for VESMB men

[Hopalong]

Thinking of you, James, and Darren...and all your brothers here, lurkers and posters alike:

http://www.menweb.org/raiscain.htm

http://www.menstuff.org/books/byissue/feelings-general.html

I really value the questions you're asking about masculinity and emotion.
Thank you for sharing them here.

love
Hops

[James]

Hops....I wonder why the ratio of men to women on this board appears unequal. I know the effects of narcissism hurts both sexes but is it just the pressure of society, ingrained over a lifetime, for men to appear silent and strong that produces this effect? thoughts are welcome...........James

[Iphi]

Hmm I agree I was supposed to not have my own feelings and stiff upper lip don't-make-trouble (trouble being defined as anything to inconvenience the N), but outside of the N-zone there was always plenty of feelings talk, in general, as a girl.  There's all kinds of displays of emotion that we think nothing of, girl to girl.  We are very accustomed to them.  You can always disclose some kind of emotion, even if it it minor or trivial, not the crucial stuff, to somebody about something when you are a woman.

It's really otherwise in our culture for guys.  And I think in general the culture is very blind to it as an issue.  In past centuries and other cultures there have been times and places where men expressed emotion freely and without having to feel risky or vulnerable about it.

My H and I talk about these things a lot.  We think our culture is really weird and crazy about the messages it sends to boys and men.

[lighter]

I think girls are discouraged from believing in their feelings from a very young age.

"You don't really hate that dress"

"What a lovely picture you painted"

Instead of validation and questions....... "I understand you don't prefer that dress.... what would you prefer?"

"That's an interesting picture.... how do you feel about it?" etc....

And maybe it's worse for boys but it's not easy for girls.  It's certainly not been easy, IME.

Good thread Hops.

Lighter

[axa]

Amber,

sounds like we are very similiar...........family tensions and I also had a big mouth,

axa

[Izzy_*now*]

In my travels, I have seen more men on the Narcissist Boards than here on the Voiceless Board!

[Iphi]

Wow really thoughtful points and certainly I identify with having emotional displays jeered at in my family.  However, I kind of think we should take that discussion to another thread and think about how the emotional acknowledgement of boys and men is discouraged and inhibited on this topic.

[Hopalong]

Hi James,

My feeling/sense/observation is that this culture is just as dehumanizing to men as to women, but usually in different ways (and often setting the sexes against each other in the process).

football (suck it up! there's no crying in baseball! play through the pain!)
big boys don't cry
don't hug your friend
don't ask for help
...and
WAR (kill people and/or be cannon fodder to show what a man you are)

Hope the books help.

love
Hops

[debkor]

James,

I have always liked and found men a little more attractive to have and show feelings.  It shows they are real and feel. I would not worry so much about how someone will except you (for feeling) I would say if that is what it is based on and they run off THEN LET THEM GO, it's not what you want.  That is how we wind up with N's.

James  I personally vote for the guys who (FEEL) and are not afraid of showing it.  I want to know about them too.

I think showing emotions from  a man is a whole lot more attractive then they may or may not be in looks. It does not make you less of a man it makes you more of one IMO. 

Love
Deb

[mudpuppy]

  Well, we big, dumb, silent, non-crying types come in kinda handy occasionally when there's a predator hanging around the neighborhood or some aggressive creep has decided to let his emotions hang all over the place and is stalking some unfortunate young woman or some ranting crybaby dictator feels like invading his neighbor.
  There's nothing wrong with men dealing with abuse by working through the emotions it raises but outside of that I'll take the strong silent type to a general wave of simpering, Oprah-watching men any day of the week.

mud

[James]

I have not traveled abroad very much but friends who do tell me in many countries they do not see the same degree of reserved feeling many men in the US carry around. Women have been an important part of my healing. I have two sisters, no brothers, and currently a female T. In the last year i have done a lot of crying even sobbing at times with my T and several female friends but no male friends. This i know is directly related to my dad terrorizing me and early sexual abuse. I want to overcome this but i just dont feel comfortable reaching out with the level of traumatic emotions i carry around. Now that i am consciously aware of what happened somehow it's even more important to resolve this issue so that my friendships can be comfortable and honest. I have thought abt joining a mens group in order to deal with the sexual abuse and dad's terrorizing. it's the only way i can think of to share openly these feelings inside without feeling intimitated or ashamed of what happened. As i open up i am actually starting to see that i feel like i'm going to be attacked sometimes like my dad used to do. This once unconscious fear has kept me wary of other men. Can this be done in the real world without being in a group?....James

[Hopalong]

I think a men's group is a superb idea, James.
There's one at my church (UU) that friends tell me has become really important to them.
It started as a course led by the minister, led into a regular group.
Or maybe you could find one led by a good psychologist.

Men need emotionally intimate relationships with each other, and many feel denied that.

(Mud, a quietly confident or very strong man may have less to boil over about, and that's fine too. I'm glad men like you are around. Some men feel they have to fit into a fairly narrow definition of masculinity in order to be "acceptable" to the point that it really cramps their growth in many ways. I'm not sure where the whingeing stereotype of an oversensitive new-age male came from, but that's not what I'm talking about.)

Anyway, I'm not an honorary man today, so I'll butt out for a bit.

xo
Hops

[darren]

Thinking of you, James, and Darren...and all your brothers here, lurkers and posters alike:

http://www.menweb.org/raiscain.htm

http://www.menstuff.org/books/byissue/feelings-general.html

I really value the questions you're asking about masculinity and emotion.
Thank you for sharing them here.

love
Hops

Thanks for thinking of me! =D  There are other forums I hang out at that make feel quite outnumbered by the women.  I don't feel that way here, so much.  It seems we are all going through the same types of situations. 

[mudpuppy]

I'm not sure where the whingeing stereotype of an oversensitive new-age male came from, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Alan Alda.   

mud

[SilverLining]

  We think our culture is really weird and crazy about the messages it sends to boys and men.

I completely agree. I think we are stuck with a socialization process which evolved about a hundred years ago to produce good soldiers, farmers, and factory workers.  From the time a boy is big enough to hold a ball, he is taught to be in an eternal competition with every other male.  First there is the symbolic competition for wins in ball games, but it proceeds to the more serious matters of competing for jobs and "resources" which includes women.   Expressions of feelings and vulnerability are not good moves in the overall "Darwinian struggle" men are trained to endure.

50 years ago, there was at least a work team or company to identify with, but even that is disintegrating today.  Men end up being perpetual "lone wolfs" who have nothing but casual connections at work, and don't have enough intimate connections with family or friends to compensate.