Overt Groups - Shadow Groups

[teartracks]

Hi everyone,

Following is an  intresting scrap that may be of interest.

" when an individual is triggered into emotional reactivity, especially as a result of projection, their shadow self engulfs their overt self and replaces it as the operational entity. In a group setting, the overt selves of the individual members constitute the overt group while their shadow selves comprise the normally dormant shadow group. As group conflict escalates from one member's initial emotional outburst, more and more members experience shadow-self engulfment and eventually the shadow group may operationally replace the overt group. "

from a link called Emerald: http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insight/viewContentItem.do?contentType=Article&hdAction=lnkhtml&contentId=1587852&dType=SUB&history=false

Jung writes, "If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all his projections, then you get an individual who is conscious of a pretty thick shadow . . . Such a man knows that whatever is wrong in the world is in himself, and if he only learns to deal with his own shadow he has done something real for the world"

tt

[Certain Hope]

tt,

At the moment, that first part is over my head (and may always be, I dunno), but I like the Jung quote and believe it to be true.

But then I also believe that there is no greater freedom or joy than to be liberated from self...

With love from an odd duck,
Carolyn

[debkor]

TT,

I do love when you put these things out here and make us challenge our thoughts.   I'm going to read it right after I eat my baked clams and see what I can come up with.

Love
Deb

[Hopalong]

Thanks for this, TT.

I think the quote means that if you fully own yourself, all your impulses and words and tendencies, the dark and the light, if you fully own your capacity for harm and soberly contain it, then your capacity for love and usefulness is free to be engaged creatively with others...

I think maybe shame stops that full ownership. So many people experience accountability not as growth, self-measurement, or honesty, which all bring maturity and peace--but as judgment, dishonor, and annihilation. So they evade themselves, turning and turning again to avoid the frank look in the mirror. Shame makes it impossible to integrate our darkness into ourselves, where we can use it to build strength. It's like a "resistance exercise" from the inside.

If we accept that the capacity for harm is as much a part of us as is the DNA which leads us to death, then we can resist it naturally, routinely, more and more easily as time goes by. And then we see that we do not have to be annihilated by our dark side, but in exercising calmly against it, we become strong enough to use our light.

Hops

[nogadge]

Yes, I like to ponder such things, and promise to get back with my 2bits...lets see if I can even come close.  Nogadge

[debkor]

I think that we all have emotional shadows.  We may be aware of them or not.  We may act on them or not.  We may even act on them and not know we are.  We may appear to be open with emotions and even think we are but there will always be those shadows of (old emotions, hidden emotions, some unconcious emotions).  We will try to cast these out and project them on to others as thiers.  We will not be open and say they are ours so they will always be our shadow. We will never own them.  What I am claiming you to be is really my own shadow what I am, what I feel, or was, or felt.

I think if you were to look at what you are feeling, really look, you just might find that your feelings of others, just may be what you are feeling about yourself.

So when it becomes a group and when it starts with an outburst from one person, one gets triggered, shadows are cast, then another, then another, and the people who were maybe open start to get triggerd now start to have thier *unaware, old, emotions triggered then project on to another, and eventually the ones who do not project and know that the emotions they are feeling belong and are about them try to compromise with the shadow group to no avail and the shadow group is so large it take over.



I have seen this happen.  It has happened to me.  I was triggered and  (my emotions) were reactivated and I had to stop and realize that they belonged to me and I had  projected them onto someone else who maybe had nothing to with my emotions in the first place, it was just a trigger, a memory of an event that happened, something I had done, or not done and how I felt about it . I was seeing my own shadow.  It was not the other person. And I had to deal with me my shadows. There was some thing wrong within myself.

This is hard to express.  And I don't know If I got it right. 

Love
Deb

[Juno]

" when an individual is triggered into emotional reactivity, especially as a result of projection, their shadow self engulfs their overt self and replaces it as the operational entity. In a group setting, the overt selves of the individual members constitute the overt group while their shadow selves comprise the normally dormant shadow group. As group conflict escalates from one member's initial emotional outburst, more and more members experience shadow-self engulfment and eventually the shadow group may operationally replace the overt group. "

I think this is what is happening where I work.  From what I understand it is what has always happened where I work.  I guess I think of it as some people or situations bring out the "worst" and others bring out the "best".  Where I work the "worst" has indeed taken over and become the "way it is".

It is such a struggle to spend so much time in this dynamic.  Especially since everyone in the workplace needs to work and needs to be paid and that is how we maintain our "real" lives.  Which are completely shortchanged.

I wake up everyday dreading going in there.  Much of the time when I'm just thinking or sitting with my feelings at home--I seem to be feeling complete disappointment in myself.  I feel like I don't have anything to look forward to.  It is hard to see my way clear.

Everyone where I work is being triggered daily if not hourly.  Inner children everywhere.  Hurting inner children.  Even the people I hate.  I can see that they are dealing with stuff from mommy and daddy too.  Just with those people, I have little sympathy.  Sympathy can be in short supply in groups where the shadows dominate.  If people manage to bond first.... then those people have sympathy for each other.... almost no matter what goes on.  If you are like me, and have trouble bonding, then it can be lonely indeed.

The part of the statement regarding conflict--I think conflict can be on-going.  Not necessarily a particular event that everything can be traced back to.  The conflict might be a result of the power structure in a place.  Abuse of power.  So, I suppose the workplace would be especially susceptible.  And the family too.

Gotta go to work..... see ya later.

[Hopalong]

And facism...

(shudder)

Off to work, where I have mostly unshadowed companions (after a few years of wading chest-deep in shadows), so I'm very grateful.

Hops

[Certain Hope]

tt,

Sill thinking.

About this emotional reactivity...  sometimes I think that people just speak up in alleged moral outrage or apparently righteous anger in order to cover their own shadow side ( like a case of "methinks she doth protest too much" ).  In other words, they're afraid that if they don't appear outraged at some supposed indecency, others will recognize that they're capable of just the same... and worse.


Carolyn

[towrite]

I do believe that a shadow-self, un-owned, replays over and over its negativity without awareness.

[Certain Hope]

Would another possible solution  be to integrate if possible, our hidden side and our open side for all to see all the time, or would that defeat the purpose and make us even more vulnerable to someone who is not as transparent?

Teartracks wants to know!

tt, Vulnerable in what way?

A person who has fully integrated herself is no longer inclined to pick up every offense laid at her feet. Vulnerable to attack and character assassination? Definitely.

You know a Man who never did a single thing wrong. And look what they did to Him!

Love,
Carolyn

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
 Your post on the shadow side was wonderful. Thank you so much. It was"poetry in motion", to me.     Love   Ami

[Certain Hope]

Hi Carolyn,

Sorry.  What I meant was that if one escapes or puts aside their shadow self (I'd like to know if Jung thought we were inescapably mantled with a shadow side or if he was interested in or thought it possible or desirable to integrate the two sides at all?) and becomes transparent in an environment, culture, world, where few  have integrated the shadow self and the overt self, would that, by virtue of their uncommon transparency, not make that person more vulnerable to the nasty side of of the majority?  As I said, I'm just talking.  I don't pretend to have gotten into the mind of Jung (not sure I'd like to anyway) or the person who wrote the quote I was referring to.  I wasn't expressing a belief system of my own, but rather exploring the implications of the original post.  The more I got into it, the more I thought it was an exercise in circular thinking.  Then I got tired of thinking.

I do get your drift that the only perfect one is/was not immune to the unveiled hostility of the masses. 

tt

Sorry, tt... often it takes me several passes at a topic before I begin to catch on. Thanks for your patience!!

I'm not sure what Jung thought, but alot of my reading has left me with the impression that the "shadow side" is practically glorified, as though we're supposed to revel in it as the aspect which makes us complete. That may only be my own perception, though.

As to the reaction of the masses to one who's become integrated and transparent... I think that such a one is more likely viewed as a fool than as a threat, unless he's acting in a whistle-blower capacity.

And I think you're right about the circular reasoning involved here... quite likely due to the total inability (as I see it) of secular thinkers to explain the origin of evil (shadows) and still maintain an elevated view of humankind.... and around we go

Love,
Carolyn

[Certain Hope]

Jung writes, "If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all his projections, then you get an individual who is conscious of a pretty thick shadow . . . Such a man knows that whatever is wrong in the world is in himself, and if he only learns to deal with his own shadow he has done something real for the world"

Hi, tt,

I'm curious though about what you and others think about my interpretation of the quote as indicating that the shadow side can only communicate with the opponents shadow side.  Shadow to shadow - overt to overt.  In a way it makes sense to me, but in a way not.  What do you thinK?

Makes sense to me...
.... to the extent that a person has relegated her shadow side to the pit of denial, she's limited herself to a black and white thinking style re: everyone she encounters.
What is kept in the darkness grows and multiplies, and despite its "host's" unawareness of its presence, this rubbish must be disposed of periodically.

I guess that disposal occurs in the form of transference/projection, when that suits, and also occasionally gets acted out more blatantly, when there's sufficient safety in numbers (all that darkside communication goin on) to prevent being singled out as an offender.

Maybe the way that it's not making sense to you is due to the fact that folks are in different stages of denial re: their own dark sides? The more we each come to terms with our own innate capacity for darkness, the more occupied we'll be with working out our own salvation, so to speak, eh? And correspondingly - - - the less we'll be willing to dump the blame for foolishness at someone else's feet.

Love,
Carolyn

[Gabben]

Hi tt,

I have to agree with Carolyn that this stuff is hard to digest on the first go around but it does make sense.

But my question, tt, for you, is along the lines of some of Carolyn's posts and questions in that could an emotional reaction simply just be undisguised and unbridled righteous indignation over what one person perceives is an injustice or harm?

For example if someone is covert bulling someone and no one see's it but the target, would the target's response of emotional pain and outburst be generated out of our normal human inclinations for self-respect as well as our human emotional and social instincts rather than our shadow side?

It says that those who are cleaner, or more integrated, are going to get more mud/projection slung at them. In other words, mud sticks best to a clean spot.

But here is the other idea. If we see something in someone else that we do not like....such as envy or pride, we will tend to dislike that person and pick on them. We will be trying to pick out the speck in their eye, so to speak.

What that means for me is that the person who is being projected onto has the very same qualities that the projector has BUT to a lesser degree. So what one must do if they do not want to be picked on and targeted is they must continue to face and work on themselves....removing the speck as well as more fully embracing our shadow side.

The person who projects always has the larger portion of shadow, perhaps?


Carolyn,

This is good...whistle-blower is becoming my middle name.

As to the reaction of the masses to one who's become integrated and transparent... I think that such a one is more likely viewed as a fool than as a threat, unless he's acting in a whistle-blower capacity.