Dad came to speak for Nmom

[flower]

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Thanks so much for your insight and support.
 It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
 
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven:  Ecclesiates 3:1

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[Anonymous]

flower,

I'm glad you checked in. I guess your father means well, but he definitely is clueless! There's something very wrong with him to wait around your house until someone paid attention to him. I suppose he couldn't return to your mother without having "done his job."

You weren't too nice to him. It sounds like you laid it out for him pretty directly. I suppose he has to distort his thinking tremendously to get through life with a psycho-wife. He's pretty weak in the mental department (and yes I think he is brainwashed). You did your best and you can be content with that effort.    There's going to be no change in these people whatsoever. You can now say you gave it your best shot.

BTW my father once tried to tell me that I was wrong after my mother acted out outrageously and I didn't contact her for more than a month. He pulled a bunch of manipulations meant to guilt or intimidate me into reaching out to her. All it did was result in my screaming at him over the phone (unheard of). It was a nightmare to have my father take my mother's side when she was clearly in the wrong. But my mother hasn't caused a big scene since. So maybe in the long run your talk with your father will do some good.

bunny

[les]

Hi Flower

Nice to hear from you again but sorry you are having to deal with all this still.

Some observations:

Your poor old dad probably has to listen to your Mother natter on and on all day, day after day about this. Not much else to talk about I imagine. So he probably desperately needs relief and doesn't know how to turn her off.  If only he could 'fix' things with you two maybe she would shut up! Just a guess.

Re: the letters you wrote re: admissions of guilt and wrong. I know from my experience it likely will never happen. It is, I believe, completely beyond an N to do this - to admit wrong doing. They would deflate like the Wicked Witch.  So just know you are right, you get it and decide if you want to move on, secure in that knowledge with no validation at all from her. It's what I've done. I don't have this never ending argument with her rolling around in my head any more. I'm right. That's it. It has to be enough and it is enough.

So it's a stand off in your case.  And that might be the very best way to leave it. I didn't take that option years ago so I am working with what is right now, today - an old disturbed woman who wants some contact.  I am so new at all this but here's what I am trying. So..if you decide to take a look at the deck! as your father has asked, here are my rules of engagement. I'm sure they are cleanly spelled out somewhere else but for what it's worth...this seems to be working for me.

1.  I am being very clear with myself about who I am right now, today. The most important change has come from INSIDE me. I don't expect a signed confession anymore!  I know what's up. I've changed, she won't...we go from there.

Based on this knowledge I KNOW I am entitled to be treated well and the way I behave shows this. My new behavior (it's subtle but it's real - just me keeping my feet firmly planted) has an affect on her. She stops short now.

2. I keep my boundaries in good repair and am AWARE when they are breached. THis awareness alone really seems to help. The arrow doesn't have to go in anymore.  I stop it with the knowledge that she is sick.

3. I may or may not respond to  the breach but I will know when it's happened and won't let the toxic waste flow out of her dump and into my field of ...well how about.... flowers. I built some diversion trenches - let that toxic stuff flow away.

4. I know that I can still be intact even if she is off her rocker- disengage, disengage, disengage, detach, detach, detach.

I saw my mother 2 days ago. She said some things (GRRR) I said to myself -oh, that's THAT strategy she's using. RIght now I can learn from this situation and use it to repair some of the old damage.

5. Don't engage. If you must, keep I short. I learned this from someone on  the covert incest board. "The 10 second confrontation rule." For example you could say: "Don't dismiss my feelings like that" (please) then move on, don't stay on it otherwise you'll be battling. 10 seconds, 10 words - short and not too sweet.

6. Be in control. My mother at 91 can out do me any day but if I don't take the bait, don't engage, I can do this.  We may be in separate universes but we are getting through it!

7. Follow through is key! (from covert incest board) decide before hand what consitutes too much and decide what you will do about it.  Practise it.

On the way to my mother's this week I practised - ''I don't feel that way. 'That's not how I see it.' 'We have different opinions about that'. 'Let's talk about something else now''. Let's drop it.'

If you do decide to visit - would it be better done the first time without your children.  Anyway Flower,  this stuff is so bloody hard. give yourself a break no matter what!!

Is it worth it - I don't know. It's just a management technique and I am just beginning.

Hope there is something in there that helps.

Les

[Lizbeth]

Flower, you go girl, you are awesome.  You displayed such patience with your father. despite his not believing what you had to say.  At least you got him to listen to you.  My father won't even let me talk to him about anything "uncomfortable" about my childhood.

 It might not get you very far, but at least you have the satisfaction of knowing you did what you could.  

Lizbeth

[Nic]

Dear Flower,
boy can I ever relate to your post!!! I'm laughing hysterically because you and i have an identical situation..an oblivious Dad who is only willing to believe and see what he wants to see and an N mom who is manipulative and totally N.  Without going into details, and I have to agree with bunny here..our dads have been brainwashed by our N moms.
Flower, i've been to hell and back with my parents and it has not been in vain.
Flower, I think i'm further down the line than you as far as this is concerned.  It is very exact to say that nothing, not even you can change or will ever change your parents.   They have an agreement, a private world of their own, a very fusional relationship which you cannot change, they are joined together, albeit dysfunctionally, at the hip.  You will always be the child..you will most likely never have complete personhood with your parents.
Like you, i've beaten my head against multiple walls to try and make the other one believe me..always to no avail.  My parents believe they will die at the exact same time and date for God's sake!  How unrealistic is that? But they really believe it..they have their common set of beliefs and ways of acting,, including a life plan for me which I know nothing about and in which i've been caught up more times than I wish to know about.
Like your dad, my dad always ran errands for my mom..always did her business...he was the mouthpiece for her threats etc.  She was the QUEEN and he was the castrated King.  Their relationship has been, is  and always will be impenetrable.  I think that's GREAT!!!!!!!!
There it is staring us in the face Flower..we're FREEEE...this impenetrableness lets us off the hook.
In a cookey way, we have to accept the role they've given us.  We are appendages.  Once you shed the shame and hurt of never having been heard by them ( voicelessness) you can begin to disengage from them.  Personally, i've given up my no.1 job which was thinking/caring/doing/prioritizing their needs before mine.  I somehow brainwashed myself into believing I was heard by them only to realize it was by fluke or because it had been convenient for them to have pseudo heard me..Do you grasp that? I'm not sure if i'm explaining it well enough.
I also know, now more than ever that my parents DO love me..in their own way of course..and i've learned to accept that.  i take what they are willing to give me as far as love and attention are concerned, but it's so much easier now since i've become aware of how they operate and since I've accepted their way of doing things and stopped fighting it.
I've made some rules which are my own, i didn't share any of those boundaries with them..i implement what I need for me as the need arises.
For instance, i've reconnnected with them after a lengthy and horrible nightmarish battle with them.  I've said what I needed to say without becoming accusatory toward them ( 'cos you know the truth always floats to the top sooner or later).  My 80 year old mother emails me and I email back..we do telephone one another too...way less often than before.  I never ask them for anything, especially money ( very important to clean that area up..gifts are ok but not projects) .  N mother wanted my partner and I to spend some time with them this weekend.  She wanted us to go to their flat where she would have cooked up something...I wasn't into that and invited her/them to a restaurant instead..my partner wanted this restaurant in the first place.  So she asked me to let her know what all would happen " in good time" so She could get organized.
i gave her 24hours...telephoned this morning and confirmed that we are all going to the restaurant and not their place.  All polite, all smiles with a stopover at the pet store to pick up some fish for our acquarium.
No more games, no more endless thank yous, no more sitting there and watching them run the show..watching them watch me run the program they so meticulously installed all those years ago.
Voicelessness..HA! no more!  I've since discovered how at least 80% of communication is non verbal..it's amazing!
more later!
Nic..

[Anonymous]

Hi  bunny, les, Lizbeth, and Nic!
Your  perspectives are valuable to me and your words are encouraging. You were all helpful.

bunny - Thanks for sharing about your dad. It was helpful. It is nightmarish for my dad to be so blind.

les - Thanks very much for your observations! Also, if I ever get in the position of care taking my parents I can refer to your advise. Thanks for being there.

Lizbeth - Your words did my heart good. Nice to meet you!

Nic - Nice to meet you too. It looks like our parents use the same play book. Kind of eerie. Maybe we are distant relatives.    It sounds like you've got them figured out and are on top of things. Thanks for your perspective and support.

I'm fried... My daughter's calm we'd been cultivating for her healing was disrupted by my dad's visit. She is so reactive to the stress they cause. We try to shield her from them but it is hard when someone is banging on the house. I guess basically I'm through with my mom for the sake of my children and my own sanity... what's left of it.    If my dad continues being my mom's mouthpiece, he won't be welcome here at our house.  My son doesn't respect his grandfather anymore because grandpa doesn't believe us about grandma. It should be obvious to grandpa what she is... but as Nic says

They have an agreement, a private world of their own, a very fusional relationship which you cannot change, they are joined together, albeit dysfunctionally, at the hip. You will always be the child..you will most likely never have complete personhood with your parents.

 Well said Nic!         And thanks the rest of you for your words that help bring clarity:

and as bunny says:

He's pretty weak in the mental department (and yes I think he is brainwashed). You did your best and you can be content with that effort.  There's going to be no change in these people whatsoever.

and

  as Lizbeth says:

at least you have the satisfaction of knowing you did what you could.

and as les says

It is, I believe, completely beyond an N to do this - to admit wrong doing.

[Michelle]

Getting past things is defined as me stopping the standoff between my mom and I.

Flower - what a huge accomplishment already that you know that tidbit of knowledge!  Good for you!

I agree with Bunny though - that is really freaky that he just sat outside and waited for you to open up!  

It's really sad that he can't fully see your side.  But like Les said, he is pretty much stuck with her - listening to her groan and complain all day every day.  She has him trained to be the way she wants him to be and he is just in survival mode.  That doesn't excuse his actions, but it certainly does help you to understand them a little more, eh?  

The last time my dad hugged me was when I was a toddler I guess because I never remember him giving me a hug the whole time I was growing up.

I'm so sorry and saddened to hear that Flower.   I hope you are filling your hug quota through your friends and immediate family!

My counselor told me something once that I think applies here.  Healthy people are not usually attracted to unhealthy people.  I don't know your dad, but maybe he had a few of his own issues left unresolved even before he met your mom?????  Maybe some of his needs are met by her, in a weird kinda way???  Just thinking out loud.

Lots of hugs and support for you.  Sorry this post is late - I've been wandering in and out this summer, staying busy with the kiddos.  

Big hugs to you,
Michelle