In need of sound minds

[alone48]

I haven't been on the board in a long time, for several reasons. I thought I was getting stronger and also was thinking possibly I was using the N as a crutch for my problems. Let me explain, it's so easy to say because of N ....etc happened. I know that some of it is, but I was trying to sort out what was real and what was an easy way out for me......still haven't done it.

N had accused me of being a lying, manipulative, thief. My ex H (who may or may not be an N) just recently accused me of being manipulative. With this said, I have to really step back and see how much of this I need to own and what is just their skewed perception. I will accept that I do try to manipulate things in the way I think is what should be, but no more than most people. I just never really thought of it as manipulation. Have I ever manipulated to gain something maliciously? I honestly don't think so....?

As you can tell, I really don't like myself right now and find it hard to believe anyone else would. Any suggestions on where to begin in sorting this out would be greatly appreciated. I don't want anyone to try and make me feel better, as I really need to understand what is me and what is the N's I have allowed in my life.

Sorry, I know this doesn't make sense but I don't know how else to put it out there

[Overcomer]

Hi!  I think sometimes us N victims learn to try to manipulate our circumstances when we should just speak our minds.  I know I still tread carefully around my mom and it is hard to be direct.  The only time I am direct is when I am frustrated-then I come off as a raving lunatic.  Try small exercises on being direct-do not beat around the bush-say what you mean and mean what you say.  But do not do what I do-be nice instead.

[debkor]

Hey Alone,


Did I manipulate my circumstances when I was with exN.  I sure did.  It bothered me though and I felt sneaky.  All things I was so against.  I also had my own hidden agenda's.  It was not malicious intent.  It was self protection and for survival. 

I had spoken to the T about it and was disgusted because it is not of my nature to do this.  I was concerned about acting just like the N and doing the same things he did. The T reassured me I was not anything like him or doing it for purposes like he did. I was protecting myself and my family. 

I have no doubt in my mind though if my ex knew what I was doing he would have accused me of the same thing your being accused of.

You sure they are just not projecting what they do.  I know mine would have accused me of it.

Kell,

I know that we should be direct and speak our minds and that is pretty much what I do with everyone.  With the N I could not do this nor would it have mattered it would have gave him a one up on how to use the next sabotage to hold me back and make it harder for me to get out or live there till I did get out. 

Some times we don't need to share everything with Partners like the N partner.  IMO.  There is nothing wrong with self protecting and you don't always have to tell (such people) how you are going to. They will surely try to change it, either through kindness/manipulation or Rage and sabatoge.  Well in my case that is how he worked.

Love
Deb

[alone48]

Lollie,

I understand and will tell more, just so tired now. N manipulated me from the beginning and when I quit doing what he wanted he turned. I know this is a characteristic of N's where they turn their traits onto you, but honestly I doubt myself at this point. If it were only him, I would be able to accept it, but my ex H is now saying that I am a manipulator also. I originally filed for divorce over 4 years ago, he was too cheap to pay for an attorney and let mine do the work. Mine totally screwed up things and though I thought we were divorced, recently found out it isn't finished. I told my ex that since I paid $3,500 to screw it up, he could pay the $750 to the paralegal we found that is going to finish it. He now is telling everyone that I knew all along and was just going to try and get his retirement. If that were the case, I would have done it originally. I will accept blame for the fact I should have followed through and made sure we were divorced, but intentionally trying to stay married?????

My friends, feel that I should get mad and just blast them all, I don't believe that's the answer. I need to figure out what is my responsibility and own up to it and learn how to let go of the other. I think my story explains alot of why I am the way I am, I accept everyones guilt and make it mine.

[Ami]

Dear Alone,
 I think that it is VERY hard to see your part in a complex relationship, such as with an N.My goal ,now,is to  be a whole person. I have some idea what that feels like.
 My goal is to have a sense of centeredness . I want to be able to own my feelings and thoughts. I want to accept myself as "human", not bad, and I am getting there.
 I want to act with love, to the best of my ability.
I want to love myself and love others in my life.
 So, I have these goals, apart from any relationship.
 That helps me, even though I DO get codependent. I have to be "real" and say that I still try to get defined by the outside, too much.
 I am sorry you are hurting, Alone.Keep sharing and I think you will find you are not alone, friend.   Love   Ami

((((((Alone))))))))

[Hopalong]

Hi Alone,
I love Kelly's advice.

Secondarily (and I know I mention this all the time, but I do believe it's a powerful antidote to the warped ways of dealing with the world most women in this culture have acquired)...I suggest an Assertiveness Training workshop.

love to you, you non-repulsive, non-horrible, non-irredeemable person you (manipulate? indirect? welcome to the wounded world of women taught they can't have and do not deserve full agency, full opportunity)...

Hops

[alone48]

Thanks to everyone and Kelly I will try it in baby steps, being direct. I do agree that the manipulation has to do with getting around obstacles rather than trying to win. It has become a way of life and I do want and need to change it.

[Gaining Strength]

alone 48 - I think it is very difficult to sort out what to own with an N.  I think it is very easy to take on their Nish traits and to participate in N behavior. I also think that the way to figure out what traits are yours and therefore what you should own will be more apparent in your relationships with others. 

In relationships with others do you have the characteristics that your exN accuses and confuses you with?  Do you see yourself as manipulative in other relationships?

Maybe a fresh perspective will help you see yourself more clearly and without the N taint.  I suspect that there was Nish behavior with an N that does not appear with non-Ns.  Just a thought - Gaining Strength

[alone48]

It's funny, because I have six really good long time girlfriends that I adore, they are all from different circles and are as different as night and day. Each of them think I take on too much guilt and emotional abuse. I have such wonderful strong women as friends and it amazes them the type of men I choose, totally opposite of what they would expect from me.....they know something I don't.

[Gaining Strength]

.they know something I don't.

Don't you want to know?

[Overcomer]

Alone-I understand what these people are saying after an interchange with my mom yesterday.  I told working with her was CAUSING me to be sick.  Her response was I KNOW YOU ARE SICK AND YOU NEED HELP.  Then she said IT PERPLEXES ME HOW ONE MINUTE YOU ARE NICE AND THE NEXT MINUTE YOU ARE NOT.  She eluded that I was unstable and she got me again.  I guess a direct NO will work on them but you do not have to play all your cards because they will use i against you.

[Ami]

The problem with the NM, Kelly, is that even when we live far away, they are still in our heads.I am still having the stress symptom from her ,as if she were here-.          Ami