Regarding the posts by Kimberli (DOUG)

[reallyME]

I was reading those posts this morning, about Doug's family of N's and I have some thoughts about living in my own family with some N traits in my husband and daughter.


NH used to make 2 yr old daughter walk up long hills when he went with me to clean our church on Saturdays at the beginning of our marriage.  When I'd pick her up and try to carry her, he'd yell at me and tell me I was hindering her legs from developing.  She would be screaming in pain by this time, but I was torn by guilt if I dared intervene. 

When I used to work outside the home at a portrait studio and various other jobs, NH would let children play together with no supervision.  They would often get hurt and when I'd come home to their injuries and get angry with him, he'd say "they're FINE!" 

apology circle:  I was in my rights to reconcile with apology/forgiveness on both ends in my family and still am in many situations.  When I've gone and expected an apology, I was told "I forgive you" when it was NH or ND who needed to apologize

movies- N's are not moved to tears.  Very often if I sit with my daughters and watch a movie, I'll cry on very happy parts or sad ones and NH will roll his eyes and say "awwwww look at the bawl babies.  What are you CRYIN about.  It's only a movie."  This really ticks me off, so I rarely watch movies with him anymore.

I would like to let you know that my husband has been diagnosed with NPD and AVPD by our marriage therapist.  So, it's not me just making up things about his behaviors.  It is official. 

When he and I are in counselling sessions, he does not give the therapist much eye contact at all.  When he does respond, he closes his eyes and his lids do this nervous fluttering thing, like he is trying to avoid looking at her or having her really SEE him.  His eyelids will shut and flutter nervously and then once in a while at the end of what he's saying, he will slightly look at her but mostly around her head, not at her eyes.  It is weird, embarassing to me at times that he can't just act NORMAL, but at least he is in counselling and he has been trying to at least consider that certain things must change with us.  He is not a full-blown N, but he definitely has mastered the "feel no feeling, empathy, emotions" and make fun of anyone who does or ignore and dissociate from them.

It is ROUGH raising children with a man who can't feel, can't experience empathy and sometimes sympathy, wants to pretend our family is normal when it is far from it, and has a problem with slight retardation at times.

I'm not perfect and I have some anger issues, but overall, I'm pretty comfortable in my own skin and I know what to do when I become uncomfortable.  I have people who encourage me and hold me accountable, as well as a close relationship spiritually with God.  I am happy just being me and working out the kinks in myself as needed.

~Laura

[Hermes]

"""I would like to let you know that my husband has been diagnosed with NPD and AVPD by our marriage therapist.  So, it's not me just making up things about his behaviors.  It is official.  

He is not a full-blown N, .......................""

Laura:

I am not quite clear, because if he was diagnosed as NPD, then he has the disorder...
Just wondering.
My exNH was diagnosed NPD by a mental health professional, and speaking for myself (and I am made of fairly stern stuff), there was no way I could have remained with the person.  Indeed the psych made it very clear that it would even be possibly dangerous to do so.

That is why I ask.

Best wishes
Hermes

[reallyME]

well Hermes, there are different degrees of NPD.  He is also avoidant and ocd.  He is not the type of N that is evil and cruel most of the time.  He is just very eccentric and non-empathic.

[Hermes]

I just want to say, R.M. that I would hope he is just eccentric and non-empathetic.  Unfortunately, if he has NPD, I greatly fear there is more to it than just that.  The things described in your posts on this person remind me so strongly of my exNH in what might be called "early stages". I would not want anyone to go through what I went through.  My exNH was not "evil" and "cruel" either, not to begin with.

However, we cannot ask people to go by another's experience.  It is so unfortunate that they have to find out for themselves.  It is sad.

All the best
Hermes

[reallyME]

Well, i'm not going by anyone's experience except my own.

I do know that my husband has been making strides at improving in the areas he is more avoidant in rather than narcissistic.  He now notices when something bothers me and he tries to improve.  I can't ask for more than at least a bit of effort on his part.  The connections in his brain never got a chance to fully connect and, as I said, he is not full-blown evil-narcissist.  The man supports his family, buys us gifts, spends time with his children, does things to please me.  He isn't Sam Vaknin at all, though his lack of being able to "feel" can be very disconcerting indeed.

~Laura

[Hermes]

R.M.  From the bottom of my heart I wish you the best.  I have been where you are.  I also got the presents, and towards the end ,one of the more spectacular was an amazing gold bracelet. He also worked. 

I do not think NPDs are evil.  It is a word I do not like when applied to the mentally disordered. 

I can remember the psych saying to me: "He cannot love you ( as in "feel").  " 

However, R.M. I can only tell you of my experience.  Yours is yours.

All the best
Hermes

[Kimberli63]

I have withdrawn all of Doug's posts because some people have taken offense to the fact that he uses his real name. I thought what he had to say was very valuable to the group and gave a man's perspective. The fact that he chose to use his real name was his choice. If you wish to view what he said, you can go directly to his web entry  http://www.chameleongroup.org.uk/npd/Douglas.html. He usually reponds to people in person although he may not be able to do so at the moment because his sister is in the final stages of a fight against cancer. I ask you to deal sensitively with him at this time. Thank you.

Kim in Oz

[reallyME]

??does he ever make the bed;

once in a greaaaaaaaaaaaaaat while, yes.

 does he hang his good clothes on wooden hangers;

he has yet to go through his clothes, so I can put the freshly washed ones in his drawers.  As of now, there isn't much room in closet or dressers (that's the avoidant/ocd in him)

does he have good hygiene;

not hardly

 does he ever fold the laundry--all of it;

Occasionally.  Mostly my daughter and I do that.

fluff and fold and put where it belongs;

No.  He feels it is a woman's job.

 does he ever cook;

Yep.  He is a darn good cook.

 does he take you out to dinner;

Yes and we have a date night once in a while too.

 does he turn down your side of the bed if he is in bed first;

he unmakes the whole bed.  Who turns down each side?  I've never even heard of that.

 does he say something sweet to you every day; ?? 

He does better at that.  He tells me he loves me and compliments me.  I can see where he is really making efforts to improve.

~Laura

[Hermes]

So did mine, R.M. ..so did mine, seemingly.

Hermes

[Certain Hope]

I have withdrawn all of Doug's posts because some people have taken offense to the fact that he uses his real name. I thought what he had to say was very valuable to the group and gave a man's perspective. The fact that he chose to use his real name was his choice. If you wish to view what he said, you can go directly to his web entry  http://www.chameleongroup.org.uk/npd/Douglas.html. He usually reponds to people in person although he may not be able to do so at the moment because his sister is in the final stages of a fight against cancer. I ask you to deal sensitively with him at this time. Thank you.

Kim in Oz

Dear Kim,

I don't know what was said, but I just want to tell you how much I appreciate you... and I'm glad that you shared those posts. Thank you.
Sincerely, I hope that you've not taken anything hurtful to heart... thank you!
And thanks for giving the link again here, as I'd only gotten through the first 3 parts and found those to be extremely valuable.
Love to you, with hugs,

Carolyn

[Hopalong]

Hi Kim,
I didn't mean to upset you. And I don't judge you for sharing those posts, truly.
It's cat out of the bag anyway, in terms of his family's idenity.

I was just shocked when I got to the end and realized he'd named them.
And felt badly for his children, if not his Nwife. The Net is so permanent.
Nothing's really retrievable once it's put out there...

(I understand you weren't thinking along those lines when you shared it.
And maybe it's a point that wouldn't bother other folks.)

You thought of a very good way to share what you wanted to by sharing the link here.
Thank you for your thoughtfulness. I appreciate that.

Hops

[Kimberli63]

Hops, thanks for your response. Doug, is a very open person, and he has talked at length with his wife, and sought lots of help in terms of counselling etc. He has, also, given his brother-in-law as much help as he can. As for his children, he was the one who brought them up to be rounded loving human beings, functioning as responsible adults. One is a psychiatric nurse, the other an accountant and the youngest a physiotherapist, who has gone on to do a medical degree.

Doug is happy to field questions on the subject and he is very knowledgeable, having spent the last 12 years studying this condition. He thinks education is very important because if you don't recognise what is going on, you are likely to drive yourself mad trying to understand what is wrong with yourself.

When I read your response, I suddenly became aware how much of a violation it was on his family to have them named, and I decided to withdrawn his insights from the board, even though they are freely available on the Internet.

Thanks, for your concern.

Kim