self-centred husband of 20 years

[Clara]

I hope someone can help me sort out my feelings. My husband and I have entered therapy a short while ago and I am feeling worse than ever about my marriage.

I recognize tht my husband has a good case of NPD.  He is self-absorbed, brags, laughs at his own jokes, has little capacity for empathy, thinks he is smarter than anyone else, and will defend his ego to the point of using verbal intimidation and lies.

When we met, I was very young and vulnerable, low on the self-esteem totem pole. I had escaped a toxic, hostile famliy and considered myself lucky to have met someone with a good head on his shoulders, smart, and reliable.

Problems started short;y after we married, but I assumed that all the fighting was my fault, and that I deserved what I got from him. So invariably, the next day, I would be kind to him because I felt the fights were my fault.

I am realizing that I was greatly at fault over the first years, but I have worked very hard to improve myself. I can now make (and keep!) friends, and have proven myself at work and in other settings.  In short, I think that I have grown whereas he hasn't.

Would I ever be attracted to someone like him now? Absolutely not.  

Could I leave him now?  That's the problem. Three kids (two are teens) and the fear of making a BIG mistake plague me constantly.

So we are in therapy, but all he does is lie and make me feel worse. Shows no concern for my feelings in this lousy relationship.

On the other hand, I feel that he has a right to "attack" me like that in therapy, because I am exposing his vulnerabilites -- for example I tell the therapist that I have the feeling that my husband doesn't really care about my feelings, etc.

Adding to confusion, I notice that he isn't ALWAYS a monster. He can give me good advice about work (when he is in the mood) and he is a reliable husband and father. No affairs, abuse, etc.  In other words, no good clear-cut reason to break away (I wish there was!!)

I guess my problem is that I am becoming consumed with my strong feelings against him, and also with guilt for these feelings since he is not always a monster.

When he is away on travel I don't miss him.  And I think of how awful it would be if we died and were buried next to each other.  But then I wonder, is it me? How awful does someone have to be to justify leaving a marriage with kids?  And if he has such intense insecurities, is that his fault?  I can see how his hostile and rejecting fther played a role in hs prblems, so I feel sorry for him in that respect.   I also know when I have set him off with his attacks on me -- i.e., he doesn't just attack me out of the blue, it's usually something that I have said that has agravated him.

I feel absolutely locked, or trapped. If I stay I am worried that I am wasting myself on him. If I leave I am worried that I may become lonely and regret it.

Any thoughts to help me sort this out?

[rosencrantz]

Hi Clara - Hugs to you!

I deserved what I got from him

it's usually something that I have said that has agravated him.

I feel that he has a right to "attack" me like that in therapy because

,

Aaargh!  No, no, no, no, no!!!!!    

Do you feel any differently when you see those phrases highlighted??

Have a read of Controlling People by Patricia Evans - you'll never say any of those words ever again.

I am exposing his vulnerabilites...

What you describe is not exposing his vulnerability - it is perhaps exposing your own.  It's exposing your needs and your feelings.  It is exposing the truth, your truth. It may be exposing him as an uncaring husband but that's up to him to demonstrate you are wrong by CARING not by attacking or lying...(he's just proving you're right if he attacks you!!!)

he isn't ALWAYS a monster

Does that mean it's OK if he's a monster just most of the time?  

Some things will always be worse than the status quo if you make changes - but then, some things will also be better.  I'd suggest just working on working out the truth of your relationship and building your self-esteem.  I'm sure that you'll know what the right answer is when the time is right.  

Hugs
R

[Anna]

Hi Clara,
Welcome to my world -- my self-centered husband and I will celebrate our 25th on Tuesday.  

As much as I hate seeing it and saying it, this man is almost a complete replica of my mother.  I went from her house to his house and nothing changed for me except location.  Over the years, I continued to lose my self.  So I understand and empathize with all you say in your post.

Are there different "degrees" of N?  Isn't the most telling sign the part of having no remorse?  I always knew there was a 'problem' (and denied it of course) and even recently have been reluctant to identify my husband as a N because   at the end of every "episode" he will hang his head and apologize.  Of course, he doesn't really mean this, it's just part of the cycle.  Being sorry has an inherent meaning that the behavior will change because it's causing pain for someone else.  But no.  The behavior stays the same and I end up saying the same types of things as you wrote:  "How bad is it?"  "But he's a good provider for me and the children"....I have a million excuses??? but I think I feel ADDICTED to him and that's called codependency.  I am working very very hard to change this.  

This is my reality for the week --
He CANNOT understand why it is WRONG WRONG WRONG not to acknowledge me on my birthday.  For him to walk past me and ignore me, not even look at me, not even say Happy Birthday killed a large part of me, my recovery, my marriage.....  my mother's MO was the silent treatment.  When my Husband ignores me....... I get so enraged that I can cause physical harm.    It's my trigger and he knows that and does it anyway.   And I have attacked him for it.  Not proud of that.  But it's true.  This is the crisis that drove us into therapy actually.  I couldn't live with myself and that rage.  Even yesterday I berated him.  I felt sick afterward.  

I apologize if this is disjointed or rambling, but I still grapple with this issue every day it seems because I go back to the same man who hurts me to be comforted...................arggggggggggggggggggggggggggggh.  So afraid to be alone.  Are you afraid Clara?   It's a long hard process to sort out and find what's healthy.    Keep writing maybe we can find sanity togther.  
  (((((((((((((((((((hugs to us all today))))))))))))))))))))

[Pat]

Dear Clara,

I just finished reading your post about your marriage and therapy.  I could feel the pain and confusion and hope that you're finding the support you need.  My reality check has always been, "if it quacks, it's a duck".  The reason I need to use this for myself is that I spend so much time denying that the quacking is a duck!  If you're hurt and the person who hurt you either won't acknowledge it or blames your feelings on your misunderstanding their intention- you're not acknowleding the duck.  In this case, the abuse or neglect or whatever form it takes.  As a product of narcissistic parenting we have learned to NEVER honor our own feelings because it may inconvienience or make the perpetrator uncomfortable.  So, as a coping mechanism we assume that everything is our fault and then spend the rest of our lives trying to correct these phantom errors.

If you don't like him much that is probably the reaction he has earned based on his behaviour.  If you're not having fun with him and feeling nurtured by the relationship (quacking) then that's the duck.  The relationship is what it is.  

Let's assume that the relationship does not give you what you need and in fact, life might be better without him.  Does that mean that you have to pack your bags and leave? No.  You first begin the process of understanding what you need and how to begin getting it.  This is such a good place to start (this message board) because becoming empowered enough to insist that our needs be met is a long and difficult process (I know from much experience) and there are many false starts and set backs.  

In my experience one first has to get an idea of what it is you need and who you are without putting everyone with lungs and legs first.  Then getting the strength and support to ask for what you need and then slowly building the strength to not get derailed every time someone says, "no, I don't want to give you that".

I wish you all the best and hope you stay connected with this group.

[Cathi]

Hi Clara:
I'm sorry you're having such a rough time. Hopefully, you'll get the support you need in this group to sort things out. I was married for 16 years when I felt as you do now. EVERYONE but me could see the handwriting on the wall. Silly me, I got divorced and let the N back into my life after several months thinking he had changed! He changed just until I let him come  back home! He was with me for five more years. Geez, was I a glutton for punishment!

I also left a Nmom---right from the frying pan into the fire! Anyway, I met and married a wonderful man a little over a year ago. His family is so loving and normal. I am grateful to be so fortunate. The down side is that my three sons feel sorry for their Dad. The man doesn't like to work. He's such a poor role model. I was warned in counseling to leave him when the boys were very young for just that reason. Sad, but true, they are turning out to be carbon copies, and it makes my heart ache! I guess drinking and doing drugs with their Dad is more appealing than life with a mother who expects more from them because they deserve it.

I am happy for myself that I no longer have to deal with all the abuse. However, recovery is a long bumpy road--NOT for cowards! Good luck to you as you decide what to do. Just don't expect it to be easy.
Hugs,
Cathi[/b]

[mary]

I have been married 33 years.  I have known my relationship was weird and especially hard to keep going.  I have had the fear most of my marriage of being abandond.  Some times were wonderful but there has been so much sadness and meaness.  I have blamed myself for some that has happened like you.   I have confronted him at times and that has lead to him getting even with me big time.  Two of my children have suffered deep terrible depression and only in the last few months have we come to understand that much of their problems come from a N Dad.  I have been feelings such hate for myself that I did not realize what was happening with my kids self estem.  The things that hurt me I did not realize were also hurting my kids.  I livedin a type of fantasy land thinking all these years that things would get better.  At least I have stopped hating myself so much.  I am still here with N husband.  I really don't want to leave him.  I am trying to figure out how to live with him and be a real "ME" too.  The therapist says I must find a voice and stand up....not so easy to say the least

Funny you mentioned Birthday.  He doesn't recognize my birthday anymore and for Mothers day he went out with the kids on Sat evening (they wanted to go) and in secret bought me flowers and a gift.   Sunday morning I got up and no one said anything.... We took N MIL out for Mothers day lunch and no one said a thing to me.  I convinced myself that that was ok and I would be fine.  11pm on Mothers Day out come the flowers and gift.   To me it was my husband doing what was expected of him but just showing me how unimportant I really I am to him.  I asked my kids the next day why they waited until the day was over to recognize Mothers Day and they said that Dad just kept putting it off.  

    I told my husband that I did not think it was very nice of him to do that and he got all bent out of shape about how he had gone out of his way to do this nice thing for me and then he still gets into trouble.     It is hard to live with an N husband and I guess one just cant have any expectations at all.

[Karin]

Clara, I could've written what you wrote, only I'm a little further down the road than you. Married at 19 to a caring, educated, kind, gentle etc. etc. man who turned into what I now know to be a narcissist. Three (now 26,24 & 19) wonderful children and to cut a long story short, after 25 years of marriage I discovered he'd been going to prostitutes. Another 2 years of counsellors and I realised that it was hopeless and the divorce is now being organised. I am really fed up with trying to analyze what happened though I know it is also neccessary in order to heal the wounds. I know some things for certain;
-N's never change
-counsellors don't work
-nobody other than those directly involved (spouses and children) understand (others just don't understand, however well meaning)
-children have it harder than spouses
I know also (most importantly) that I have to totally disregard anything he does and turn my back on him purely for my own sanity. The only communication at the moment is through the lawyer.
I still have a way to go but it'll be OK.

[clara]

Thank you all for your caring replies. I feel like I have found a safe place to share the truth about my husband -- a truth that I have been hiding from friends and family for a long time.

Yes, my parents were highly narcissistic, and still are. Their cruelty and manipulative abilitites are quite something -- especially my father. Want to hear a sad piece of irony? My husband and my father are great friends!! And they seem to be the only ones who can stand spending time with each other. That has always hurt me, that H would give so much of his time and himself to my father, who is so mean and rejecting with me.  When I mentioned it to H a few years ago, his reply was "I can't believe that you are so mean that you would try to tell your HUSBAND to stop being NICE to your own FATHER!! How many people would DO SOMETHING like that?!" Hey, put it that way and I did feel guilty and "realized"  that it was indeed my hang-up.  One day a friend told me that she didn't blame me one bit for being angry and feeling betrayed by my husband's friendship with my dad.  I could have cried out of relief that I wasn't wrong on this one, and that someone understood.

I was getting worried about therapy because of how my H gets away with treating me in the sessions (we've only had two so far).  But therapist has been pointing out that a concern of mine in the relationship is that I am not heard in this relationship, that I don't have a voice. These were his words, not mine, but once again I could have cried with that "Oh, my God it's not me" feeling!  I think it's because of this term (voicelessness) that I came straight to this forum when I did a googloe search for narcissism!!

Will just share another little flash of insight I just got yesterday:  As I posted, H and I  only get along when we are talking about work.  But guess what? That is because he clearly has the upper hand on experience and knowledge.  In other words, the rules of our relationship are that we get along well if I just talk to him about the one area that I truly feel he can help me with.

As I am coming to realize, there is a very narrow "band width" for getting along in this relationship.

On the other hand, he doesn't go to prostitutes, doesn't drink or do drugs, and doesn't forget my birthday -- so no big reason to jump ship.

Yes, I realize that I will NEVER get a true friendship out of the marriage. Fortunately I do have friends outside of the marriage.

I think what hurts me the most is when I meet caring, empathic men who really do like me for who I am.  They are married, of course, and the issue isn't me wanting them. It's just that I realize that if I knew what I know now about relationships, I could have done so much better for myself those many years ago (we met when I was just 19l). But i guess life is full of regrets and what if's...

Another little insight:  He keeps telling me that I am so controlling and judgemental, and gives examples from years ago. Yes, I have come to terms with that long ago, and have lived with the guilt of copying my harping, hen-pecking mother. But I have changed!! I realized long ago how awful it is to be like that, and I have told him that.   But I also feel that he could have owned up to his role in the problem to -- i.e., I tended to get harpy because my neeeds weren't met in the relationship.

One more piece of insight: Our kids practically never tell their dad anyting -- even when we are all sitting at the table together, or all together in the van.  They simply ignore him, and talk to me. Hey, from the mouths of babes. Thanks to our kids I am now realizing that maybe he is not the GREAT PARENT he makes himself out to be.  And maybe I am NOT the mean controlling mother he accuses me of ( enforce rules; he doesn't). In fact, my kids and I have great relationships -- especially when H is out of town.

Off to the bookstore to buy Patricia Evans' book, Controlling People.
Kind of worried though: Do I tell him the book is to understand him better? Or should I play it safe and just say that I am reading it to undersatnd myself. Because I guess we all know how ugly a N gets when they are threatened....

Thanks again to you all.

[clara]

Thank you all for your caring replies. I feel like I have found a safe place to share the truth about my husband -- a truth that I have been hiding from friends and family for a long time.

Yes, my parents were highly narcissistic, and still are. Their cruelty and manipulative abilitites are quite something -- especially my father. Want to hear a sad piece of irony? My husband and my father are great friends!! And they seem to be the only ones who can stand spending time with each other. That has always hurt me, that H would give so much of his time and himself to my father, who is so mean and rejecting with me.  When I mentioned it to H a few years ago, his reply was "I can't believe that you are so mean that you would try to tell your HUSBAND to stop being NICE to your own FATHER!! How many people would DO SOMETHING like that?!" Hey, put it that way and I did feel guilty and "realized"  that it was indeed my hang-up.  One day a friend told me that she didn't blame me one bit for being angry and feeling betrayed by my husband's friendship with my dad.  I could have cried out of relief that I wasn't wrong on this one, and that someone understood.

I was getting worried about therapy because of how my H gets away with treating me in the sessions (we've only had two so far).  But therapist has been pointing out that a concern of mine in the relationship is that I am not heard in this relationship, that I don't have a voice. These were his words, not mine, but once again I could have cried with that "Oh, my God it's not me" feeling!  I think it's because of this term (voicelessness) that I came straight to this forum when I did a googloe search for narcissism!!

Will just share another little flash of insight I just got yesterday:  As I posted, H and I  only get along when we are talking about work.  But guess what? That is because he clearly has the upper hand on experience and knowledge.  In other words, the rules of our relationship are that we get along well if I just talk to him about the one area that I truly feel he can help me with.

As I am coming to realize, there is a very narrow "band width" for getting along in this relationship.

On the other hand, he doesn't go to prostitutes, doesn't drink or do drugs, and doesn't forget my birthday -- so no big reason to jump ship.

Yes, I realize that I will NEVER get a true friendship out of the marriage. Fortunately I do have friends outside of the marriage.

I think what hurts me the most is when I meet caring, empathic men who really do like me for who I am.  They are married, of course, and the issue isn't me wanting them. It's just that I realize that if I knew what I know now about relationships, I could have done so much better for myself those many years ago (we met when I was just 19l). But i guess life is full of regrets and what if's...

Another little insight:  He keeps telling me that I am so controlling and judgemental, and gives examples from years ago. Yes, I have come to terms with that long ago, and have lived with the guilt of copying my harping, hen-pecking mother. But I have changed!! I realized long ago how awful it is to be like that, and I have told him that.   But I also feel that he could have owned up to his role in the problem to -- i.e., I tended to get harpy because my neeeds weren't met in the relationship.

One more piece of insight: Our kids practically never tell their dad anyting -- even when we are all sitting at the table together, or all together in the van.  They simply ignore him, and talk to me. Hey, from the mouths of babes. Thanks to our kids I am now realizing that maybe he is not the GREAT PARENT he makes himself out to be.  And maybe I am NOT the mean controlling mother he accuses me of ( enforce rules; he doesn't). In fact, my kids and I have great relationships -- especially when H is out of town.

Off to the bookstore to buy Patricia Evans' book, Controlling People.
Kind of worried though: Do I tell him the book is to understand him better? Or should I play it safe and just say that I am reading it to undersatnd myself. Because I guess we all know how ugly a N gets when they are threatened....

Thanks again to you all.

[Anna]

Clara,
My friend/neighbor definitely places her books in a "secure" hiding place to avoid the wrath of her Nhusband.  

Just FYI...

[Anna]

Are there different "degrees" of N?  Isn't the most telling sign the part of having no remorse?  I always knew there was a 'problem' (and denied it of course) and even recently have been reluctant to identify my husband as a N because   at the end of every "episode" he will hang his head and apologize.

I'm very excited to answer my own question here!! LOLOL  This is the first time that I have seen this in print!  

"N spouses, perhaps out of guilt and feelings of specialness, will either give too much of themselves or take too much.  At either end of the spectrum, they may become too authoritarian or too controlling, TOO MEEK or TOO MELLOW........  The therapist might say..."before you felt entitled to everything, but now, because of your guilt, you feel entitled to nothing."

And that sums up my husband!!!!!!!!!!!!  He easily "fits" with so many other N qualities, but this meek & mellow concept puts the missing puzzle piece in to complete the picture.   ahhhh knowledge..... Just wanted to share because it was so significant a find for me.   Hope it helps someone else....