote]

nassim

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2004, 03:07:00 PM »
Hi David,

I think I was a target for my Nmother maybe because of my personality. My brothers and sisters got their needs met more than I did because they didn't take my Mom so seriously. I was more sensitive. I think maybe that's why I was more of a target. They got some(abuse) too but they seemed to know that my Mom was full of "it". They just didn't know what "it" was.

But at least I knew enough not to pick a N for a spouse, although I did have one girlfriend for a short while that was like the woman you describe. I knew she was off. Anyway I'm glad I waited to get healthier before settling down. My wife is a gem.

Anybody know a fairy tale with a N in it? Cinderella, maybe?

Nassim

Anonymous

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2004, 05:16:25 PM »
Hi Nassim,

We already "did" Cinderella.  See topic "Cinderella on Trial"  back in April.
Funny that we didn't go any further than that and look for more.....

How about the Emperor in "The Emperor's New Clothes"?  He's surely living in his little fantasy world and believing all the bull that everyone tells him about himself that makes him "look good."  

The end doesn't fit though, because the Emperor admits that he was foolish.  Unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen in real life.  But then again....it IS a fairy tale !!!

Maybe you can come up with more.....

Gingerpeach

nassim

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2004, 06:43:44 PM »
We already "did" Cinderella. See topic "Cinderella on Trial" back in April

Oh, sorry GP. I joined in May. I'll go back and look at that post. Thanks.

Nassim

Portia

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2004, 07:27:07 AM »
Hello David.  :) So how are your relationships now? Did your experience change what you wanted? (we were talking about men and sex recently and how men/women are built to want different things.)

Nassim:
Quote
My brothers and sisters got their needs met more than I did because they didn't take my Mom so seriously.  
Have they said this to you? Were you the oldest/youngest? Sorry if you mentioned these things before, I've forgotten or missed them if you have. :?

nassim

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2004, 01:38:03 PM »
Hi Portia,

Sorry it's taken me a while to respond. I haven't been on the board too much lately.

I am a middling child (sic), so I had older and younger siblings. And they never said they got their needs met more than mine. It was just an observation since they don't seem as beholden to Nmother as I always was...i.e. they got on with their lives much sooner than I and seemed to have better boundries, etc..

But I did communicate with a sister in the past month. I told her I thought she was a terrific mother (she is), and she said something very poignant.
She said "I learned the art of apology". Now she hasn't done any research on the "N' thing. But she nailed it right there. Ns never, ever apologize. She also said she sent out Mom a Mother's day card that said "I learned everything I know about being a mother from watching you". Of course my Mom took this as a compliment. But my sister said she meant it as she learned everything NOT to do from watching Mom. This cracked me up and made me know that I was validated. I never got validation growing up, so this was very valuable.

And Portia, thanks for asking that clarifying question. I think it's important for people like us to be able to challenge and clarify (when we never were allowed to growing up).

Nassim

Onyx

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2004, 04:15:26 AM »
Potia

I'm very new at this and I hope I've hit the right button with this reply. Interesting question that many have tried to answer since time began...hahahaha! Erm..........here's my penniths worth in reply. I'm affraid to say that I don't generally think that there is a lot of differences anymore between mem and women. These days, I consider womem to be men with the slight difference being that they have a whomb!

I think the last 100 years of evolution have directly encouraged this.......and I don't really know if it's a good or bad thing! Women would complain with regard to the behaviour of thier men folks drinking.....etc. Now when pi**ed whilst partying hard and the weekend, I'm sure that there exists one or two groups of gals somewhere at a bar in the country having farting competitions and generally talking loudly to their mates about how they 'scored' last night and how ugly he was when she woke up beside him in the morning!

At the age of 45, I for one have noticed the changes. There was a time when girls danced around their handbags timidly at the disco on a friday night. Now they hunt in drunken packs ......it's all very masculine! Perhaps governments across the globe have put something in the beer.....I don't know.

I'm affraid to say that even with our divorce laws in th UK, their has been way to much social enginering on the subject to the point that a man sanity would have to be questioned seriously if he proposed. Women are men and vis a vis women are men......we have a unisex society with the only difference being the two groups have wobbly bits......in different places!

It's not good, nor is it bad........it's just evolution!

Portia

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2004, 12:57:48 PM »
Hi Nassim. You responded the next day – that’s fast! - but hey, there’s no time limit. Take a week, a month…no apology needed… :?

I agree, N’s never truly apologise. They might explain: ‘oh it was because of..’ but the blame, or responsibility, never stays with them. Sad. (‘Response-ability’ – the ability to respond, aka Empathy…I won’t state the obvious.)

Quote
"I learned everything I know about being a mother from watching you". Of course my Mom took this as a compliment. But my sister said she meant it as she learned everything NOT to do from watching Mom.
 Ha ha ha!  :D I laughed! This is fantastic, brilliant, inspired. I love it. How great that your sister told you. Priceless. Thank you for telling us. :D

My middle name is ‘provocative’, probably a hang-over from being told I was too much of a ‘stirrer’ (trouble-maker) at home. But I like provocative. The status-quo = boredom, no changes, and that can kill. I like your posts Nassim.  :D P

Portia

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2004, 01:00:04 PM »
Hi Onyx/David. Ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha! :D  Yes, you hit the right button. Oh,  :shock: no pun intended?!  :D I know what you mean about the ‘ladettes’ of today. They scare me. And they drink so much (vodka seems a favourite) and smoke loads too. I dunno. It is wrong, these women have no self-esteem and go overboard the other way, drinking and sleazing as self-medicating. But it’s only a minority. It’s a by-product of ‘equality’. Women now have the jobs and money and can make just as much of a mess of their lives as men could. Dontcha just love equality? Everyone sinks to the lowest common denominator! I’m 42, so probably see things through a similar generational pair of eyes as you.

But what I really wanted to know was: you wanted lots of sex and affection and made that clear with your Nlady, but what do you want now? Something different? Someone with compassion, kindness perhaps? Or more sex? He he he! I wondered if your experience had changed you, other than perhaps making you more guarded with womenfolk? Hmmm? P

Onyx

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2004, 03:09:36 PM »
Nice to learn that I've hit you button :lol: !

Frankly, I think that I've grown up, slowed down or just got bored........I don't know.Yep sex was a big part of my relationship with this person, but I've kind of got beyond it now! Yes I know the Somantic thingy......but I actually thought that it was mutual. Passionate, mutual......but repsect full of mind and body too!

No two situations or perhaps ever the same, and that works for Narcissism too. Shortly after meeting her, I sold two of my business's that I'd built from scratch. I'd wanted a change of life anyway, a far less stressfull existence. So meeting her, kind of fitted in to what I presumed was good. I'd spent 5 years in the Royal Navy on submarines tanking around the North Atlantic during the Cold War and had never 'taken out' any real time. So really I was loaded, not experienced and strange as it seems, a little relationship niave!

So there we were, in London with loads of cash and bags of time on our hands. Sure there was a lot of frantic and furious situations and frequently. It was so of art really! Two artists lock in a environment with lot of canvas and paint! What are you going to do in such circumstances other than..............paint! So it was kind of 9.5 weeks spread over a number of years. But I don't now think that it was for anyother reason than buzzzzz! It gave us both a great sexual and mental togetherness.....i thought, the money was incidental......I tought! But guess what.........yep you've got it!

I did it, we did it, she did it, but for totally different reasons in the end! Her circumstances were different to mine  when we first met. It was my mistake and very imature of me. I felt I'd made a huge mental connection which honestly let me believe that I'd met my soul mate. But in the end, I believe that she was simply mirroring my asperations. It was a fantasy, it wasn't real!

I was completely unaware of her Lesbian needs. Together we'd never talked about it in any depth other than passing conversations. She once exclaimed that if her then son of 7 ever turned gay, she'd disown him. For me, that was enough said about her sexuallity. It was when I came home and found her in bed with one of her close friends that I got the message right. I also soon discovered that this had happened before. I heard and saw it with my very eyes and ears. There was not mistake. She had never been able to accept this for fear of being seen negatively by her parents and familly. Even today she lives a lie,

So as for me and sex today.............I just grew up! Everythings still the same, we all have needs don't we? I just tend not to take things to seriously and in doing so, I enjoy a more pleasant and varied life. I no longer seek depth, more just the good whilst avoiding the bad like the plague. Modern day living allows us to do this. Lots of 'friends'........fu** buddies with no pain! That the frustration really of living today. If we give totally to one person, we're likely to loose more. If we stay free and single, then we'll enjoy more, but with less depth. A strange paradigm of life today don't you agree.

We came from a time when men were "cool" if we bonked a lot. Women were whores if they did the same! Now it's "uncool" to use such words and positively the only method of excersise most of us get on a regular bases. I older and wiser.........I'm also happier.......by smiles!!

Anyway, u've asked me the question for a reason. And as you and I are on the cusp of being old farts together, why don't you explain you point of view in asking the question in the first place :lol:

David

nassim

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2004, 10:30:32 PM »
Hi there,

What can be said after a bit like this?

David wrote:

 Lots of 'friends'........fu** buddies with no pain! That the frustration really of living today. If we give totally to one person, we're likely to loose more. If we stay free and single, then we'll enjoy more, but with less depth. A strange paradigm of life today don't you agree.

Actually, no I don't agree. I have no use for shallow relationships. I think as men we must look beyond the wobbly bits (as you say) and see something deeper. Not all beautiful women come in great packages. It's the same with women who only look for the superficial in men. I mean really that's the point of dating. People show their true colors after a time and you need to pay attention to see if they are worth your time for a real relationship. If you've been burned repeatedly, I'd say the common demoninator is yourself. I'm being very straight  forward because you sound like a bloke who can manage it.

The casual affairs you describe above sound very painful to me. But that's just to me. I couldn't live that way. And I think Portia is right in saying that the women you describe are actually the minority.

I'll get off my soapbox now. I guess I want to know if you really feel you are happier in the shallow end of the pool?

Nassim

Onyx

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« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2004, 04:12:26 AM »
Nassim

Don't worry, it's perfectly reasonable to express yourself howsoever. So your response to what I wrot is fine and yes, I can take it  :D .

I'm not right in how I live on this subject. I'm probably very wrong. But I'm not trying to be 'in a relationship' come what may. So I've kind of broken it down to a series of very simple ways of looking at things.

I work, I play, I laugh and I.......... It's all very mutual and doesn't lead anyone up the garden path. If Missus Right floats along, then yes, I'd take it very seriously. But in the meantime, I don't lie , cheat or beat anyone.

Also there exists a section of society who prefer to live our lives like this. Lots of women have too much to lose right now and are quite happy living a full and free life.  It is based upon friendship but without the: fetching and carrying, washing, snoring, nose picking, farting (I lied there), fighting, arguments, stealing etc... I put it down to evolution and honesty. It wouldn't be heard of or tolerated years ago. But then again, we live in challenging times don't you think? :wink:

Nero

ch

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Controversial Issue
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2004, 06:56:33 PM »
WOW!! I am just catching up with some old posts here.  This is an amazing story with so much depth.  I love it.  Thanks David and others.  You don't have to answer my previous post where i asked about your background and wondered how you became so wise.  I am reading all about it in these old posts, and learning so much.  I am utterly speechless at this moment.....