Lessons

[Ami]

I never learned about 'boundaries". I should say I never learned about "healthy" boundaries. I learned that I better NOT set a boundary with my NM or I would "pay".
With an N, a boundary is  a bull seeing red. It is  John Belushi in Animal House when he wanted to "party". Anything goes . My recent interaction  showed  my life, in microcosm.
 My fear  of setting boundaries was my  fear of my M's anger, rage when I wanted to keep anything private.
I have been  repeating my interaction with my M .Everyone was my M and I was the little child.
Ann said that my M would not allow me the smallest,independent  thought.I did not have a private me that could live in peace,inside me. That was one of the biggest problems.
 I remember having a "private " self and how peaceful it felt to think and feel what I did , without censoring it for" Big Brothers eyes". It was so wonderful just to "be" in my thoughts and feelings and not judge them as "bad".
 I hope I am learning the lesson that it is OK to have an interior me and that I can think and feel what I want and what I do. My actions are usually acceptable to me.
 My sticking place has been judging my thoughts and feelings.
 I know this is an old lesson, packaged as a "new" lesson, but it will always be an "old" lesson until it is learned.      Ami
 

 

[ann3]

Ami,

When it come to learning boundaries, I think a big part for us is to trust ourselves, trust our voice within.  Our NMs always criticised us, made us doubt ourselves, defined our reality, it's no wonder that we can't tell up from down- we don't trust ourselves.

Ann said that my M would not allow me the smallest,independent  thought.I did not have a private me that could live in peace,inside me. That was one of the biggest problems.
I agree 100% with this.  Our NMs never allowed us to "individuate", to become indivdsuals, to become our own person with our own thoughts and ideas.  Instead, our NMs stunted our emotional, psychological growth and did not allow us to have our own ideas, our own thoughts.  If we had ideas or emotions that they didn't like, they would critisize us and make us doubt our own thoughts.  They made us 2nd guess ourselves, distrust ourselves, distrust our voice within, so we never knew what our reality was and we never knew ourselves. That's why we can't tell up from down.

But, once we listen to our voice within, then we can set boundaries (if it gives us a stomach or head ache, that means we should set a boundary and say "no"), define our realities and start feeling like a whole person who has the right to live our own life the way we want to and the right to even be happy!!

xoxo,
ann

[ann3]

Ami,

I may buy this book, seems it talks about how to break free from (N)Ms.

Here's an excerpt   http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0071447229/ref=sib_dp_pop_toc?ie=UTF8&p=S007#

http://www.amazon.com/Oh-No-Ive-Become-Mother/dp/0071447229/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product

Ami,look at this book!!!!!  "Freeing-Yourself-Narcissist-Your-Life".  I'm buying that one!!!!!!!!

http://www.amazon.com/Freeing-Yourself-Narcissist-Your-Life/dp/1585426245/ref=pd_rhf_f_t_cs_2

[gjazz]

I certainly agree with all of this.  When I was younger, everything--every situation, every conversation--was like a spinning vortex.  I couldn't tell (as Ann3 says here) up from down.  It was only with physical removal from the presence of my NF (i.e. once I became an adult and moved away) that I started to get better, and it took a long time--or I should is, is taking a long time.   When I was around him I'd do things I couldn't even figure out, attacking others to try to keep the focus off me, lying, hiding--literally, physically hiding, I spent years crawling on the floor whenever I thought he might he looking in my windows, and never answered my phone.  And I was one of those people who explain themselves incessantly, and make up stories, to try to gain some control over what was happening to me, though the only result of that was that people heard me even less, because I was babbling incoherently and they got tired of the tall tales--which weren't necessarily tall, just off-base.  I was so confused I confused everyone around me.

[ann3]

((((((((((gjazz))))))))))), I hear you!!  Over explaining myself, confusion, me too.

I spent years crawling on the floor whenever I thought he might he looking in my windows, and never answered my phone.  ((((((((((gjazz)))))))))))

Twisting ourselves into a pretzel and for what??  We never felt that it's our life and we should live it as we choose.

Amazon's great, found another book:  Emotional Abuse: The Trauma and the Treatment
http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Abuse-Marti-Tamm-Loring/dp/0787943770/ref=si3_rdr_bb_produ

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0787943770/ref=sib_dp_pop_cr?ie=UTF8&p=S007#

Just the idea that someone wrote these books pumps me up.  I have a future and I have a me.

xoxo,
ann

[gjazz]

Because this is "lessons" not just boundaries, maybe it's worth it to mention a lesson I'm learning now the very hard way: everyone here is lucky.  We are lucky because we have a chance to change and make things right in our worlds and other people's.  We are alive.  In my family there are twin 5 1/2 year old boys.  One was diagnosed with a rare illness his first year of life, and is not expected to live past 11 or so.  The other twin--the healthy one--was diagnosed with cancer late last year.  I learned this morning that when he went in for his latest chemo treatment the doctors said he's too sick now to withstand the chemo.  This is what they told my uncle a few years ago, two weeks before he died, also of cancer.  Nothing in the world feels normal now, the only thing I keep thinking is, never miss an opportunity to make a positive difference in someone's life.  Remember all the ways we're lucky.  Don't only focus on the bad stuff (well I know that's what the board is for).

[Ami]

Dear Gjazz,
 I know just what it means to be in a state where nothing feels normal. I have had that with Scott's death. For the first few weeks, I felt like I was in a different world .
 Even after tragedy, you still have your old "frozen" issues. Nothing makes them go away ,except  dealing with them.
 I see that more clearly than ever,after talking to a friend of mine who told me that she puts her issues on the back burner. She drinks too much, also.
 It does not work,IME.
  If it did, I would do it. I wish it would(lol) .It would be easier than trying to face the deep pain,inside. Compost what does not fit, Gjazz.Thanks for your input,on the board.
                      Love    Ami
 

[Ami]

I have to write about this b/c I am completely desperate. I have had stomach aches since the  interaction, here. I am so angry that my NM violated me the same way. I loved her so much and tried so hard to do everything she wanted,but she violated me so  thoughtlessly, over and over and over.
 I feel so stupid, even though it is not my fault. I could not see her ,like I did this one, which was obvious.
 I feel like such a fool  to keep trying to get her to love me, when she just kept violating me.
 I could just cry and cry for my lost life. I lost my ability to eat and almost my life trying to get her to love me, while ALL the time,she was violating me and I NEVER knew it,until I saw it in technicolor, here.
 I cannot get rid of these stomach aches. I am so discouraged.
    Ami

[gjazz]

I agree drinking too much doesn't help, although if you are at a place where you say, "I'll either drink myself into a stupor or throw myself off a bridge," well, OK, booze it up.  I think something like what my family's going through right now, and you've gone through, is a great clarifier.  My NF was a terrible influence on my life, but no more.  It sounds simplistic, but no more.  I have today.  I have tomorrow.  I've been given more in life than this kid has, we have to support him so he can walk, he weighs under 40 lbs. now; he didn't ask for this unending pain, either, at five years old.  And there's so much suffering in the world.  So I'm simply turning my back and walking away from my NF--not from my F entirely, that's up to him, but from his N side, ENTIRELY.  From now on, any interaction is on my terms and my rules.  All communications written, no verbal, so he can't squirrel out.  If that doesn't work for him, fine.  We won't have any relationship.  I'm OK with that, for the rest of my life.  Like your NM, he had no capacity to love me, OK.  So now we're adults, and if he wants any sort of bond, he can apply, and let me know what he's offering, and maybe it'll work and maybe it won't, but I feel no obligation either way.  Life's too short.  And you know, that feels fine to me.  Hope you feel less desperate now, hang in there, keep the faith.

[Ami]

I need to address the topic of boundaries. This is one of my key issues.The reason I have stomach aches is I feel that I am not WORTH setting a boundary. It is really that I feel I have to put tentacles out from my stomach and manage other people's emotions, so I will be OK.
 I see this from a board friend who showed me how to look at issues as we did ,as the original child, who had to twist and turn in order to survive.
 I HAD to take care of my M and my stomach aches are my pouring out of myself to take care of others so I can be OK.
 I have to feel like I am worth it, to take care of myself.
                                           Ami

PS I think is we REALLY can feel our boundaries and feel we are worth having a "outline" around us and the outside world, we will be close to being emotionally healthy

[Ami]

I have been having so many lessons.
 I saw my how my NM treated me. I saw it from beginning to end.
 It was not my fault ,other than I was  vulnerable, which a child is.
I was just "there" and THAT was my fault. Other than that,it was not.
I blamed myself  my whole life. I thought I was "bad". The NM was bad,if you could call it that.
They push aside their own hated emotions and lash out at you, a vulnerable person and push it all on you. They tell you that you are all the "bad" things they have pushed away in themselves----projection.
The child thinks he is bad. He spends his whole life thinking he is bad b/c the NM projected on him and STILL does. .
I thought I was bad all this time and I wasn't.    Ami

[Overcomer]

No you are not bad you are GOOD AND SO AM I!  I AM SMART AND SWEET AND NICE!

[Ami]

You know ,Kelly.
I '"got " it.
The N HATES anything beautiful, a beautiful spirit, innocence,love, integrity, anything that raises a human being higher than an ANIMAL. They hate it all. That is how we got destroyed, Kelly.         Ami

[debkor]

Ami,

They hate themselves the most.  That is why they project all their shame and anger onto others.  I do not believe they really hate others, I don't think they see others(not as a separate entity) only themselves and what you are seeing, feeling, hearing is Them.  They despise themselves but cannot deal with it so they make it everyone else's.  They can not own up to themselves.  The are weak and sad beings and are punishing others for what was most likely done to them or not done to them.

It's all projections Ami and when that mirror you show back is not a good image of them it causes more pain and you will be severely punished because they ONLY SEE THEMSELVES and will strive forever to get that perfect adoring image that they are good, the almighty, the feared, what ever they need, even if they have to beat it out of you, terrorize it of you, guilt, shame, whatever it takes.  And who better to do it with?  Thier children.  They cannot walk out the door and say, alright, this is unhealty  get help M or else I will have to cut you off and move out, don't make me have a NO Contact cause I will if I have too! And I'm only 7, or 12 or or.
Your supply with me has ended.  Not possible at that age Ami.  You did not have mature thinking!!! Neither did they! 

But now you know this, as an adult (you could not know this as a child)  and it is difficult to get through the pain.

Love
Deb
 

[Ami]

Thank you, Deb.
 You "get" it.
 I was telling my M about an incident that happened when I was in my late teens or early twenties. I was getting on a plane flying back to college. I asked her if she wanted me to call her when I got there.
 She said,"Don't bother, I'll hear if it crashes".
Well, she told me last week that SHE was angry at me that *I* was not taking care of HER and loving HER as SHE needed. I really am floored at N's.
 Maybe, I am finally getting it. I think I am.I feel much,much better. Thanks Deb.   Love   Ami