counterdependency - for besee

[dandylife]

Besee,

you wrote on the what helps board: "I got Narcissism and Intimacy after you were sharing about it way back.  Very very interesting to me and really rethinking the path I took.  I feel in recovery from codependency I became counterdependent - doesn't work real well in relationships, I don't think recovery from being a co-N means becoming an N - which IMO taking some of the me generation self-help stuff literally can produce"

I love that book - it really gives a new angle for developing intimacy - and for providing a "soft place" for your significant other to fall.

"Counterdependency" - that is a new term for me! Thanks - I had to look it up. Behaving as though you don't need anyone. Yes, I think that once you deal with n-ish behavior, a person might want to be away from all relationships for a while.

I am taking a long time myself to learn what a healthy relationship is like. And beyond that, - what healthy adulthood is like!

I think the next step on your journey might be to read Passionate Marriage by Dr. Schnarch, if you wish. Are you familiar with the term "differentiation"?

It's the catalyst for change in most relationships. One person decides things are not as they should be, so they begin to change, and as a result, the whole relationship changes. Maybe they no longer engage in the "dance" as before.

Even if you're not in a relationship now, the concepts are well worth reading about.

nice to hear from you,
Dandylife

[dandylife]

Besee,

I am looking at the diagram on pg 152. At our worst, the midst of all our troubles, was the "no self marriage". I was merged into him. When we divorced, obviously we were at the bottom, as soon as we seperated each of us turned to others for emotional connection, yes, quite true.

I'm not sure the exact distinction between "no self" and "no wife". maybe the insertion of the term "fear of loss of self" - I had not quite lost myself but was aware of the fusion? Maybe? How did you feel in the midst of "no wife"? And how did you change it?

Validation and acceptance are so important in a healthy relationship. And for BOTH to get needs met. Not just the one (the N!).

Passionate Marriage may be overly focused on marital therapy, BUT like I said, the concepts are gems that most can be applied to any relationship that needs un-merging - for lack of a better term.

Dandylife

[dandylife]

"how in practical terms were you able to bring that in to your marriage?"

a balance? where we both count?

Man, it's been a process.

I actually have gone back into a relationship with the person I divorced. We are living together again. And making it work!

Narcissism and Intimacy was a real catalyst for unveiling the true empathy that had vanished under years of diminishing behavior. I had to learn to be assertive. I had to leap off the cliff and be willing to actually leave him and be on my own for a while. I had to be able to set my own terms and followup - making sure that he was fulfilling what he promised in terms of changing his behaviors.

One thing that really helped me was seeing Dr. John Gottman out in Seattle. He was amazing as our therapist. At one point, I asked him (in front of my partner) "I see all these particular behaviors and to me they seem Narcissistic. What do you think?" He told me that he prefers not to use that label. He prefers to address particular behaviors. Boy did that open my eyes. For things to make sense to me, I wanted a label, but I realized that was just hurtful to my partner.

So, I came to see that dealing with the specific behavior I find repellant worked! So when my partner would order me around, I'd say, "Are you asking me to do that?" And it would jar him out of his auto-N-thinking and he would ask nice. Etc, etc.

It took vigilance!

I am imagining what it would be like to begin a new relationship and try to make sure it goes down the healthy route. I suppose it's all the same - dealing with negative behaviors as they happen so that you don't get into a rut.

Dandylife

[dandylife]

Leah,

I'm so glad you found that useful!

I've had so many a-ha moments and am very grateful for each one. (many have happened on this board!)

Thank you, too, for all your very informative posts.

All comments are welcome. (!)

Dandylife

[DailyMail]

I just read this now, so sorry I missed it earlier.

I don't appreciate Perls as a man, but I appreciate Gestalt therapy which he started.  One of the concepts that I DO believe in is the I-Thou.  REAL contact is made between 2 people when they can touch each other (in which way, take your pick, emotional, intellectual, physical, sexual) AND AT THE SAME TIME

feel and know their self

while they hear and feel the other.

That may be what you mean by differentiation.  In my own personal experience, because I was so aware of that natural human desire for contact, ESPECIALLY when I was so in love, AND BECAUSE my partner is a N and contact was always frustrated because he would not, could not get past the I-ness to the thou-ness (I was merely thing-ness, or it-ness) I became confluent, trying to push through his boundary in order to touch him and maybe be touched by him finally in a meaningful, genuine, authentic way I could believe in.

It never happened.

The contact-starvation created contact-obsession, and so the vicious cycle started.  He never saw my Thou, and after enough time, my own I started becoming blurred.

It most certainly is a dance macabre after awhile.

I don't know how that plays out between a Nparent and child.  I imagine it becomes a horror movie after awhile.

I don't know how partners can become strategic and ruthlessly protective of their own selves and boundaries in order to remain in relationships with N's while maintaining their safety at all costs.  It seems from the outside, from someone like me who would have most likely failed if I even knew enough to try, like just too damn much work, and with no hope at all for the kind of intimacy and real "knowing" I want so much from at LEAST ONE romantic relationship in my life.

This might need to be its own different thread topic, but my one undying desire (I dare not think of it as a fantasy) in this life, is to be known, REALLY KNOWN by one other person in this world, who loves me, and in the knowing not only of what makes me beautiful and smart and talented and strong and sparkling -- but also what makes me weak, moody, needy, ugly* and flawed, STILL LOVES AND ACCEPTS ME!  That there is someone with whom I can reveal the whole of me and still be loved.

While I know I loved my exN that way, and it's what kept me with him for 7 years despite how painful it was, I know now without a doubt, he was incapable of knowing me, and while I could love him till the cows came home, I couldn't do that and run perpetually on empty.   Not when I want so badly to have that kind of intimacy and love go both ways.

There is a deep desire in me to give, and give generously where my heart is concerned, but it can't be with anyone anymore who takes without giving mutually.

[dandylife]

Hi DailyMail,

You described a relationship with a male N partner to a T.

And by differentiation, I am talking about the un-tangling from that. The process of recognizing your enmeshment and becoming an I.

This board seems to have a few main "themes". One being children of N's. And another being spouses of N's. I happen to fit into both categories. My dad was an N. And then I married him! And to be fair - my exhusband/current partner has BPD with lots of N traits (Edit in: yes, he was official diagnosed by a cognitive behavior therapist). But he was master at the game of "the world revolves around getting MY needs met". And I got lost because I got sick of playing the game. I just gave up and - what do you call it - when you become deadened emotionally? I lost all that. Until I hit my boiling point and my passion for having a life returned with a vengeance. And I differentiated big time. But I was "lost" for 17 years.

That's a long time to be enmeshed.

7 years is a long time to be enmeshed with someone who doesn't see you as a full, complete, whole, rounded person (with feelings!)

Thank goodness there are ways to learn about this and expose it for ourselves.

I'm glad you found a way to untangle from your N partner. And thank you so much for sharing your description of the relationship. It's brilliantly stated.

Dandylife

[DailyMail]

Besee and Dandylife

THANK YOU SO MUCH for your responses!

I'm feeling more and more belonging as I engage in discussions like this with people like you.

yay

just briefly:

"untangling" such a HUGE pain in the ass to do, and so MONUMENTALLY important, I SO liked the metaphor of the knot used in another thread, so apt and reminds me of that beautiful but deadly knot a noose is made of....


"I-Thou" is what I want too, I suspect it's what we all want, and frankly it's difficult to do on an ongoing basis, when some narcissism is necessary for physical and emotional survival soemtimes -- the magic is knowing when to let go of oneself enough to meet your beloved where they are

I guess I'm looking for a fellow magician

(so glad to be here)

[dandylife]

Besee,

I haven't read Hendrix (not that I recall - may have read Getting the Love you Want years ago). I can see from the video on his web site that he has a similar outlook as is presented in the book, Narcissism and Intimacy.

He actually says, "The purpose of your relationship is to heal your partner."

or,

"Our job is to be present for our beloved."


I wouldn't agree with that.

That seems to me to be enmeshment (to me).

I would be more in tune with Schnarch's philosophy that differentiation is more important (and more positive) for your relationship.

I never got that idea from Schnarch (don't remember reading it particularly) about "safety kills passion". And in his book, actually, he talks about an exercise where you "hug until relaxed". Where you and your partner hug past the point where one naturally pulls away. I kind of looked at that as coming to place of relaxation and comfort with your partner and it opens you up to intimacy. So I guess I didn't really get that message. I'd have to think about it more, or go back and read and see if that message was really presented. I'm not sure it's important. What exactly is meant by "safety"? That can have many meanings.

To me, it would make sense that if you aren't "stretching" for something new, different, interesting to experience with your partner, perhaps that would be the safety being referred to. When you go into routines where you always do the same thing, (safety) etc, then the passion goes away. (?) That makes sense to me.

And fits with the message in Schnarch's book, Passionate Marriage.

I am comfortable with the concept of self-validation. I rarely look outside myself for validation. Perhaps comes from my childhood (never got validation, don't expect it. Learned to look to myself for soothing, etc.) I don't expect my partner to see, hear or understand everything about me or everything I present to him, in fact, I expect that I won't be able to get my message across a certain percentage of the time. That is okay with me.

Hendrix: "Self-soothing = emotional masturbation"  My opinion: right out of the starting gun I say I disagree strongly. I think that someone who "gets" differentiation - esp. someone who has been enmeshed and experienced all the positives and negatives of it first hand, and then who has differentiated and experienced all the cascading dominoes, would have to say that the most important thing in all of it is the ability to self-soothe. To soothe even when the other person is raging, blaming, cursing, blackmailing, etc.

I get the concept that he's saying that in a true intimate relationship, you are available to help emotionally soothe your partner, provide a safe space, be there for them, etc. But I think it's also very naive to think that this is the norm in relationships. Most poeple don't have a clue as to how to read emotions and be available for their partner. Most people haven't evolved to even handle their own emotions.

So I think that's a naive look at life. (IMO)

It's a wonderful thought!

I will read carefully the rest of your post as it is most interesting and comment a little later.

Thanks! Very thought-provoking.

Dandylife

[dandylife]

Besee,

Sorry you're having a difficult time with a relation. That sucks.

Perhaps I should qualify some of the things I said to be more clear. I am talking to you - knowing a bit about your past relationship which you shared - and that your outcome is to have a healthy relationship with no unhealthy enmeshment issues.

So, I am answering with those things in the forefront of my mind. For anyone out there reading - it may seem as if I am dismissing Dr. Hendrix work - I'm not. I'm sure that once a couple has come to a certain understanding of each other, and both are at about the same point in differentiation - and they've worked out their major conflict issues - what he's saying will help very much in establishing a healthy, mutual loving and supportive relationship.

Speaking as someone who has been through the very rough relationship that ran the gamut of bad behaviors, I am more "protect thyself" oriented and so I think I'm just at the point where Dr. Schnarch's philosophy appeals to me. It seems very supportive of the individual - and how, once you've come to KNOW yourself, you can then contribute more to your relationship. I am 100% in support of that concept.

So, I hope that helps to clarify where I'm coming from.

I also like the dynamic that Schnarch presents (for any relationship) where you go through cycles. You may be happy, blissful, intimate, sated, and then move towards a bit of tension, you may have a fight, you may travel on business and be out of touch, you may have a big issue you want to work on.....etc. etc. Point is the level of comfort and tension is always fluctuating. He suggests you use it, expect that, push yourself at times to the level of discomfort in order to learn more about each other and grow.

Once again, you have to be in a certain place with your partner in order for it to work.

(And it's easy for him to say - he's a marital therapist!)

Hope you have a relaxing, calm evening.

Dandylife

[dandylife]

Besee,

Yes, you have synthesized here some most valuable information! Excellent!

The other thing I'd add, which I learned from Dr. John Gottman is that there are usually a few (1-3) CORE issues that relationship conflicts can trace back to.

For my partner, it was insecurity which came out as _ ( jealousy, accusations of unfaithfulness, whining that 'you don't love me', neediness, clinginess)
-abandonment schema (so many people in his life had left or died, he was inner-prepared for me to leave - so he would treat me as if I was about to leave - ok to be mean, nasty, devalue me so he would be okay with the thought of me leaving)
-constant vigilance about security - safety - physical and finanacial (he grew up super poor and had alot of bad things happen to family members - car accidents, death, divorce, etc.)

For me, my core issue was
-authority - (bending to authority - my dad was a super freak tyrant so demandingness shut me down- made me feel hate)
-sex (we were enmeshed - and the book Passionate Marriage will talk about this - so he felt sex on demand was fine - we were one unit - so we both must want sex at the same time, right? this drove me nuts!!!)

Each two individuals are different, so have different "baggage" - filters they see life through - if you figure this out, you can figure out any conflict.

Also remember - there will be conflicts with NO SOLUTION. You must be okay with that.

Dandylife

[dandylife]

Besee,

you wrote, "and the difference between dialog and debate, the Nish person I'm thinking about only thought in competition and debate, if I'm dialoging and they are debating then they think they have "won"

How true! My partner is so proud of his "debate" skills.

When we saw a Ph.D. who evaluated us for marital therapy (who also knew us personally), she said his debate skills actually sucked. (!)

But, yes, that competitiveness in spirit was there all the time and also part of his need to be "one up" on me. We could never be considered equals in his eyes.


Your point about the being there for him - vs. being co-dependent for him - is a good one. I think that's where awareness comes in. Sometimes people are afraid to talk about their relationship and "where they are at". I really think there needs to be an understanding of where you are at in the relationship so they know - "we are equals in decision-making", "I will consider your opinion on every important issue, but I will decide for myself" , etc. all those things are important for understanding. So one person doesn't get to take an edge over the other. He kept saying things like, "you are not a business person", "you are not a good planner", "you know nothing about financial issues" "so just TRUST ME". Well, that takes away my power. After years of listening to his diminishing comments, I finally got sick of it. I got my own checking account, mutual funds, credit cards, etc. Then I said, "still think I'm a bad planner?" "Still think I can't manage money?" Point being - it takes action to follow up on your words.

Dandylife