Newbie

[Portia]

Somebody, don’t patronise me please. I know who I am. I do not need you to monitor my responses here and give me feedback on my behaviour.

From your last post it seems to me that you want the current topic to be me and my problems as you see them.

Is that the current topic? Is that what you want?

A little child deserves respect and does not need to earn it.
That respect is one thing in this life that should be assumed.
That respect is a given.
The child does not have to earn that respect, Portia.

Enough. This sticks in my throat, my eyes. A little child deserves respect Somebody? I want to weep.

I can’t take any more today. I feel unwell again. I feel physically unwell. I’m outta here. But I’ll keep coming back Somebody to ask you. I really want to know what your H did. So I’ll keep asking until you’re ready to tell us. Maybe that won’t happen? Whatever.  P

[Somebody]

I understand that you are tired now Portia.

I am going out to cut the grass.

Wish me luck.

The stupid lawn mower keeps breaking.

I find cutting the grass very therapeautic.

Take your time Portia and know that I feel no anger toward you.
I really don't.

I don't want you to feel guilty or shamed for having a desire to control this thread because it is not your fault that you were taught to behave that way.

I do want you to consider one thing.

You say you "cant'".

Think about that.
You can't help laughing inappropriately.
You can't stop yourself from reacting inappropriately.

Are you saying you have a problem that cannot be dealt with??

No Portia.
You are responsible for controlling your own impulses and you are the only one who can do that.

((((((((((((((((((P))))))))))))))))))))))) I mean it.

I want to be friends (even though you say the people on the net are not "firends").  If we were to relate to eachother in a much more respectful manner, and the trust that has so far been lost were being rebuilt, I think we could actually be net-friends.  How about that for a term?

Take care Portia.  I really do mean that.

[el123]

Somebody,

I do not feel that Portia is trying tocontrol the thread nor is she 'crazy-making' as you say.  She is simply trying to get the information that probably anyone reading through this thread would need in order to make an accurate assesment of the situation.  

The reason that your post brings out such strong emotions in most of us is this:  We all know to some degree what it is like to be abused and feel that we are helpless in knowing that your daugher has gone through/ will deal with for *life*  with what appears to be your consent (by not leaving your H for good you are 'condoning' the behavior on some level).

Nobody should have sworn at you, Somebody.  We can emphathize with you on that.  But abuse of a child trumps swearing and I think that is why Portia did swear (don't mean to speak for you, Portia, but this is what it appeared like to me).  Kind of like a child running into the street.  The mother may yell or run out and grab the child roughly to get him/her out of the street.  The important thing was to get the child out of danger, not whether the child was yelled at/ grabbed in order to do this.  

This thread made me feel sick to my stomach at times.  I have three small children and love my H/ their dad.  But if he *EVER* harmed them in this way, I would leave him.  Period.  This, IMO, would be the *most loving* thing to all involved (including him).  It's so hard to hear about a child being abused in this way and for all of us being unable to help that  child.  Please, Somebody, try to see that we have nothing to prove here.  No reason to bully you or treat you with disrespect.  However, we are MORE concerned with your innocent daughter and want to help her by getting through to you, her MOTHER.

Take care,
-El

[Somebody]

Well El,

I totally understand what you are saying in regards to what you think you would do if your husband did something like this, because I thought I would do the exact same thing, and I had no problem in voicing that idea either.  We are definately all on the same level there.

On the other hand, it has not happened in your family yet.  You have not made a decision about it because you have not had to.  You do not know what you would do, but you think you know.  So did I.

Let me correct you by saying that I said that Portia's inappropriate laughter made her appear to be the one "crazy making".  I disagree with what you think about the control issue, which has been plainly stated here.
As a matter of fact, you are enabling her to continue with that control issue, sorry to say, no insult meant or intended.  Just an observation.

Are you saying that I do not know what it is to be abused?  Please reread my original post.

Contrary to your assumption, I have made it quite clear to all involved, including in this thread, that I neither condone, accept, believe to be acceptable, nor find anywhere easy to stomach, on any level, to any degree---my h's behaviour.  However, I have made a decision.  I have made a very sound decision based on a number of things which are necessary in order to make a sound decision.  I took my time about making that decision (but was immediately deemed "condoning", as here, because I did indeed take my time to find out all of the facts and make a sound decision based on a whole bunch of really necessary stuff.  But I didn't come here to discuss my decision, how I came to make it or otherwise, although I probably would have discussed that, had I been treated with respect).

The respect I demand.  The respect all people deserve.  Sorry to say.  It's a basic human right.  Mine has been greatly violated here.

Are you empathizing with me El regarding the swearing thing?  I think you are trying to say that and I do appreciate that.  Thank you.  I have already complimented Portia on correcting that swearing at people thing.

After the mother runs out into the street, El, and grabs her child, and protects her, her next obligation, El, is to appologize for yelling.

"I'm sorry I yelled at you.  I love you.  I don't want you  to get hit by a car.  That's why I yelled.  That's why I grabbed you. etc or maybe less, depending on the child's age, developmental level, etc but the bare minimum- I'm sorry I yelled.  I love you."

I don't hear that here.  I don't hear I'm sorry I swore at you.  I reacted badly.  I didn't mean to hurt you.  Am I deaf????????

You have assumed that I did not run out into the street.
That is an incorrect assumption.

Be as concerned with my child as you like.  That does not give anyone a reason to bully anyone, nor does it give anyone justification to assume that I have had any less concern than anyone else here.  I'm her mother, for crying  OUT loud (did anyone see that movie??).  I love her more than words.   I don't understand why it is so easy to assume that I was, have not been, nor still am, concerned about her.  How can you decide that?

Your assumption is incorrect.

The disrespect that has been shown was unwarrented and cannot be explained away.  Responsibility must first be taken for that lack of patience and that quick, judgemental hammer that has come down on my voice.

I am sorry to point this out.

I am sorry to wish to express my feelings but I do have a right to do that and I have a right to do it without being verbally abused before I have a chance.  I did not ask for anyone's opinion.  I don't want anyone's opinion because I am not worried about what other people think.

I am however, starting to understand my sister's behaviour a whole lot better.

No insult meant.  I really do not wish to hurt your feelings El and I do appologize in advance if I have done so.  I stand by what I say and that is that we are all capable of behaving pretty badly.  I understand it.  I can genuinely empathize pretty well.  Not just with my daughter.

And that is what I came here to try to do more so, with my sister.

[Somebody]

If I were you Portia, I would have thought:

"I hope the stupid lawn mower runs over her and chops her into a million pieces".

I'm quite capable of evil thoughts too, believe me.

Just letting you know, it started to rain.  I had to quit cutting the lawn.  I'm off to grocery shop now.  I won't ask for your good wishes again, as that was a bit much for me to ask.

I do want to appologize to you.  You said that post by the guest that ended with idea that the big issue here was swearing wasn't yours.  I didn't believe you.  I had no reason not to.  I'm sorry.

I would like you to know something and I hope you will believe me.

I have not posted on your ramble thread at all.
Not once.

If there is someone on this board who is tormenting Portia, would you please get a grip??  That is really weird, childish, nutty behaviour.  Please try to have respect for Portia and please try to behave in a more mature manner.  We all act a bit nutty once in awhile so please, just quit it.

Have a fabulous day everyone!  I really do mean that.  Try hard to curb those evil thoughts about me (that you may be having) and give me a tiny bit of a break, please?  Please do not assume that I am somehow a very immoral person.

That assumption is specifically and quite seriously, incorrect.

[Learning]

Somebody,

I have been debating all day as to whether I should respond again on this thread or not.  I was very interested in your conversations with Portia this morning.  The thing that I don't understand is why a swear word is such a big point of contention.  I understand that it can hurt to be swore at, yet is that really what you are hurting most about?  Perhaps it is more the dismissal of your point of view that hurt.  I respect Portia very much.  The fact that she swore only indicates to me the strength of her feelings.  Yes it is disrespectful in this case, and I think that was the idea.  Is it respectful for you to continue to push an agenda of accepting child abusers to people who have clearly stated that they are not in a place to do that?  Portia's first post to you was very considerate and truthful about her state of mind.  

There were many people on this thread who were/are upset with you, me included.  Yet you have said little to nothing to most of us.  Perhaps you are focused on Portia because you really admire her courage and her understanding of her own feelings.  That is just mo of course.  I think that you are trying to make her bend to your will.  As for her controlling this thread.  Do you really think that is even possible?  I don't.  And I don't think she is trying to.

El wrote a kind, thoughtful post.  For the record, I agree with her.  

You responded:

On the other hand, it has not happened in your family yet.

Are you saying that her husband will molest her children?  This idea that everyone does this has been the crux of your argument for staying with your husband.  I am seriously, seriously wondering if you truly believe this.  Is it because of statistics you have read?  Or has someone told you this?  I am very curious.

Somebody, I am going back to your post that really pushed my buttons.   I hope you will induge me as I am trying to understand better.  The first is in regard to this link...

http://mtoomey.com/theshamed.html

I browsed through this and I don't understand what you are trying to say with this.  Can you clarify?

Being abused does not negate everyone else's feelings.
We all need our feelings acknowledged and we all need encouragement.

I think this is difficult to understand because you sound so detached.  It doesn't sound personal at all.  It just is hard to relate to.

I encouraged my children and focussed on them and made them my priority (and I continue to do so-but I haven't included that information and I am sorry for that). Our relationships are very much better now that all our "professional help" was dispersed with and we simply began to communicate with eachother, without interference. I love my children more than life itself and I would die for them.

I wish you would give more details.  Most of your writing is your judgement of the situation.  Perhaps some examples of actual events would help me and others see your point.

I taught them correctly and that is why my child "told" about this past crime, when my younger child started to near the age the older child was, when this originally happened, years ago.

I can't help asking why she didn't tell you (as oppose to your sister) aand why she didn't tell right away.  For me this indicates that she did not trust you.  Any thoughts?

I will not cast judgement on a person who begs for forgiveness and who takes responsibility for their behaviour and takes steps to correct it.

That sounds good to me except that in your case you are going beyond just not casting judgement.  You are living with a person who, it appears, has a disease and you have not indicated exactly how he has been cured of this disease.  Maybe he has...how has he done this exactly?  It seems to me that if he has managed to overcome this addiction, he could help others by speaking about how he has done so.  

My sister had a right to vent her feelings but no right to do so to destroy me before I was even told about this.

Since your child told your sister about this matter instead of you, I find it difficult to believe your perspective in this matter.  I know many people who feel attacked by other people who are practising justice and confronting a wrongdoing.  Perhaps your sister didn't handle it perfectly, but imo neither have you.  I just can't understand how you have so much compassion for the man who hurt your child, yet so little for the one hurt and the woman who helped her.  This part really upsets me.  I feel sad that you can't understand that.  

I did my very best to help my kids through this, I tried to help my sister and understand her feelings and behaviour, and I have been through hell trying to forgive my husband, and trying to gain some kind of understanding into his "sick" and beguiling behaviour. It is not something I would have ever dreamed of doing nor is it something most other people usually do. But in these circumstances, of which you do not have all the facts, I made my decision. It was not easy to stomach and I appreciate that it is very hard for you to accept or understand and that it upsets you. [/quote/

This is where I really start to get upset.  I understand you feel a major burden here and yet it seems to me that you feel like you are the biggest victim in all of this.  And you continually speak as if you are the one who is right and everyone else is wrong, weak, ignorant.  This is how you talk about the members of your family and this is how you speak about most members of this board.  That upsets me.

ree with Les that some kind of real "treatment" is necessary to correct this behaviour. There is none BECAUSE people are free to refuse it and because of that, our system allows them to go on behaving in this way.

Then why are you sure that your H won't do it again?  I just don't get it.

my husband is classified as a dangerous sexual preditor because there is only one catagory of classification in this country, and by slapping my child on the butt he IS placed in the same bucket with those who have perpetrated horrific deeds upon children, because there is only one bucket-both are considered the same thing- sexual assault.

And shouldn't he be classified as a sexual predator?  I really don't understand your point of view.  I'm with Portia, what did he do?  Really?  Maybe then we can understand.

Please try to get ahold of your emotions and just hear me. I don't mean to patronize and I am sorry if I am coming across that way.

You are coming across patronizing and that is upsetting.

We, as mothers are trying to protect our children but it is not working. This is happening.
And when it happens, the mothers are getting the blame. The criminals are refusing treatment and walking away. And the victims, are not healing because our "therapists" encourage all of us to wallow in misery.

This is a huge generalization.  It just serves to diminish your personal experience.  Statistics be darned...I try to live in the specifics of my life and not be over concerned about what the media is reporting to me.  mo

1 in 10 men have done this or are doing it. 1 in 10. I can't get these numbers out of my head. I'm not the only one who's married to these men, I'm just one who is aware of it.

How do I know my husband is telling me the truth? How do you know yours is?

OK, my first instinct here is to get quite upset at this type of reasoning (or lack of)...but I will try to approach it calmly.  Perhaps since you seem to really believe that most men are dogs, you feel more secure staying in with your H cuz you know what he is capable.  If you were to move on, you may find a guy that doesn't act this way, yet you would always be questioning and perhaps you may not want this sort of uncertainty.  I used to feel that way.  Of course, we never really know what another person is capable of, but if we pay attention to what they are doing and saying we get a pretty good idea.  And of course it never hurts to check up on them once in awhile.  Your H has already given you a strong indication of what he is capable of (mo).

I want to protect children from this.

Somebody, perhaps you have decided to be your H's watchdog?  Perhaps that is why you are here at this board.  If so, imo you don't have to do that.  You can let it go and take care of yourself.  I may be way off base here.

I will f off now.

OK this is where you really got me.  This line makes it sound like you think this is all a joke and you seem to be taunting Portia.  And now that you are beating up Portia about swearing, it further beguiles me because you mirrored the word right back to her.  

Somebody, sorry this is so long.  My intent here is to help you understand my point of view and nothing else.  I don't think you are evil and I don't wish you any harm.  

Sincerely,
Lisa

[Rachel]

I don't think anybody is getting that this woman's point of view seems to be intractable. She has more ammo than all of us combined. That indicates to me that she has a problem....yes, I am talking in the third person. It's sort of rude. But I'm getting a bit tired of the people here with prissy sensibilities. Swearing is now worse than staying with a child molestor? Sorry, I don't see how that squares up.

I do have a hard time with Somebody coming on and whining about her big bad sister when she is still with the man that compromised her daughter. We are not all a bunch of zany weirdos here. I think most people with a conscience will be alarmed at her insistance that we focus on the sister rather than her. In fact, it seems downright delusional that she would try to force a bunch of strangers to see her point of view. Why is she so invested in us seeing her point of view.

Frankly, I don't and won't see her point of view. Unlike the last poster, I think we need to see the evil. You can't fight something you can't name. And to me, being more upset with her sister than her husband is tantamount to evil, even though that seems like a word a lot of people don't feel comfortable embracing.

Somebody knows in the real world that people are going to shun her. They already have. Why do we have to try to understand. This is a board about healing, not a board to force a point of view...a rather tiresome point of view if you ask me

I am getting rather alarmed at certain persons concentrating more on vocabulary and so called respectful communication when there is a lot of passive agressive (patronising) communication coming from the "keepers of the right way to speak" circle. Please get over yourselves. I'm not trying to be flip here, but I am getting annoyed. People who take take everything so personally are rendering everyone else voiceless imo.

Rachel

[Anonymous]

Hi Somebody, I read your very long post with interest. I can see you've spent a lot of time into trying to present a 'scenario change' to change the focus of the thread away from you and your H, which I agree needs changing. You seem to want it to focus on correcting Portia. I think that's your choice and voice. But I also have choice and voice. And I just wanted to comment on a couple of your comments, if that's okay.

Somebody said

Please do not be insulted.

But surely that's the person's choice. Can you allow them choice and free will please?  

Then Somebody said

Swearing is verbal abuse.  

And the same goes for sexual abuse of children, or don't you think so? It is sexual abuse. But that doesn't seem to concern you as much as being sworn at. Let's not mince words. Your H is a predator of your children, while he was sleeping with you. And you've sided with him. Your sister realises this.

Then Somebody said

You cannot redefine verbal abuse to suit your needs.

Then by the same standard, you cannnot redifine sexual abuse of children to suit your needs.

Then Somebody said

If swearing were not deemed so, then we would all be happily raising our kids by constantly swearing at them, and our teachers would have gone to great ends to teach us the most descriptive ways of using and the correct way of spelling -our swear words.  (Can you picture that?  What fun that would be eh?).

Likewise, if sexual abuse of children were not deemed inappropriate, then we'd all happily raise our children to be constantly sexually abused, and our teachers would go to great ends to teach children how to have appropriate sex with their step-fathers, and how to make sure that when they do, that their little vaginas don't tear all the way up to their rectums, so as to need stitches. Or as in little boys, that their anuses don't split so wide open, needing major surgery. Teachers would tell them how to do it so as not to cause injury. Can you picture that?What fun would that be eh?

The type of injury, just physical injury alone that no doubt your H would have happily inflicted if your child had agreed? Or did he just want a head job? In which case that's okay then, and I have no problem that. NOT!  

Obviously swearing is the real issue here folks.

Somebody, I posted this. And I am not Portia. You continually repeat that you don't want this thread to be about your children, or your H or your sister. That you want this thread to be about your feelings.

Yet when you first came here you wanted it to be about your evil sister and your daughter.

I don't expect you'll tell us what his offer was. Offer. Very strange word to use. Sounds like he wantd to do something to her. What? But as you say, no matter.

Your thread may about your feelings, to you. But if I want to read it, it'll be about what I think and what strikes me as the real issue to me. You can't make that decision for me. And tell me what I'm to focus on.

Somebody says, "Oh well, I told you about my H and his offer, but let's forget all about that now, and talk about me and my feelings.."

No, sorry Somebody. Can't oblige you there.

When I go back to your initial posts and all those initial repsonses I can see why people got so hot. You were in denial and frustrating the heck out of anybody who challenged your value judgments. You still are. That's okay, that's your right.

You're wrong about others trying to control you and 'your' thread. That's a joke, isn't it? This is public anonymous internet forum. You posted a 'topic' for discussion. The thread is made of of all of the opinions of the contributors. That's all. You don't own the thread, only your own comments. And you can't dictate the course of the thread, or the freedom and options of people to say what they want to, once they do.


I read this topic of yours is about the sexual predator behaviour of your H, and your the child, who is the main victim. And Somebody, I'm sorry to have to say this to you, but I don't sense that you have many warm human feelings. It seems to me, in my humble opinion, that you seem to be enjoying all the attention. And you seem to me to be so cold and hardened and indifferrent.

And "NO"!  Somebody, it doesn't happen to all children. And it won't happen in most families. Yes, the stats are bad. But the stats of it not happening are much higher than it happening. The majority don't do it or accept it. The majority of men wouold never do such a thing. Civilisation is still quite civilised, on the whole.

So whenever you post your cold hard stuff, because I'm free to post my opinion, I might just pop back and recall my big post.

As a reminder to myself of what the words 'dangerous sexual predator of children' really means. The words 'child abuse' seem to be flippantly thrown around like 'pass the sauce' sometimes.

A small child being sexually abused, shocking! Some guy  wanting to do it!Shocking!

One friend of mine as a child 1960, being abused so hard by perpretrator step-father, she collapsed in his arms like a rag doll, passed out, and he kept going, kept abusing her, from behind, her internals and her back passage were ripped wide open. And when he'd finished, he put her back into her little bed, and then he unlocked her bedroom window, and he tried to make it look like someone else had entered the house and done it to her. She was dying in her bed in the morning when her mother found her. She didn't die, thankfully. And yes, eventually the step-father was finally nailed/caught.

And she's a real live person. A friend of mine. But dreadfully scarred emotionally and physically. I've heard her story more times than I care to remember. And there are others too I can post if you'd like. But Somebody, anyone who has the type of sickness inside themselves to even consider doing anything to a child, your posting about it  is going to cause some very powerful emotional reactions from people here. Why did does that surprise you?

But I think you knew that would happen, and many here would react strongly, when you came here with your topic.    Didn't you?  That's what I think now after reading your twisiting and mind games with Portia. That made me feel sick to read. You've found a environment where you've managed to manipulate it to make Portia the perpetrator, and you have become the victim.

I really do think you thought you could manipulate this effect too, perfectly well. That's why you didn't go into the detail, isn't it?

My personal opinion, for what it's worth folks. I think this is a game Somebody is playing on this board with all of our heads and hearts.

[phoenix]

delete

[Anonymous]

Just stop feeding the Trolls and they will go away.

[Somebody]

Dear Learning:

This is not about swearing.  It's about respect.
The problem of child sexual abuse isssss a problem about respect.
This is not about my story or my feelings- it's about respect for my right to tell my story and express my feelings.
This is not about my opinion.  It's about my right to express it and the respect I expect and that I have blatently, loudly, utterly proclaimed that all people have a right to demand.

People are upset with me? I've said little or nothing to the one's who have tried to be kind and show respect?  You're right.  I have done it again.  I have picked those who have shown a lack of it to respond to.  Thankyou, all of you who are trying so hard to be respectful.  I can't respond to however many people are on this board because I don't have that much time to spend here typing and because I can already see that you do not need to have this important thing pointed out to you or because I am having a hard time thinking of a tactful way to do so.  Tact is out.
I do appologize and I do mean it.

Batters up!
The war is over!
This is now like baseball.
No wonder Ltl got off this merrygoround so quick.
Most people would.
I have had the courage not to get off because I really think it is important for me to let ya'll see this very, very, simple, important thing.

Respect.

I'm not upset with P.  I just noticed that she was behaving with a lack of respect, as were others, and I took particular offence to her swearing.  No worries.  Take offence to what you find offensive and please respect my right to do so also.

Do I think it is possible to control a thread?  Take a look around?  Seems to me there is a big effort to do so.  And that there has been a huge attempt to justify a lack of respect, while doing so.

I'm not pushing an agenda of accepting child abusers.
I'm saying, all people deserve the basic human right of respect.
I'm saying- that I have put great thought into this problem because I have a severe aversion to the behaviour (child sexual abuse) and because it happened in my family and because I looked for information which might solve the problem (because I believe in trying to solve problems, rather than covering up symptoms).
I see the problem as a lack of respect for the person - the child.
I wonder, in a big, big way, if solving the problem may actually come about in some respectful manner?  I think this may be so.

I know---who wants to show respect to a person who abuses a child, in any way?
None of us "want" to.  It's against our better judgement.  It's against everything they have shown by their behaviour.
The bottom line is----how can we teach them to respect if we do not show them the least bit?  That's what I ask myself, not because I am evil, not because I "can't empathize" with my own child, or with you, or with others here, not because I am trying to patronize, not because I am this or that or in denial or whatever else members of this board have proclaimed me to be, no I didn't do this first, it wasn't my priority, but because I would like to see an improvement in the stats, once I bothered to look for them.
Because I would really like to see this behaviour stopped before it begins.

This is not a place to voice?
Round and round we go.

People here are upset with me?
Nope.  They're upset with my opinion and they believe it is ok to show me no respect for voicing it or my feelings or anything else because they have deemed me "a coddler".  Made that assumption.  Seriously incorrect one at that.

I'm trying to "bend" anybody to my will.
Nope.
I'm voicing my stuff here.
But there is a lack of respect for my right to do so.

"bend" to my "will".  I think the thing here is quite reversed.  I haven't bent to anyone else's will, have I?

El did write a kind thoughtful post- but she's missing the info re respect as you are.  I'm sorry, Learning.  I really do not mean to show you any disrespect by pointing this out.  But the crux of this is not an argument about whether or not I'm right or wrong- but about my right to decide what to do in regards to my family without being dammed-respect for those boundaries-respect for me as a person- respect for my ability to make a sound decision-respect for a whole lot of stuff.

Im' not Karla Holmolka either.  But there are those who may assume thus.
Because they do not respect my right to my voice and assume that I must be daft or evil or whatnot.  I don't know how to make this any clearer.  I pointed out the stats to inform.  They are not an "excuse" for my decision.
Ya'll deny 'em if you want to.  It doesn't matter.  You might be right.  They may be inccorect.  Maybe not.  I don't like those stats.  That's all I mean to say.  I'd like to see them lower.  Much, much, much lower.

I knew when I accidently used the word "yet" at the end of the sentence in regards to El's not having to make that decision, I would have to appologize.  I'm sorry.  I said that incorrectly.  I didn't realize it until afterward.  I had to get on with living.  I let it go.  I'm dealing with it now.  I meant- she has not dealt with that in her life (and El, I hope with all of my heart you never have to, and the chances are very good that you won't ever have to) and I do appologize for that imperfect statement.

I'm sorry again.  I've forgotten who's said what now.  I'm trying to get this down as best I can.  I will do my best to address what ya'll are saying (I love that southern slang-no I'm not joking inappropriately, I'm trying to ease the tension here.)  I will try to speak in a respectful manner.  I've been trying to do that.  If I appear not to show you that respect, it may be because I am making a mistake.  Please forgive me.  I'm doing the best that I can.  This is really a challenge, to say the least.  However, a challenge I have decided to take on because I really do believe in basic human rights- in the basic human right we all have to respect which begins the day we are born.

Learning, I don't think you're evil either and I don't wish you any harm.

Rachael- my point of view is intractable?  Yep.  Respect.
I have a problem understanding and or accepting the way people show a lack of respect to eachother.  Swearing is a lack of respect.  Sexual abuse is a lack of respect.  These are two very different problems with a common base.  A lack of respect.

I'm staying with a child abuser shows what?  There is no respect for my decision or my right to make my decision.  Twist.  Turn.  Label.  Diagnose.  "most men are dogs"?  Respect.

What my "h is capable of"?  You're way off base if you think you can decide that.  Respect.
This is all a joke?
I'm beating up Portia?
I mirrored her swearing?
You're sorry you've voiced such a long post?
Round and round we go.

I won't be shamed and I'm sorry if the link I posted about shame is confusing and I won't accept what is being dished out onto my shoulders.
I'm finished clarifying.  The war is over.
It's slam dunk time.

I'm "detached".  I keep "twisting".  People want more about the "actual events" now.  Detached where exactly?  Respect.
My words are twisting?  This is a very clear n trait that I have definately observed, not just here. Respect.

Respect.

Want more info?  To twist and turn and label and dish shame out about and otherwise thoroughly pollute?
Respect.

Why didn't my daughter tell me or tell me right away.
There are many possible reasons.
You have only suggested the negative ones.

I "have not indicated" the cure of "the disease", "the addiction".
Your generalization.  An assumption.  Incorrect.

Now you want him here to slice up?
Respect.

You don't "believe" me.
Yes.  I got that feeling right away.  No respect.
You've decided that I have "so little compassion" and for whom?
This is upsetting and it makes you feel sad?
Welcome to the club.
I'm sad and upset that this bunch has so little respect.

You've decided that I "feel like the biggest victim in all of this"?
and that I think all other opinions are "wrong, weak, ignorant"?
This isn't a generalization?
This is a fact?
You can be sure of this?
You know what I'm thinking?
Respect.

I keep "continually" twisting?

I've already answered some of your questions but you don't get it.
How can I be sure? How can YOU?

You need the nittygritty details so you can do what?
Respect.

I have appologized for patronizing  and I notice, I'm the only one taking responsibility here for my own behaviour.

Please, focus on whatever you want to (as if I can stop you from doing that?)
I demand respect.
Are you arguing this or not?
Do all people deserve respect or not?
Do we want to teach this in the biggest way possible or not?
What example do we most want to present?

The next person may argue this basic human right.
I am getting an idea of how Jesus must have felt.
Even if you don't believe in the guy, wow, he had opinions and tried to voice them too and they crucified him, as the story goes.
Poor guy.  How dare he hang around with all the sinners of the world!
What a crime he committed.
Respect.

"See the evil"?  I'm upset "more" with my n-sis?
Nice incorrect assuming.
I'm lately, of late, after all this time, dealing with those feelings, came here to express them, etc....whoops.  Explaining again.  Defending my statements.
Respect.

 "Tatamount to evil"?  Respect.
What upsets me are statements like that one because they show such a blatent lack of respect.   I am indeed sickened.

"a lot of people don't feel comfortable embracing" this?
Whew!!!  I'm glad of that.

Why do you have to try to understand?
You're right!!  You don't!!  No one does.  Let's just keep doing what we're doing then.  It's working fine.  You're happy with the stats or you don't believe them (deny) or whatever other excuse for ignoring them you can think up.

My point exactly.  Why do we have to try to understand?
I'm trying to explain my opinion on that.
Respect.

This is not a board to "try to force a point of view"?
Then why, in the name of Holy-go-take-a-dip are you trying to force your's on me?  You're opinion that I am in denial, that I have made a bad decision, that I should be ashamed, that I am evil, etc, etc, ect,
Respect!!

Guest-  I can't read that light coloured type very well.
Zing. I'm dipping and diving now. Racketball.  This is like racketball!
Respect.

This thread is about seeing a lack of it and I have taken control of the topic back for this very moment and put the focus back where it should have been in the first place.

There is a great lack of respect here.  Make no mistake.  I'm pointing this out and I'm being quite nasty about it.

"Freedom and options of people to say what they want to"?

Yep.  My point exactly.
I'm standing up for that freedom and pointing out the need for that to be done with respect.

You don't "sence" my "warm feelings"?
I have been very sincere, quite frequently here.
You don't believe me.
Respect.

You think I'm "enjoying the attention" because I voiced??
I'm "cold, hardened, indifferent"?.
I really am trying so very hard to control my anger now.
I admit it.
I "can't tell" the difference between disgust and ligitimate anger?

I don't like the stats. that I've read do you?
I believe in basic human rights, do you?
I'd like it better if the stats were lower, how 'bout you?
I don't deny them, but I would surely love to disappear in that mode and then I wouldn't even think about this problem or try to understand it or have a desire to bring about "change".

You plan to "pop back in" and recall your big long post?
Keep doing that.  I can't stop you.  But you're missing the point about respect, about basic human rights, about control issues.
And yep.  I'm pretty angry about that.

Sexual abuse is also about a control issue.
I agree the stuff about sexual abuse is "shocking"
My H is placed in the same pot as your friend's child's perpetrator.
It's abomitable (I wish I could spell) what happened to that poor child!!
I am outraged, as you are, I sence!!!

Please don't project that anger here on me or on my situation or on my opinion or on all the other issues that have been projected upon.
Please -detach--from that idea.

What I forgot to think about before posting here was the fact that I might be treated with extreme disrespect.  I admitted that I was pretty stupid to do that.  It was a stupid mistake, is a far more accurate statement.

Pointing out Portia's lack of respect is "manipulating"??

I know I've got everybody's words mixed up here now because as I have already stated, I'm pretty pc illiterate and I can't keep referring back to all of the posts here and get everything just perfect for ya'll.

Please, stop judging me.
Please have some respect.

Disrespectful, ignorant, demeaning, pointless, nasty name that---Troll.

I did lose my temper there.  I do appologize.  I think it's wrong to bash people for their opinions and then to bash them for standing up for their opinions and then to bash them for anything that comes to mind or is assumed and with such a great, huge, large, big amount of disrespect.

I do not mean to behave in such a way to you.
I'm so sorry to have felt the need to make this real clear.
I am indeed, very sincere and I'm not going to say anything else about the way some here have come across to me as because I am trying to understand and empathize with you while at the same time, point out your lack of doing so with me.

[Somebody]

Portia, I did not post to your ramble thread, recently or at all.

someone just posted there for me.

someone who I suspect has an even bigger problem than just a lack of respect.

I'm sorry for that Portia and I'm sorry to you, whoever you are, that you feel the need to post for other people but don't have the guts to post for yourself and take your own name and say what you think and stand up for it!!

Now this, is extensively emotional.
I admit it.

[el123]

Somebody, *You* are the one disrespecting everyone here.  You are trying to force your beliefs down our throats.  We simply do NOT condone child abuse and you cannot muzzle *our* opinions on the subject.  You have come here asking for help.  We disagreed that your sister was the one with the problem.  I don't think that anybody here believes that you are being kind or *RESPECTFUL* to your daughter or you H by staying with him.  You are not being kind or *respectful* by ENABLING his behavior.  Your H has NO CHANCE to heal at your house with your daughters present.  If you truly want his healing as you say, you will leave him thereby giving him the only opportunity he will have to see his behavior clearly, unobscured by the desire he has for your daughter.

Your statistics, BTW, apply to sexual abuse of *any kind* by *anyone*.  I have been sexually harassed at work and being grabbed at on the train even people going overboard on dates after I've said "no" to them.  All of these people would fit into those statistics.  The percentage of *fathers* who molest their *daughters* is **much** less than 1 in 10 yet the emotional wounds last forever with *this type* of abuse.  And what is the point of giving statistics anyways, Somebody?  Because if lots of people do it than we're all ignorant to think that it can't happen to us?  Or that it needs to be dealt with?  Well, you for one will not help those statistics one iota with your enabling of it.

am getting an idea of how Jesus must have felt.

Jesus would  **never ** have harmed a child as you (yes *you* directly, Somebody) have done.  He would have protected and nurtured that child that was being abused.  Lovingly he would have sent your H *out of the house* for good, Somebody.

Slam me all you want, Somebody, I fully expect it as you have done all of us who disagree with you.  We will not be force fed by you, Somebody.  You truly need help.  You have a real problem seeing what others can see here and yet you will deny this tooth and nail.  You seem to be hell bent on us seeing you as empathetic yet fail the basics in this dept, IMO.

Sorry everyone for getting so bent out of shape over this.  I know that it's probably better to just not respond but I am so upset that Somebody can do this to her child.  It's hard to just stand by and not be able to do anything as her daughter's life is being damaged.  

-El

-El

[Somebody]

El

I did as you say.  I sent my husband away and I nutured her.
She is an adult now and does not live with me.

[phoenix]

delete