Author Topic: Rape of the Heart  (Read 6661 times)

Gaining Strength

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2008, 01:36:30 PM »
I found this on the internet and find the contents explain that it is normal though incorrect for a parent to blame him or herself.  It is also clear that society (and individuals in society) often blame parents.

This is a lengthy article but I am posting it (slightly abridged) because this is such an important issue.

http://www.bereavedparentsusa.org/images/pdfs/bpusasuicide.pdf
SUICIDE

S uicide is the eighth leading cause of death in the United States, ahead
of both
homicide and AIDS. The highest numbers are in the 15 to 34 age
group.
Statistics are small comfort to parents of suicide victims who now
face the loss of their child plus the heightened negative emotions which
suicide leaves in its wake.

Normal grief reactions such as shock, guilt, denial, anger, and depression will occur and are intense for
the families of suicide victims. Parents often feel a deeper sense of guilt and failure than those whose child died in other ways. They feel they should have known what was going to happen, that they missed vital clues, that they are somehow responsible for not preventing the suicide, that they were poor parents. These feelings persist even though most psychiatrists will tell you that if a person is determined to complete suicide, he or she will find a way in spite of anyone’s best efforts to prevent the act.

Society’s attitude toward suicide often exacerbates the parents’ negative emotions. Generally speaking,
society frowns on suicide and looks toward the parents as possessing poor parenting skills. They may
point at mental illness as the cause and scrutinize a family’s history of aberrant behavior. The clergy often
is at a loss to know what to say since many believe the Bible points to suicide as a mortal sin.
Consequently, they may be somewhat tongue-tied in trying to comfort. (Careful Bible reading will not
reveal that Jesus condemned suicide although most people do not know that.)

If your child left a suicide note, you have some understanding of his or her frame of mind. Without a
note, the question why burns more deeply. If your child had a troubled past or was receiving mental
health services, you may be able to conclude that medication was wrong or that irrational thinking
beyond his or her control led to the act.

The question why, with or without a note, will haunt you for months or even years as you strain to gain
understanding of the dynamics of suicide. In your search for answers you may read about suicide,
evaluate what you read, and apply what you have learned to your own personal situation. You will
examine your life and coping techniques, which is also a natural part of any bereavement. You will no
doubt make changes in your beliefs and actions. For many, a kinder, more understanding person will
emerge.

As time goes on, you will realize you may never have all the answers, the why will grow less urgent,
and you will finally be able to put it to rest as one of life’s unanswerable questions. You will not get to
this last stage easily or quickly. But hold to the thought that you will get there as you grow and heal.

For all parents, guilt and what-ifs go hand in hand with grief. The guilt after a suicide can be all consuming
for months or even years. You find yourself recalling every cross word you ever said, every
wrong decision you ever made, every turn of events you think you could have altered. At first it is
impossible to admit that you did the best you could given what you knew (your own level of maturity) at
the time. Do you really know a parent who gets up in the morning and asks, “Now let’s see what I can do
today to make this child miserable”? Somewhere in your grief you will finally accept that you did your
best, but if you didn’t, you will learn to forgive yourself for your mistakes, resolving to do better.
Forgiving yourself and your child is a big hurdle along grief’s rocky road and is a sign of the healing you
are striving for.

As you watch any surviving children try to deal with the suicide of their sibling, you may experience
anger at the child who died, at others you feel contributed to the death, at society for its attitudes toward
suicide, or at God for letting it happen. Society generally does not understand the anger that can go with
grief.
Even to family members, your anger may seem inappropriate, frightening, and upsetting. For this
reason you may want to seek professional help to deal with the anger, you may want to write down your
feelings as a way of defusing them without doing harm to your surviving family and those around you,
you may want to attend a support group of bereaved parents where understanding is abundant, or you
may be fortunate enough to have close friends or clergy who will listen non-judgmentally. Do not
swallow your anger because it will fester inside you and increase the depression you are already
experiencing. Rational anger is a healthy emotion which can be a steppingstone toward positive
resolution of grief.
Remember that crying is normal so don’t censure yourself for it. As a bereaved parent you will cry, you
will get depressed, you will think you’re going crazy, and you may wish you could swap places with
your dead child. These are all normal grief reactions.
Acknowledge that your surviving children, if you have any, need your loving attention after their
sibling’s suicide since that death may make them feel especially fragile and less secure in their ability to
control their own lives. They, too, will feel society’s ambivalence about the manner of death. Because they
are trying not to upset you further, they may be reluctant to discuss their true feelings. If they seek others
for solace, be understanding of that but do embrace every opportunity for honest discussion and
reassurance of your faith in them and your love for them.

At the beginning of your grief journey, you will think nothing good can come from the soul-wrenching
experience of your child’s suicide, but you can grow from your grief and reach a new understanding of
life and the way it should be lived. Other families have come to terms with suicide, eventually sifting out
happy memories of their child to carry in their hearts. You cannot, after the fact, change the circumstances
of the death, but you can change yourself for the better. Look for every opportunity to do that.


Gabben

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2008, 01:49:14 PM »
Ami -- your accusing Carolyn of callousness because she did not express sympathy for your loss?

Actually Gabben - Ami accused Certain Hope of judging her because Certain Hope said
she was judging her.

Yes, Ami, I feel that I must have been judging you, but I'm not even completely sure why... and so I can't really explain further.

I have this thing where I cannot say something unless I really believe it and feel it...  and so when my feelings blank out, I cannot cover that up with words just to fill in the blanks. I just can't. It's a sort of speechlessness which I cannot even explain. I'm sorry that's the best explanation I have at this point.




Thanks GS -- I appreciate this and the article.

I was not evading the fact that Certain Hope was judging Ami -- I'm sure that if we were to get really honest, a lot of people, in their attempts to make sense of the tragedy and in human nature are going to make judgements, myself included. How painful for Ami, deep down she knows that people make the judgments.

However, I have not to acted on my judgements or acted in a judgemental way.

My question for Ami was an attempt at clarity seeking.

Also, Ami did tell Carolyn that she was callous, therefore, I was seeking clarity, does Ami perceive Carolyn as callous for judging or for not offering sympathy?

Does that help explain?

Lise

« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 02:11:02 PM by Gabben »

Leah

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2008, 01:51:57 PM »

I resonate with accord -- regarding the content and context of posting by GS.

I am immensely grateful that GS has posted with strength and courage -- posting and article alike.

Leah x


"You shall know them by their fruits" in all matters of the heart, which flows forth and is seen.
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

Ami

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2008, 02:12:50 PM »
If s/one is deliberately cruel to you,on the board or in 3 D life, you have some options opened to you and some closed. You CAN"T make them not be  cruel. You can't make them act differently.
  You can only try to tell the truth,as your heart and soul sees it. I know that we all can be cruel ,at times. We have all been on both sides of the equation,
  I am on the "bad" side ,now, but my definition of myself cannot be from  another person.
  So many of our threads are about this very issue. Who are we and who defines us?                 
  That is my lesson ,here.
         Ami
 
                   
 
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2008, 03:24:18 PM »
Also, Ami did tell Carolyn that she was callous, therefore, I was seeking clarity, does Ami perceive Carolyn as callous for judging or for not offering sympathy?




Lise,
 Why does it matter which one  it was? That really has no relevance to the general point, does it?                             Ami                     
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Hopalong

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2008, 03:51:20 PM »
Hi Lise,
I was wondering something.
In my covenant groups we have a ritual known as the "holding silence."
What it means is, when someone confesses or shares something very difficult and intimate about themselves, "good" or "bad"...we try to not to rush in with comment, soothing, fixing, or analysis.

It's very hard. We usually blow it. The whole purpose of us being together is to speak, and share. But now and then something happens and we do remember, or spontaneously, we are quiet for a while. Not always, but sometimes, it turns out that the holding silence allows the person who spoke to have a deeper realization. Some deeper step in the process that was represented.

I don't know if that applies here, but I wonder if it might. I wonder if it might have gone differently had you not stepped in to talk about Carolyn's posts to Ami. Now it has rapidly calcified into a firm judgement of Carolyn as cruel and a complete retreat from dialogue with her. How can they find a way through? (I don't know if there is an answer. Or has to be. And I certainly understand your impulse to speak about it. Practically irresistible.)

I'm not sure that wouldn't have happened anyway. But sometimes a holding silence gives space for important things to happen in. I would have liked to leave the space for them to cross. Maybe (or not) something profound would have happened. (I'm not blaming you or judging you for speaking, Lise...I only think about things like this in hindsight, after an interaction has happened. I'm just trying to figure out if I do see anything useful. Maybe not.)

Another cycle can be, we judge someone for being judgmental...on the cycle spins.

I have a feeling Carolyn was trying to share something very difficult and if there was a desire to wound, she was not in touch with it. I think it came out of unawareness. I don't think Ami is wrong to wall herself off from having that pain added to her grief. I would too.

(I have found that under certain alignments of things, certain stresses, I am forced to own that I am also capable of cruelty. Iow, a desire to wound. I sure don't like it, but it's a part of my humanity. Usually, for me, if I have done something like that--it's usually verbal--I don't see it as cruelty at the time. In the moment it's a kind of foggy impulse, a brief compulsion. Afterward, I'm in shock. Horrified.)

I see them both as human, and as good. We can all hold them there.

Thanks for listening...compost at will.

love
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Gabben

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2008, 04:04:54 PM »
Thanks Hops for your post.

Much of what you wrote did not resonate with me.

One view of this situation, which I do not think you have seen, is that Carolyn and I have grown close in the last few weeks as well as Ami and I are also very close, which you know.

There are many of conversations I have with Ami and Carolyn off the board which are full of support, respect and care for each other. Ami and Carolyn are both of my friends and both support me.

Given that dynamic or limited perspective it feels a bit strange for you to just step in the situation on this thread.   

And my very first thought when I saw your post to me was "uh-oh watch out, here comes the criticism disguised as concern

However, I appreciate the time you took to express ideas.


Peace,
Lise

Gabben

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2008, 04:18:50 PM »
(I have found that under certain alignments of things, certain stresses, I am forced to own that I am also capable of cruelty. Iow, a desire to wound. I sure don't like it, but it's a part of my humanity. Usually, for me, if I have done something like that--it's usually verbal don't see it as cruelty at the time. In the moment it's a kind of foggy impulse, a brief compulsion. Afterward, I'm in shock. Horrified.)


Hi Hops actually I do have to say I resonate with this part very well.

I am capable of great cruelty too and I have wounded others out of ignorance, impulsiveness, old anger, vindictiveness, feelings of threat, shame, etc....I have wounded many people in my life. I also have had to face those I have wounded to express my regret over my wrong, acknowledge their pain and express my desire to not harm them again, even the N's in my life. This I have done.

Healing from and N parent is a catch 22. We need lot's of love and acceptance in order to cope with our own undeveloped emotionally wounded and sometimes impulsive child. When others continue to make you feel ashamed, out of there own shame, it just perpetuated the feelings of shame.

Lise


« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 04:39:18 PM by Gabben »

Certain Hope

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2008, 04:25:25 PM »
I would like to apologize once again to Ami for my boorishness. Again, I am sorry, Ami. And I don't expect to be able to convince you of anything re: my intent. The fact is, yes, a person can live as long as I have on this earth and be that ignorant.
Thought I was doing a good thing, to clear the air, after my lengthy silence. I was wrong.

GS, thank you very much for the article you posted and for your comments. Yes, I was caught up short... shocked, actually... but now I can see it - and in part that is due to your thoughtful expression of concern here.

Hops and Lise, thank you for seeing my heart through all the muck I've thrown onto myself.

Hops, you wrote: I have a feeling Carolyn was trying to share something very difficult and if there was a desire to wound, she was not in touch with it. I think it came out of unawareness. I don't think Ami is wrong to wall herself off from having that pain added to her grief. I would too.

If there was a desire to wound, I am still not in touch with it. The very fact that I am not in touch with feelings in this particular, isolated incident is the very reason why I never spoke up about it before.  And yes, this was very difficult to share... and self-seeking. That is why I'm apologizing.
And I agree that Ami is not wrong to wall herself off from having pain added to her grief.

As far as Lise's interjections here... I've appreciated them - that means I have learned from them -  and I don't think they've done a bit of harm.

Carolyn

Certain Hope

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2008, 04:27:02 PM »
(I have found that under certain alignments of things, certain stresses, I am forced to own that I am also capable of cruelty. Iow, a desire to wound. I sure don't like it, but it's a part of my humanity. Usually, for me, if I have done something like that--it's usually verbal don't see it as cruelty at the time. In the moment it's a kind of foggy impulse, a brief compulsion. Afterward, I'm in shock. Horrified.)


Hi Hops actually I do have to say I resonate with this part very well.

I am capable of great cruelty too and I have wounded others out of ignorance, impulsiveness, old anger, vindictiveness, feelings of threat, shame, etc....I have wounded many people in my life. I also have had to face those I have wounded to express my regret over my wrong, acknowledge their pain and express my desire to not harm them again, even the N's in my life. This I have done.

Healing from and N parent is a catch 22. We need lot's of love and acceptance in order to cope with our own undeveloped emotionally wounded and sometimes impulsive child. When others continue, out of there own shame, to make you feel ashamed -- it just perpetuated the feelings of shame.

Lise




Amen.

Hopalong

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2008, 05:04:52 PM »
((((((((((((Carolyn))))))))))))))

Hope I didn't hurt you, dear.

much love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Certain Hope

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2008, 05:13:03 PM »
((((((((((((Carolyn))))))))))))))

Hope I didn't hurt you, dear.

much love,
Hops

(((((((Hops)))))))  no, you didn't hurt me. I hurt myself, by not having the horse-sense to shut up.
I simply did not want to pretend.

The last time I spilled something like this, on a much smaller scale, was when I said something to you about craving a mother's love... it just popped out. Don't think I ever went back to that remark afterward, but it has haunted me a bit since... and I want you to know that I'm sorry if I hurt you with it. My regulator does not operate too well, at times...  but that's more about assuming that my intent is clear than any desire to inflict harm. When I'm truly angry and upset, I won't say anything. Ever.
Careless, thoughtless, insensitive... yes, at times. But not cruel.

Carolyn

Hopalong

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2008, 05:19:07 PM »
Oh heavens, you've never hurt me, hon.

Don't remember the specific post but DO remember I had a lightbulb one day and knew I feel safe with you.

I learned so much from getting a grip on my kneejerk scared-of-Christians stuff here, and you've been a huge part of that, Carolyn. I'm grateful.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Certain Hope

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2008, 05:38:54 PM »
Thanks, Hops... I'm glad to know that and only wish that I'd asked before.
I would like to not be so relationally clumsy, but I'm not there yet.
Having lived in a virtual cave for so many years, I found a persona of sorts online - - and promptly met N.
One thing's for sure... he left me persona-free.

With all my heart, I appreciate your patience with me. I don't feel shamed by you... ever.
And I've almost overcome my knee-jerk fear of agnostics, although some Christians still frighten me.

Love,
Carolyn

Gabben

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Re: Rape of the Heart
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2008, 05:46:00 PM »
Lise,
 Why does it matter which one  it was? That really has no relevance to the general point, does it?                             Ami                     

Hi Ami -- from my perspective it has relevance but my perspective is besides the point, it is not important, sorry if I offended you in asking the question.

Lise