Bi-sexuality

[Onyx]

Well it's official! According to the 'Daily Mirror' newspaper here in the UK, a third of women who club it are bi-sexual!! Having carried out extensive research......(yeah right....lol), the Mirror is gushing the news with banner headlines and personal interviews with the gals.

Now I'd kind of gotten the message that being a little Bi and owning a Gucci handbag were pretty much one and the same thing these days! A definate 'must have' on a girls fashionable CV, but I hadn't figured on the shear percentage number involved! Of course the Mirror is a rag....a tabloid...but it's not the worst! So there probably is a degree of truth in what they spout....right?

Programmes such as 'Sex and the City' had re-inforced the evolution of women in today's world. You know, the kind of ballsy girl who downs pints like the best of them and hunts in packs in the clubs on a Saturday night. I've always had the impression that the feminist brigade are major script writers for these type of shows. On the one hand preaching 'Death to all Men', whilst on the other insisting women behave in exactly the same manner as the feminists have condemed men for! Laugh a minute stuff!

Anyway, the Mirror's findings have got me thinking. Sure they may be way out, but what if they're not? What if secretly or subconsciously, a women really deep down doesn't want to be in relationship with her man but feels obliged by convention to do so? What if she's a 'closet' bi-sexual girl who is having to hide or suppress her needs or desires? What if she's actually lesbian, but could never face that fact? What if her biological needs, her hormones, are keeping her trapped in a relationship if for no other reasons than children? What if she really doesn't have a clue who she really is because of it? God the questions are abounding in my head.....what if.....!

In such circumstances, wouldn't the relationship or marriage that this girl was in be experiencing difficulties? Wouldn't it be at least slightly more difficult for their partner to understand them? Wouldn't disagreements tend to be more frequent? Wouldn't fear of exposure or denial haunt the relationship? Wouldn't things be just a little more awkward? I wonder how many women over the years have been trapped in this situation desperate to get out, whilst morally feeling wrong for doing because society said so?

Could it be that a degree of arguments between men and women in relationships mask a sexual issue and that women confuse this? I wonder how many relationships have broken down into desperate fighting, but for reasons consciously unknown to both parties! On the surface the issues have been this or that, but deep down and very different reasons, his frustration levels are rising boardering on anger? I wonder how many frustrated spouses there must be as a result of all this. How many angry people are there who either don't know what's really going on or on the other hand, are supressing it!

I know that if i was married and either secretly homosexual or subsconsciously so, my relationship with my woman would be strained to say the least! Open to conflict, disagreement and disrespect; I would expect this at the very least! I would be engendering so much anger as a result of my supressed feeling towards my partner. I would probably driving her crazy in the confussion of it all! I would be creating anger and pain in another that loves me, but can't figure out what's going on!

Could the above shed a little more light on why couples inflict mental cruelty on each other? Could this partly explain why one partner behaves so badly to the other? Could this in part be the reason why we can't understand our partner?

It kinda gets one thinking!

[Anonymous]

Onyx,

I seriously doubt that most women are bisexual. I also seriously doubt that repressed bisexuality is the cause of most marital problems.

If you've had relationships with bisexual women, it is probably due to ignoring their general instability. Instability can be manifested as sexual promiscuity with one or both sexes.

And yes, there may be a fad for young women to 'experiment' with other women but this is not the same as true bisexuality.

bunny

[Nic]

Hello Onyx,
Certainly people are more complex than sexuality which is also a very complex issue.
I have been on both sides of the fence and am confirmed Gay at this stage of the game.  It was complicated enough to teetter-totter between the two.  I would agree that experiencing both sides if one is inclined is acceptable if not necessary, however, we are people first before we are staight, gay or bi-..I opt for fidelity and committment and ultimately INTIMACY in a relationship.
I think the whole idea of commercializing sex is wrong and is the product of a bored and spoiled post-modern society that is looking out rather than looking in.  One need only look at the fall of the Roman Empire as an example of this.
I can confirm one thing though, either straight, gay or bi, everyone's wish, secret or not, is to be loved,treasured and nurtured by that one very special person.  We all must keep this universal ideal alive in my opinion, lest we find ourselves alone and lonely.  WE must take the risk of growing up, owning up to that very basic need to be loved.
Percentage, schmercentage I say..
The cause of marital problems? maybe and sometimes. Cruelty? I don't think so especially if you're in a mature setting where people don't play games.
Bi sexualtiy as a Mega-trend..well for sure, the idea came from a tabloid! It's a suggestion to the public that this is the sexuality du jour..easier than personalizing your own relationship..mass hysteria like.
Interesting topic though,
nice to meet you Onyx, all the best
Nic

[Onyx]

Well written Nic, it's good to have your view on the subject as it gives balance to the thought.

Sex and sexual identity issues have been probably with since time began. And on the subject of the Romans, there's some fine example of sexual....erm......issues. I've always loved the story of jow Caligula (think I've spelled is correctly) used to be even handed to with both sexs, especially the story of the marrying couple!

We live in times of sexual bombardment. Never before has sooooo much sex being thrusted at us. Mags and newspaper aside, TV has gone wild giving us our daily dose of voyeurism! Even the advertisements spout sex to sell! It's bloody amazing how far and fast things are changing. We're being programmed by the guys in grey as to how to live our lives!

It's up to the individual to decide what best suits them when it comes to who they really are. After all, you have to live at ease in your own shoes. But the issues concerning 'coming out' when you're actually in a relationship with a person or the opposite sex must be hellish for both concerned! The unhappyness must know no bounds until the truth is out! Whether gay or lesbian, it must be one hell of a struggle in such situatoins. Mind bending stuff for the people involved!

It's the 'Gucci Handbag' fashion conscious types; the trendy BI's that I refer to in my posting. If what the Mirror is peddling is in the 'Ball Park' of being correct, it's staggering. In a relationship, one was aware of another male taking an interest in one's girlfriend. Now you have to pay more attention to her girlfriends ! It's sooo bizarre! It's bad enough having to work hard on you relationship/marriage these days. But it soooo much harder these days due to the shear scale of influence outside forces have upon it!

I'm feeling old these days, very old! I feel as if I'm turning into a dinosaur, age is catching up with me...and fast! I really pity how our children are being so Brainwashed by the media boys and girls. I actually do feel angry at what they're being denied! It's moved way beyond looking good and saying the right things in order to be noticed. So Narcissistic is modern day life becoming, it's getting harder to define the differences!

I wonder if it's a good or bad thing? I wonder what the consequences will be in say...20 years time!

Onyx

[Anonymous]

Nic said:

I think the whole idea of commercializing sex is wrong and is the product of a bored and spoiled post-modern society that is looking out rather than looking in. One need only look at the fall of the Roman Empire as an example of this.

Big agreement Nic. How decadent we seem.

Onyx said:

Could the above shed a little more light on why couples inflict mental cruelty on each other? Could this partly explain why one partner behaves so badly to the other? Could this in part be the reason why we can't understand our partner?

Hi Onyx, I think couples inflict mental cruelty on each other because they both *choose* to stay in the relationship. But people often stay together because they’re very afraid of being alone and having to face their ‘demons’ on their own. They look for a partner not because they’re interested in that person, but because they think they *get something* from them – someone to shout at, someone to bully, someone they think is inferior who they can criticise to make them feel good…the list goes on.

One partner may behave badly towards another because they’re not looking for a grown-up relationship. The badly behaved partner is looking for someone to perhaps mistreat as they themselves have been mistreated in the past. And the ‘good’ partner who stays? Thinks the only way they can survive is when they are being mistreated. People are like this, you know, they really are. This is why abused woman stay “because he loves me really”. They can genuinely believe that being hit etc is a sign of love.

Some of the time I think we can’t understand our partners because they don’t understand themselves. Or we don’t understand ourselves!

What if she really doesn't have a clue who she really is because of it?

Whether I had sex with a man or a woman, it wouldn’t determine who I am. Who I am is about a lot more than sexual preference. Like political, religious, moral views for example. Or being extrovert/introvert. Or being kind to people or cruel to them. If I have sex with myself does that make me gay? You know how Eddie Izzard labels his sexuality? – he says he’s a male lesbian which I guess comes as close as possible to how he sees his sexuality!

Onyx….please stop reading the Mirror, it’ll rot your brain! Just like watching Big Brother rots the brain: it actually eats brain cells,  I read that in The Sun.

Stay away from the Gucci gals is the answer. I do. I hate fashion, always have done. Now I’m like a social outcast. I don’t go for material ‘stuff’. I’m so glad the Americans don’t know who Posh and Becks are!

The media have been brainwashing us in the West since the 50s. They’ve perfected it. Now they’re conquering the rest of the world. Glamour models in bars in India giving away free ciggies. Everyone wants the ‘American dream’. And so on. Ya gotta live your own life at some point and not give a toss what other people think about you, haven’t you? P

[Anonymous]

I'm feeling old these days, very old! I feel as if I'm turning into a dinosaur, age is catching up with me..and fast!

Whoah! Mid life crazies! Bet you want a Ferrari too? In red? And a blonde bimbette to go in it?

Onyx: you are not old! Haven't you heard, 60 - yes 60 - is the new 40. So you've got to get to 60 before you start sounding like an old codger. You're not allowed to do that in your 40s.

People tell me I don't look my age. I wonder why. Maybe it's because I hardly ever think 'I'm 42'. When folk ask me, I have to think, er...how old? Young lad selling something on the step caught me with wet hair. "Just washed yer hair?" he said. "Er, yeah." "You goin owt tonite then?" I felt like grabbing him by the scruff of his neck and saying - do you know how old I am young fellow? Old enough to be your mother. Hey! Maybe he realised that and likes older ladies eh...?

[Onyx]

Yeah very funny! I'm now one the those guys who I used to laugh at when I was 20    Life catch's you out....and I mean that in a funny way!

Perhaps I haven't explained myself. Relationships are this, that...good, bad....yeah and we've all been 'their'.....well most of us anyway! The point I'm really trying to make is this. Girl meets boy and the usual knock about stuff develops. You know, I'm talking about what used to happen and still does today. You meet, you live together, you marry....or not! You succed, you don't....whatever. Problems between men and women have existed for years and I'm not going to go over old ground.

It's just that in addition to all the above, today adds so much additional choice and temptation. Years ago, men mainly cheated on women...nothing new there! And yes, women have caught up with that game too! So many of us (me not included) are getting our jollies all over the place like never before....it's kind of like an occupational hazard these days! Sure men and women bicker, argue, fight and fall out....it's a national sport these days....in the UK anyway!

But it's the added dimensions through having to figure out if you man for instance, is going to cheat on you with say Sarah, or if it's going to be a case of 'Adam and Steve'! Now it would appear....and I know it's probably BS (for our American mates), but the being Bi rather than being gay, adds a huge amount of issues to relationships these days! And I wonder what additional stress that places upon being in a relationship with someone who secretly is Bi

[Anonymous]

I see what you mean Onyx, but I guess I'd be more shocked if I found out my partner was a fully paid-up member of a white supremacy organisation. Seriously. Him having sex with a bloke I could cope with better than him being a bigoted violent racist. Sex just isn't as important as the media would like us to believe.

[Onyx]

I've finally got it......what I'm trying to say I mean !

Freud, over 100 years ago, basically said that women were surpressing there sexuality (bear with me on this one) and having to conform to society norms. OK OK, he said a lot more too....bit stick with me on this one will you!

At that time, even Oscar Wild, who was as gay as they come, was married! Why...cos he had to conform to what society expected. Society was very heavily controlled by religion....or godly acts. Homosexuality didn't conform with religious beliefs. It's not that more people are gay today, it's just that we live in very liberal times! So much so, a fair degree of people who aren't gay...very much want to be because it's fashionable amongst other things.

Now I believe that there is a direct link between the slow demise of religion and the figures now being pushed by things like the Mirror. I know it sounds far fetched, but imagine, so many people now feeling free to express themselves freely!

The sterotype of marriage was/is religous based....we are married in the eyes of god.......whoppee! But god plays an almost redundant role in a lives today. So now men and women don't in any way (nearly), conform to the rolls assigned to us through religion. So what if we're reverting back to before christian times? What if we've removed the shackles tieing us to debunked ideas? Remember, these very same christian figures used to burn people at the stake for being witches....we all had to conform or else then! Remember the 'Dunk em' chair? If you drown then you're innocent, if you don't then you're burnded at the stake!!!!

So what if today, women are actually evolving further down the road in expressing their option to swing both ways? What if this was the way it was for hundreds of thousands of years and they are returning to type? What if what has caused most distress for females today is there refusal to acknowledge this. They're trying to stay in a male-female type relationship even though this is a fairly modern phenomenom brough on by religion!

Could it be as Freud implied? Could it be that women are not meant to live with men? Could it be that men were used as a security blanket for a number of reasons that are no longer needed by women? Could such huge amounts of mental stress endured by women in relationships with men be caused...because modern day thinking frees them...but they can't accept it?

Just a thought, but Freud had this possible taped years ago.....maybe we should read it all again!

 

[bunny]

Freud, over 100 years ago, basically said that women were surpressing there sexuality (bear with me on this one) and having to conform to society norms. OK OK, he said a lot more too....bit stick with me on this one will you!

This section of Freud's ouevre is very controversial and has led to Freud being discredited in many circles. Initially he said many women had been molested as children. Then he retracted that under pressure and said the women had fantasized the whole thing. So I think you're greatly simplifying what he was talking about.

So much so, a fair degree of people who aren't gay...very much want to be because it's fashionable amongst other things.

I haven't seen this happening anywhere.

So what if today, women are actually evolving further down the road in expressing their option to swing both ways? What if this was the way it was for hundreds of thousands of years and they are returning to type? What if what has caused most distress for females today is there refusal to acknowledge this. They're trying to stay in a male-female type relationship even though this is a fairly modern phenomenom brough on by religion!

Straight women do not have relationships with men all the while longing for a woman. Please. If a woman is bisexual, I would hope she has the integrity to inform any sexual partners about it.

Could it be as Freud implied? Could it be that women are not meant to live with men? Could it be that men were used as a security blanket for a number of reasons that are no longer needed by women? Could such huge amounts of mental stress endured by women in relationships with men be caused...because modern day

Heterosexual women for centuries have loved men. They do not wish they were with women.

bunny

[Onyx]

Bunny

I'm saying this: is it possible that women have been responding over the milleniums, AD, to stereotypes set down by the christian faith. Have they been shackled into a way of behaving as set out in the 'good book' and strangely enough..... by men! It's not just a question of sexuality the more I think about it. It's more to do with choice like you girls never really had before. Who you sleep with, what sex and how many.....these things were so surpressed by society not so many years ago. Not anymore!

I think that there is a direct correlation between the demise of the christian faith and the growth in female freedom to explore over the past 50 years. How many women had, just like Oscar Wilde, to be married even though they knew inside this was wrong for them. How many men and women have had to 'fake it' in a relationship/marriage in order to lead a life free from religious abuse over the centuries?

We appear to be returning to our Pagan ways, although in a more modern sense! Men are driven by the need to have sex, same then as now, no difference! Women have evolved to a point in time were by they do not need a man so much as they used to, except for the obvious! Women way back when had sex more so because they were commanded to or it was necessary for procreation rather than pleasure. They don't have to now, in fact, they can chose like never before, who with and how many!

Marriage was a religious tool. People married in the eyes of Goddo and the church! Now the church is primarilly used for ceremonial reasons only. Things like weddings, christenings and funerals...etc! Women don't have to lie anymore about there feelings. Life today is much more accepting of sexual issues and men are having to adapt...simple as!

Freud was at the very outset of cognitive behaviour therapy. He is allowed to be wrong on points because he was the first. We spend sooo much effort trying to understand why our partner was such a bastard/bitch to us, when maybe what we've been doing with this person is wrong for us, but we can't accept this, let alone see it! Man and women together as set down in the bible and various other doctrines is in time to come, going to be fully debunked...and rightly so!

If we for one moment look for example at the Muslim faith, we are looking at women as they are today, at least 4 centuries ago! Yes the Muslim faith has structure and family values, but how much are women having to bend to the whim of there male driven faiths? It's backward! How many Muslim women are suffering....not because they're lesbian or bi, but because they're having to conform to a faith that stifles their growth and freedoms.  

I was programmed by the Catholic faith as a boy in Ireland. I was brainwashed by these people at the insistance of my mother. She'd been programmed to have as many children as possible, go to church every day, cook, clean, skivy and bonk when required. She didn't have an identity, she just conformed to the norms then! Life is soo different now, no doubt she would have been happier in our time is she was still alive.

Which leads me once again to my points: How many women living today do so at the beheist of others demands/expectations rather than their own! How many women are struggling with how others have been programmed and therefore, what effect these people having on their lives. In staying in a relationship whilst possibly unhappy, aren't we best to accept that the arguments and mental torture is perhaps because we're not free in our own minds to live as we wish!

So what if a girl swings both ways....isn't this probably what happened many many years ago.

Onyx

PS. Although I was in the Navy and locked up with men in submarines for months on end, I never once was confused or doubted who I am    Women are yummy as far as I'm concerned, just best not to live with them 24/7  

[Anonymous]

Which leads me once again to my points: How many women living today do so at the beheist of others demands/expectations rather than their own! How many women are struggling with how others have been programmed and therefore, what effect these people having on their lives. In staying in a relationship whilst possibly unhappy, aren't we best to accept that the arguments and mental torture is perhaps because we're not free in our own minds to live as we wish!

I think both men AND women live according to some earlier programming. I don't think it has much to do with sociological factors. It's about the internal world, the unconscious, which was Freud's revolutionary revelation to the world. If one is in a crappy marriage, it is not because of the Catholic church, paganism, the demise of Christian values or whatever. It's about one's own internal world that hasn't yet been questioned. The unexamined internal world is making the poor choices and denial.


my 2c,

bunny

[Anonymous]

I  am bisexual and transgender and a  feline.
I'm not promiscous at all. In fact my partner and I are pretty asexual,he is Bi too.
All my life I have not been overt sexually.

I like people,I fall in love with who people are in a total way, and could care less which type of plumbing they posess.Giving pleasure together does not require a certain matched or unmatched set of genetalia alone sex is more in the mind than in the body if it is done in love...Love  includes adffectionate  touch,emotional tenderness,exploration ,sharing, and sex it's just one aspect of a relationship among many.

Bi women the ones I have been with  are not drooling  sex hounds.They are Bi and out and the gays are made discomfited that they like men too and the hets tweak because men like to think women need them for something..when it's the males who cannot get over themselves.. but to me the issues about Bi's are  more societies hang ups than problems with Bis themselves .As for the marriage  stuuff women were once raised to get married,onbce married they became male chattel.Ebven her  kids were owned by the "head of the household"(ever why fundies hate gays and get upset over abortion and claim it destroys society? It is because it frees women from  cultural male domination.
It was once totally acceptable  for a husband to disapline a wife with his fists.She could not run to police or do anything against her husband.She was a punching bag,and abuse by males  in a marriage t was seen as normal or even nessary to keep the woman chaste,dutiful and obedient..It was seen as a male duty to keep the household under his control.
The origin of marriage is a legacy  of bondage and abuse.Family the word itself once meant a band of slaves.I myself think marriage is crazy.A relationship can be long term and committed but the idea of the state sanctioning a relationship is a little intrusiuve and sick it smacks of eugenics.Marriage carries societies baggage into a relationship along with  the past of female bondage, domination, patriarchy and slavery.
I found when I divorced my husband(for financial reasons) Our ability to relate to each other as equal partners  improved. We are still very close we just are not bound by a law or by a belief in a destructive  social fantasy imposed upon people from and early age  that is painted up as benign that benifiets the interests of control freak men and rich people who get off on egineering culture more than it helps poor people empower themselves and thier communities..

[phoenix]

bye

[Nic]

Hi Onyx and all!
Interesting to see such a variety of opinions and comments on sexuality.  I once saw an older woman rant how "sex is the elixir of life!"..it's obviously very central to everyone in one way or another as evidenced by the posts here.
Onyx, I find it amusing how you had to point out you were in the navy and bunked with men all the time and that you never questionned yourself about your identity.  Amusing because it's so supremely hetero! almost as if you just had to say it because maybe we could have gotten the impression that you were thinking homo! *laughing nicely*
Listen, whether man or woman, it is very well documented how we all have homo dreams or thoughts..and really that's healthy.  One could say closet healthy.
I sure wish I knew then what I know now...cultural and religious teaching/socialization play on us for years before we act on what we're afraid of.  At least that's how it was for me.  In a dysfunctional family and dare I say in a "proper" family where sex is/was never discussed ( other than via someone elses' joke! ) it's often difficult to feel comfortable with something so personal.
And sex is a very private thing isn't it?  But as it has moved more and more into the public realm, there has been an invasion of the personal sphere where desire has become need, where love and lust have drifted apart into two very specific variables, one alienated from the other.  No doubt causing a rift and ultimately confusion.
The word perversion comes to mind..and we all have our definitions of that.
One is the way one is.  What has become of "do what comes naturally.."  What comes naturally to me might not be what comes naturally to you.  i had a bi girlfriend once who explained to me in the early eighties how lesbianism was a political choice for women..a long feminist and radical discourse which at the time seemed interesting and which now smacks of BS to me.
As the song says: "Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight. "  I've learned over the years how much I have to choose my battles. I am me before I am a culture.
I think also, having grown up in a very dysfunctional N family, i've had to constantly question everything i did in order to please or fulfill the whims and wishes of very insecure Ns.  This hyper-selfintrospectivity ( new word hahaha like it more than introspection!) has proven to be a minus in my life.  I'm discovering myself and more and more allowing myself to give in to who I really am.  A friend told me recently how that was akin to shedding the layers of false selves i've manufactured as a result of being an ACON.
It's a fascinating and terrifying at times experience this living thing!  but with age i'm growing so incredibly weary of always being scared.  Scared to do/say/be the "wrong" thing!  And to think that was knocked into me ( an artificial reflex if you will) by two people who were only projecting, not their values, but their fears and hang-ups on me.  The blind leading the blind..shameful really!
In my parents' words: "We've always accepted your choice.." scribbled by my mother on a note.  They love my "C", everybody does..however coming from them it's not so much acceptance as a dismissal, or even Ok Nic..that's where we've gotcha!.
 My N mother is always more interested in exploiting the people she "loves", forever finding allies..I actually saw her dragging "C" into a room to better involve him in HER life rather than inviting him( in full view )to share it to an acceptable degree.  In the past I would tell her whenever i saw her pull this kind of stunt..that resulted in her labelling me "jealous".
And we call that emotional incest..again the sexual dimension..a deeper more subtle aspect of sexuality.
Nice talking to you
Nic