For Hermes

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Hermes,

Just wanted you to know that I don't dislike you.

I don't like some of your choices of expression here on the board, but I don't dislike you.

I don't like some of my own choices of expression here on the board, either.

For some reason, you don't happen to push my buttons... but I do see how others would feel their buttons pushed.

I also saw - at the beginning - how you would feel your buttons being pushed.

Somehow along the way, as is bound to occur here on this board from time to time,  there was a bolt of lightning which shut down some major circuits and I watched it become apparently impossible for many of those involved to hear each other.
Having been in that position myself, and likely to be there again, I don't feel the tiniest bit superior about this... because, like I said, you simply don't trigger me.
Maybe that's because I was raised in a very mild version of your own religious upbringing and can definitely relate to the horrors of such an environment and its effects on a child.

Anyway, I just wanted to express these few things to you, after reading your last post on Axa's thread re: sadness.
Because I felt that was Axa's place to express her own feelings... and not a place for any further discussion or potential argument about the conflict itself.

I hope that you won't take any offense at what I've written here... none is intended.
I wish you well.

Carolyn

[Hermes]

Dear Carolyn:

Thank you, very much, for your kind, direct, and civilised post. I do appreciate it.  I can only speak with my own "voice", I cannot imitate someone else's way of expressing him or herself.  That would not be "me".  Thankyou too for remembering my post about my secondary school days.  Fortunately my good family greatly offset that particular five year experience.

I would never ever take offense at a post like yours, Carolyn.  I like people to be straightforward, and if they did not like me asking about the "why" of the deleted thread, they could have said so in a different way IMO.  But, attack me and I will attack back (no doubt a legacy of my time with exNH).


Thanks again, and best wishes
Hermes

[Hermes]

I justed wanted to add (as I have posted on another thread), that if the majority wish to approach Dr. Grossman to ask him to ask me to leave the board, I shall most certainly abide by his decision.  I cannot be any fairer than that.

Hermes

[Gabben]

From the "anger and shame thread:"

Dear Hermes,

When I first signed on the board and noticed you posting here again, with no regard for my previous limits and expressions, I felt a pang of fear and hurt.


The topic of this thread was Shame and anger and why do people make us feel ashamed for our anger. I have not seen one reference to my topic from you nor have I seen an ounce of empathy or concern from you here on this thread for my feelings or the deep pain that I have expressed or even just simply my presence. On the contrary, the behavior by you towards me has been exceptionally inconsiderate and intentionally hurtful -  that leaves me with a question, can you honestly admit to not having hidden agendas?

Please feel free to discuss whatever you want on this board but I will ask again, for the third time, please respect the topic here on this thread, and that this is my thread and that I am reading this thread.


Your behavior has show a clear disrespect for my feelings and limits. It is OK to express your self - but at some point, myself included we have to realize how our behavior and voice affects others.

Lise

Hermes,

Many times I have posted straightforward posts to you, like the one above, only to get extremely rude replys. It seems that it is OK for you to be rude but not others?

Can you honestly admit to treating me with dignity and respect since you have been on the board. At one point I even apologized to you for being critical of you.

The amazing thing about this board is if you can grow, change, heal -- even admit defeat, or apologize to others for behavior, really, you do not even have to apologize, just change the behavior, others here will respect you and treat you better in the long run.

As long as you behave the way you are behaving these conflicts are going to continue.  OR you will find very few people here posting on your threads and they WILL ignore you.

People here figure out your buttons and how to push them, real fast.

Lise

(At this point, I feel out of things to express, I've finally spoken my voice.)

[Certain Hope]

Dear Hermes,

Thanks for your response.

I wonder whether you would consider... simply entertain the possibility... that people who did not enjoy the benefit of a "good family" such as yours may suffer increased difficulty with issues of trust, on which so much of our interaction here is based.

Please allow me to attempt an explanation of that last part...

I'm not saying that we must necessarily trust each other deeply here... because, after all, there are some severe limitations involved with internet communications and none of us really can know another (that can be difficult enough when face to face!)

What I mean about trust is this...
when I first came to this board nearly 2 years ago, I really had no idea who I was... only that I'd recently escaped marriage to a man with npd and immediately lept into another marriage... because I had absolutely no interest in returning to my family of origin "to be with people who cared about me" (something a family member suggested at the time).
My lack of self awareness deeply affected my ability to relate to others in a calm, cool, objective, non-reactive manner...
and all that had very little to do with my npd ex-husband.
It had everything to do with the fact that I was raised by parents who never gave me a sense of myself as being a valuable, unique individual... let alone how to deal with feelings, emotions, differences - - life in general!

The fact is = If it had not been for people who were willing to come alongside me then, here on this board, I might be sitting here right now thinking - - sheesh, I wish Hermes would get out of here! That's how I was raised. It is not who I was meant to be.

So please, I would just ask you to consider... and try to imagine - knowing your own legacy from npd ex-husband and how that affected you...
how it might feel to have known nothing but such ravages from the very beginning, from infancy...
to have never felt that there was a smidgen of solid ground beneath your feet.

I hope that you can imagine... and possibly understand.

Sincerely,
Carolyn

[Leah]

Hello to everyone,

Surely this board is not all about someone posting, with deliberate intention of setting out to push someone's buttons / or triggers etc.

In my personal experience, using yesterday's expression, "unwittingly" doing so is more than likely to happen.

I have unwittingly, unknowingly, created a trigger by posting something real appertaining to my life experience and journey.

But, it was never intentional, whyever would someone wish to do that?

We use and time and resources for personal life healing journey --- is my understanding, and why I am here.


Just my experiential thoughts and view.

I will say this, regardless of anyone's upbringing, because we are not children here, we have lived in the real world, as adults, I do feel that there is no excuse for rudeness, of any kind, reason or none.


Love, Leah x

[Bella_French]

Carolyn,

If I had been treated the way Hermes has been here, in the present, I would have very real, very valid issues surrounding trust. Its so hard to really get to know the beautiful, vulnerable side of a person when they are on the defense, accused, scrutinised, & spoken to rudely on a daily basis. That behavior tends make a person want to crawl into a defensive shell, behind walls, where noone can get to them. And defenses tend to be prickly and `unappealling' by default.

You're right, Carolyn, there is love on this board, and a lot of caring, beautiful people. And people  respond better to vulnerability than strong defenses. I wonder what the best way forward is from here?

X bella

[Certain Hope]

Carolyn,

If I had been treated the way Hermes has been here, in the present, I would have very real, very valid issues surrounding trust. Its so hard to really get to know the beautiful, vulnerable side of a person when they are on the defense, accused, scrutinised, & spoken to rudely on a daily basis. That behavior tends make a person want to crawl into a defensive shell, behind walls, where noone can get to them. And defenses tend to be prickly and `unappealling' by default.

You're right, Carolyn, there is love on this board, and a lot of caring, beautiful people. And people  respond better to vulnerability than strong defenses. I wonder what the best way forward is from here?

X bella

Dear Bella,

I don't want to hurt your feelings or cause offense... not in any way. I want you to know that you have my admiration and respect!
Nonetheless, I have disagreed with your perspective on some recent events.

My concern here on this thread is that I don't want to assume how Hermes feels... and I don't want to get into a position of speaking to her through you, or around you, or as though you two are one.
My feeling is that you have identified with Hermes to a point that goes beyond anything which has occurred here on the board.
I'm not sure what all is involved with that, but it's just a feeling I have... since I've had similar experience myself, in overidentifying with others.
At that point, I've recognized that it's not even empathy I'm feeling any more...  and, whatever it is, I can no longer be objective once that switch has flipped.

It'd be great to discuss your feelings, Bella... your own personal feelings about matters specific to you... and I would love to do that!

But I don't see how to do that in this case without making alot of presumptions about Hermes and preventing her from speaking for herself.

I hope you will understand.

Sincerely,
Carolyn

[Bella_French]

Dear Carolyn, I hear you, although I disagree entirely. No offense is taken, Carolyn.

I have never seen anyone attacked so persistently on this board before. Have you? What you are dismissing as `overidentification' is what I see as outrage, empathy, and hearing someone when they say it hurts..

[Certain Hope]

Dear Bella,

I hear you, too.

The last thing I want to do is to dismiss anyone... which is exactly why I wrote this post to Hermes.

What I'd like is to be allowed to continue discussing this with Hermes if she's interested in doing so...
not because I want to disprove her position toward the conflict or defend anyone with whom she's engaged in conflict,
but because I am interested in Hermes.

None of the above indicates a disinterest in or dismissal of you, dear Bella...
only a refusal to continue a conflict here on this thread in which I was not involved on the other threads where it has already been discussed.

With love,
Carolyn

[Bella_French]

No worries Carolyn,

I understand now. Sorry, I am slow.

X bella

[Overcomer]

I have found that sometimes what people say is not as important as how it is said.  Sometimes people will then jump in and delete things to squalsh the conflict actually makes things worse.  If we all asked simple non threatening questions we could get to the bottom of intentions before the conflict arises.

[Certain Hope]

((((((Bella)))))))  thank you for being so gracious to me, always....

and I don't think you're slow.

With love,
Carolyn

P.S.  Kelly, what you said is just exactly what I want to practice and make habit... asking simple, non threatening questions which are free from presumptions and assumptions and staying out of defensive mode!

[Leah]

P.S.  Kelly, what you said is just exactly what I want to practice and make habit... asking simple, non threatening questions which are free from presumptions and assumptions and staying out of defensive mode!


That's the Key!

Pain Free!

Leah x    

[Hermes]

Thank you again, Carolyn.  Your post is kind, and I can see what you are saying. I can only imagine the ravages that an abusive and dysfunctional childhood would have on a person, and it must be awful, dreadful, and I can see that it would lead those persons to be untrustful of others.  Of course it would.  I do understand, and after all there is not a day goes by on either radio or T.V. that there is not some such case discussed.
Perhaps, given that everyone on here is an adult, I suppose I expected adult responses, and I do not mean this sentence to be picked up wrongly.  Please!  I am totally on the side of the abused person, and if I have posted anything, including links, names of articles, or any other information, it was with the intention of hopefully providing something useful.  (and not, as a poster yesterday rudely said, "a know it all". )  That is precisely the kind of personal attack which IMO shows up the true colours of the individual who says such a thing.  In fact one reason for providing part of an article or a link, is that the writer of those articles is able to express (and knows more about) facts more clearly than I could. 

Could I just say that I agree entirely with anything that Bella has said.  It is very very validating to find that someone is actually prepared to stand up and defend you.  That is IMO, having a voice for the person who is not allowed a voice at that given moment.  Bella is a courageous woman.

I know that invalidation by an NH might not be seen in the same category as childhood abuse and invalidation, mainly because the person is already an adult when the situation develops.

Having said all that, and you ask how I feel.  Well, I suppose perplexed is the answer. 

I am so sorry for your experience, Carolyn.  So many bad experiences, an NPD marriage, out of that into another, no family to turn to who would give you validation.  Voicelessness.

All the best, and thank you again for your post.
Hermes