TO Hermes (sorry about the duplicate subject! D.)

[dandylife]

"Soft Startup" is a term used in conflict resolution meaning that you strip all the provocation out of your complaint so as not to make it a criticism. Complaining can be productive. Criticism just hurts and causes things to spiral downward.

So, if you want to UNDERSTAND why and how the conflict spiraled down, begin with your subject : "LACK of moderation on the board".

That's provocative in itself. Before even opening your message, people are poised for something negative.

Why not something like: "Opinions about more moderation on the board?"  (I like it when people propose something good and positive and not just complain - which is what I'm trying to do here!)

Next, there is a launch into your complaint, which basically is an attack on what you feel is the moderator's lack of presence.

I can only say that myself reading it, got a little shot of adrenaline in my own heart, and I'm not even the moderator!

I think this type of message automatically provokes in people sympathy in the person being attacked (Dr. Grossman). Whether or not the reader agrees or disagrees with you never gets to be the point, because the reader is already so put off by your tone.

So, just a thought or two on how your messages might come across as something worth pondering vs. something worth arguing about.

Sometimes it's just a matter of self-control - wait until your own emotions are under control about the topic before posting? I'm NOT saying you must or should change what you are doing - perhaps the arguing is in some way helping you. But, if you WANT to experience a more serene presence on the board, perhaps a tweak to your presentation style is in order.


Dandylife

[Gabben]

Sometimes it's just a matter of self-control - wait until your own emotions are under control about the topic before posting?

dandylife,

good advice. Trust me I need to work on it. Just this morning I was looking at that aspect of myself.

Your input on this issue was clear and full of reason.

My appreciation for your post is not because I do get along with Hermes and wish to support anyone who shows up here who expresses the slightest bit of indifference to her posts or threads in order to intice relational aggression, no, it is because I love truth and reason.

Lise

[gratitude28]

dandylife,
This is a great point. I can't tell you how many times I have bitten my tongue when I have wanted to lash out or "be right." I can say that almost always I am glad I waited until the anger passed, as my initial reaction is often not what I would want to really say to someone. I appreciate so much here that people allow me to BE, even when I know my lifestyle and choices may not be their cup of java.
Lots of love, Beth

[Leah]

Dandylife,

I have always appreciated, and learned so much, for your postings.  Thanking you in acknowledgement of your astute, sensible, post.

Gratitude

I know my lifestyle and choices may not be their cup of java.

Earlier on today, I was engaged in a wonderful discussion, with a friend [3D] on this very subject;  acceptance of people.

My personal view is;  I accept people regardless of the "garments" of life that they have chosen to wear.

Meaning, one's very own personal lifestyle choice -- i.e. diversity.   Acceptance that we may be "dressed" differently, with our own personal lifestyle choice, diverse as that may be, and yet, we remain equal. 

Lovely afternoon, kept me from feeling alone due to it being Feb 14th!!  That, and treating myself to a pretty plant for my windowsill.

Love to all,

Leah x

[Certain Hope]

"Soft Startup" is a term used in conflict resolution meaning that you strip all the provocation out of your complaint so as not to make it a criticism. Complaining can be productive. Criticism just hurts and causes things to spiral downward.

So, if you want to UNDERSTAND why and how the conflict spiraled down, begin with your subject : "LACK of moderation on the board".

That's provocative in itself. Before even opening your message, people are poised for something negative.

Why not something like: "Opinions about more moderation on the board?"  (I like it when people propose something good and positive and not just complain - which is what I'm trying to do here!)

Next, there is a launch into your complaint, which basically is an attack on what you feel is the moderator's lack of presence.

I can only say that myself reading it, got a little shot of adrenaline in my own heart, and I'm not even the moderator!

I think this type of message automatically provokes in people sympathy in the person being attacked (Dr. Grossman). Whether or not the reader agrees or disagrees with you never gets to be the point, because the reader is already so put off by your tone.

So, just a thought or two on how your messages might come across as something worth pondering vs. something worth arguing about.

Sometimes it's just a matter of self-control - wait until your own emotions are under control about the topic before posting? I'm NOT saying you must or should change what you are doing - perhaps the arguing is in some way helping you. But, if you WANT to experience a more serene presence on the board, perhaps a tweak to your presentation style is in order.


Dandylife

Hi, Dandylife,

I'd never heard the term "soft startup" before, but this is wonderful counsel, I think.
One thing I feel that I've learned through repeated interaction here on the board is some small measure of tact, I hope. It was sorely needed.
And I still need to exercise it more... along with gentleness... in my communication with folks with whom I feel more familiar, so as not to take for granted their graciousness toward me.

Thank you so much for your post, Dandy. It's my opinion that this is valuable information for Hermes, too, and I say that straightforwardly, with no judgmental or critical attitude at all... because I need to keep the same thing in mind for myself. At one time, I felt that practicing these skills was too much like walking on eggshells... or somehow "not my style"... but now I can see that if the goal is direct communication, then it's imperative to be aware of how we're coming across to others and to be concerned about it! In no way need this become an issue of sugar-coating the truth... more like packaging it with something more attractive than a skull 'n crossbones, I think.  (Not speaking of Hermes here any more than my own packaging... which is chiefly reserved for intimates and not online contacts). I have lots to put into practice here and at home, as well as to teach my own children, especially my slightly surly teen daughter... lol.

Love,
Carolyn

With love,
Carolyn

[dandylife]

Bella,
Hi. Thanks for your comments and question.

I think behind my words is a request for self-responsibility and also a respect for the fragility of the others here on the board. In Dr. Grossman's own words, the board is, "A forum to discuss your experience with voicelessness". It is not a be all and end all for life experience or a replacement for therapy. The topic of the board suggests that we've all been hurt, big time, maybe not even realizing how much. Therefore, it would just make sense that when posts are made, they are made with the foundation of "Outcome Based Thinking" - what am I hoping to accomplish with my post? I never post without a clear statement of what I want from everyone, and so there's never a question. "What did I do wrong in this situation?" Or, "I need some support here, this is N-behavior, right?"

BUT, that said, that is only MY opinion about the board, what it is in MY life - it's a bunch of helpful, knowledgeable people I can turn to for opinions. Other people use the board in different ways - just to chat, etc., or to post helpful articles, - there are a myriad of ways.

I think that trouble comes when triggers happen. Triggers happen when members exhibit language and behavior that reminds them of N-behavior. It's simple.

So, the intelligent thing is to refrain from exhibiting N-behavior.

Therein lies the rub.

It's impossible not to every once in a while.

Even the most thoughtful and gentle of us.

That's why I suggested to be in control of your emotions before posting. Sometimes that's enough to take the sting out of words, or stop someone from posting a negative comment at all.

I understand the need to NOT CONTROL others. I do not wish to control others, or impose any rules. You may recall from my post I said "I'm not suggesting you should change" to Hermes. I mean that sincerely. Perhaps he/she needed to experience that to learn something.

I think that behind Dr. Grossman's decision not to moderate as much is that respect he has for everyone's self-responsibility. We are adults.

As long as I mentioned that, I would like to mention an incredible book I've read since I've been away from the board a few months. It's called How to Be an Adult by David Richo. Most helpful in establishing the "norms" that alot of us never learned as kids, having had extreme N behavior as our "norm". I'll save that for a post on the What Helps board later.

I hope this information is helpful in a small way, just my opinions.

Dandylife

[mudpuppy]

Are you suggesting that the abuse is justified in this instance, because people imagined certain intent behind the non-abusive statements that were made?

  I don't think there are too many people who consider calling people bigots, bullies, xenophobes, racists, mentally disordered, ignorant etc, to be non-abusive statements. Nor is there any need to imagine the intent behind them.
  Several people have apologized to Hermes for the way they responded to her provocative statements. Her response has usually been to either ignore the apology or declare it insincere. Is that not a case of questioning someone's intent? And while Hermes has repeatedly accused others of being rude she has not once apologized to anyone for using that long list of epithets above.

Why don't people ask questions, if they are confused, rather than abuse someone and then deflect accountability for their own abuse?

Maybe some of us aren't confused and don't consider pointing out the games someone else is playing to be 'abuse'.
Maybe some of us also consider repeatedly accusing other people of being rude while calling them names, never apologizing and instead letting someone else constantly and unconditionally defend whatever she says to be the very definition of deflecting accountability.

mud

[mudpuppy]

Hi Bella,

  As I pointed out previously my disagreement had nothing to do with any 'minority' opinion nor even with anything that anyone else believed. What I disagreed with was the attrbution to others by you and Hermes of why we believe what we believe. As I also pointed out I apologized to both of you because I realized it was probably inadvertant, although in Hermes case I now wonder how inadvertant it was.
 You acknowledged my apology, Hermes ignored it.
 Gabben apologized, Hermes declared it insincere.
 I believe GS apologized but I could be mistaken. Leah did, CH did. You have apologized as well. Everybody and their brother apologized except for one; Hermes. And IMO she clearly used the most abusive language of anyone.
 Until she acknowledges her language to be at least as abusive as others' and until she takes responsibility for it and apologizes why should anyone take seriously the claim that she is somehow being singled out unfairly?

mud
 

[Leah]

Hi Bella,

  As I pointed out previously my disagreement had nothing to do with any 'minority' opinion nor even with anything that anyone else believed. What I disagreed with was the attrbution to others by you and Hermes of why we believe what we believe. As I also pointed out I apologized to both of you because I realized it was probably inadvertant, although in Hermes case I now wonder how inadvertant it was.
 You acknowledged my apology, Hermes ignored it.
 Gabben apologized, Hermes declared it insincere.
 I believe GS apologized but I could be mistaken. Leah did, CH did. You have apologized as well. Everybody and their brother apologized except for one; Hermes. And IMO she clearly used the most abusive language of anyone.
 Until she acknowledges her language to be at least as abusive as others' and until she takes responsibility for it and apologizes why should anyone take seriously the claim that she is somehow being singled out unfairly?

mud
 

Just to clarify -- I apologized for DELETING my Thread -- publically on the board for all to see --- which was denied / not accepted.

I did not engage in any abuse at all.

My subsequent posting highlighted and asked the question as to why;  GS and Izzy had had to be publically;   verbally abused with false accusations.

At this point in time;  GS and Izzy have not received a public apology -- (I cannot say if they have received an apology privately, as I do not know).

Leah x

[Leah]

Dear Bella,

I only posted as above, for clarity, for myself, for peace of mind, as things often get misunderstood, and it is so time consuming having to repeatedly type and post, for the purpose of re-clarification.  Patience is a virtue -- and I never ask for it to be tested!! LOL

I sincerely do hear you, I * hear * that you are feeling hurt. 

It saddens me, truly it does, to have to sit here and * see * you all on your own -- out on a limb.

Where is Hermes?  I have seen Hermes sign in twice today.   But, I cannot * see * any reciprocation of support.

That concerns me, as I * feel * bewildered, and saddened, for you, dear Bella.

My advice to you would be to not sit waiting for an apology -- as I don't sit and wait for an apology, then I don't feel disappointed.

I did  not receive an apology in spite of going to great lengths to clear up misunderstandings.

Truly, I do understand how you * feel * as I have done that also, gone to great lengths, as is obvious, yet, to no avail, often.

I don't know what to say, or what to do.  Honestly.   

Personally, I try my best to live, and engage, reciprocally, with a pure heart of intention, and certainly, NOT a perfect one.

Love, Leah x

[dandylife]

Bella,
I hear your emotion coming through your words. I don't know if this is the case with you - I only read what happened on the thread in question and can make some inferences from that - only you know yourself - but I used to feel a supreme pull toward "rescuing" people - situations- you name it. I for some reason felt responsibility for everyone else's behavior, how they were coming across, even apologizing for them - EVEN WARNING PEOPLE BEFOREHAND that my N might exhibit bad behavior. How's that for rescuing, being in control? I learned, however, that aside from little ones in your protection, it is really stealing the thunder from the person in question when you intervene. When someone DOES a behavior, they then have consequences. They SHOULD then have to feel, deal with and FIX those consequences. It's nobody else's job to take that on. This is SELF-RESPONSIBILITY. (excuse the caps, I'm not shouting, just for emphasis.)

Someone recently posted a topic - something to do with how topics frequently get circumvented, whether it's by talking about talking about it, or whatever.

That's what ended up happening here.

Because of all the covert messages in Hermes post, people's attention was all over the place.

Hermes was commenting on how she felt the board could use more moderating.

Simple thing, right?

Only - because she did things like choosing a subject that was provocative AND (remember "LACK of moderation") the word lack implies that something is missing. That may or may NOT be the case. To label it as missing, is like making up our minds for us. Or an even better analogy would be the question, "When did you stop beating your wife?" Pre-supposes the person was beating their wife. "lack of moderation" presupposes that what she's saying is missing - is missing.

This all happens covertly (unconsciously) within seconds - milliseconds of reading it. Instant trigger.

I just think common sense would dictate that if you're going to make up the group's mind about something, then at least put a question mark on it - eh?

I understand your desire to support your friend.  Thanks for your thoughts.

Dandylife

[mudpuppy]

Bella,

  I'm sorry if people have not apologized for abusive language toward you and that you feel hurt. 
  I must admit I am guilty of some smartassiness (new word?) myself when I responded to the 'pack of wolves/proud horse' comment.
  I just think you might consider letting Hermes fight her own battles, if she chooses to, a little more frequently. She does seem to have a knack for irritating no small number of otherwise circumspect people.
Perhaps on her own she would develop a little more user friendly idiom.
And perhaps you wouldn't catch a hot one between the eyes that was intended for her quite so often.
Sometimes being a friend means letting your pal experience the feedback he or she generates unfiltered.

mud

[Gaining Strength]

I appreciate your turn of phrase Mud.  You have a way of seeing right to the heart of the matter and getting it clear on the paper.  I always look forward to reading your posts.  Thanks

[Leah]

Deleted

[reallyME]

Awesome advice, but it looks like Hermes might have taken the high road and headed for greener pastures or something.

I'm going to try to learn the "soft startup" approach personally, because I can see what Dandylife means!

Thank you, Dandy

Blessya!

~Laura