Understanding my mother

[Gaining Strength]

I posted this on a different thread but noone said anything.  I'm posting it again because this is so powerful to me.  I so hope it will connect with someone else and we can talk about it. 

Here is a description of on type of shame I found on a Nathanson website - a perfect description of my mother's behavior:

Finally, for those who can do nothing by their own mind or hand to raise their own self esteem
when shame hits, there is the attack other library of scripts through which they can work to reduce the
self esteem of anyone else who happens to be available. At this pole of the Compass, anything that
brings shame can be defined arbitrarily as insulting disrespect that "must" be handled by compensatory
attack lest the individual suffer further shame. Attack Other behavior includes insults, verbal or physical
attack, bullying of any kind, sexual sadism, or anything that seems to prevent the momentary sense of
inferiority by (for only that moment) feeling bigger and better than the other guy. Sadly, to the extent
that any individual hones the skills associated with Attack Other behavior, severe limitations are placed
on the ability to negotiate, moderate, love, and nurture.

My mother has lived in the "attack others" mode all my life.  Now I know - it is clearly, succinctly written in this simply, short paragraph that people with the attack others behavior  cannot love or nurture.  She can't negotiate.  This last sentence answers the questions that Lo was asking about her - "why does she behave that way?"

[Ami]

Dear GS
 I am trying to understand the paragraph. Are you saying that s/one who is IN this "attack  mode" is incapable of being loving and nurturing?
 She is, in a sense, frozen and locked in to this mode, which makes it impossible to have or manifest any of the loving behaviors of a "normal "mother?             

[lighter]

I identify strongly with this informatoin.... but not in regard to my mother.....

in other places, with other people....

too lesser or greater degrees, I can identify ribbons of it running through my life.

Very good subject, GS.

Lighter

[Gaining Strength]

Ami - actually I'm not saying it.  I took this paragraph from an article written by a psychologist, endocrinologist named Nathanson.

Lighter - thanks for your post.

[Ami]

What I meant was 'Am I understanding it in the same way you are?' It was not that clear to me, when I read it. .I wanted clarification and so I tried to summarize it, so I could, then, comment.                     

[Certain Hope]

Dear GS,

Yes, I recognize this behavior.

She can appear to be nurturing if there's an audience before whom to perform, but the very expression of a need is often a direct insult to her (if she has not anticipated that need and provided for it). In other words, it must never be about you, but always about her.

The existence of another independent human being within her realm is a threat to her very being and is interpreted by her as taking away something which should, by rights, be hers. She functions from a perspective of lack - - -  there will never, ever be enough (whatever) and so other individuals, including her own children, are attacked like viruses which have invaded a healthy body.


This crud was so thick in our home growing up that the simple act of getting up from the table to go to the frig for the butter dish was interpreted as an act of insulting disrespect that must be handled by compensatory attack, etc, etc. The very act of having an independent thought, desire, or need is taken by these people has a purposeful insult. Genuinely nurture or negotiate? Impossible... because to do so would be the equivalent of lying naked on the tracks before an oncoming train. She can't even ask you what you need, lest she be required to face the fact that there is something in the universe which she is incapable of providing.

Love to you,
Carolyn

[Gaining Strength]

Okay, let me give it a try.

I am trying to understand the paragraph. Are you saying that s/one who is IN this "attack  mode" is incapable of being loving and nurturing?
 She is, in a sense, frozen and locked in to this mode, which makes it impossible to have or manifest any of the loving behaviors of a "normal "mother?  

Yes I think it says that it is impossible to be in the "attack others" script  and be loving and nurturing.  That is when the person is shamed but a person who is deeply shamed can reside permanently in this script.  A shamed mother can be triggered just by her children needing something of her. 

[Gaining Strength]

She can appear to be nurturing if there's an audience before whom to perform, but the very expression of a need is often a direct insult to her (if she has not anticipated that need and provided for it). In other words, it must never be about you, but always about her.

The existence of another independent human being within her realm is a threat to her very being and is interpreted by her as taking away something which should, by rights, be hers. She functions from a perspective of lack - - -  there will never, ever be enough (whatever) and so other individuals, including her own children, are attacked like viruses which have invaded a healthy body.

These are very powerful descriptions.  My father does that first where he "appears" to be nurturing as a show to his friends.  He recently did that about my brother's art show to his friends.  But this is the same father who told my brother on his birthday that he would be sure that my brother received nothing in ways of inheritance.  Now that's nurturing.

That paucity as opposed to abundance is my mother 100 fold.  That very description of N (shamed) behavior is perhaps the one that has kept me tied to her.  I need - she has - she won't give - I need - .........

[Ami]

I see what you mean, GS.
I am seeing "amazing" things in my M(amazing in a bad way-lol). I told you about the airport incident. My M admitted that she WAS angry at me b/c I was not taking care of HER and loving her the right way,so she hurt me by telling me that "she would hear if the plane crashed" AS I was walking down the "on ramp" to get on---bleh.
 I see how she felt justified in hurting me b/c *I* was not loving her ,in the way SHE wanted.
 *I* could not have needs. I had to have an eagle eye ,on her. That is the root of my current stomach aches.
                 Love   Ami

[Gaining Strength]

*I* could not have needs.
This line holds so much damage in it.  For children, infants - to not be able to need.

[Ami]

Dear GS,
 I am locked in to the very childhood struggle, NOW, even though my M is far away. It is IN my body. I am always trying to take care of her so I can have my very survival.IF we did not "meet" their needs, we thought we would die, literally.
  I make other people "her' and repeat the pattern over and over.            Love   Ami

[Certain Hope]

I need - she has - she won't give - I need - .........

Yes... and sometimes the shame gets so thick that the need begins to appear illegitimate... or simply disappears from awareness.
For years, I had a "I don't need anything" attitude which suited her just fine.
In fact, if it's possible to be starved of the awareness of needs, that was me.
She trained me well. Had to be pretty desperate circumstances before a need even came to my attention... whether it was for food, medical care, or even just a full bladder.

Once my awareness returned, there was a definite period of resentment for all the needs that had gone unaddressed for years, but now... I simply don't connect or relate any of my needs to my parents... or to any other particular human being, for that matter.
One of the most difficult battles I've ever fought (and I'm far from done with it!) has been working toward eliminating my expectations toward other people when it comes to need fulfillment. Knowing that God promises to meet all of my needs in Christ is the only ground on which I can stand shameless... and that requires consistent, daily, moment-by-moment practice, by faith.

My parents have helped on a few occasions... and there are many more occasions on which they could have, but haven't. Knowing that I can't get from them now, what wasn't given when I was a child... well, that has eased the bitterness and changed my focus alot. Leaving the past where it belongs, there really isn't anything that I need from them now... and I think it can be the same for you, dear GS.

Love,
Carolyn

[Gaining Strength]

Knowing that I can't get from them now, what wasn't given when I was a child... well, that has eased the bitterness and changed my focus alot. Leaving the past where it belongs, there really isn't anything that I need from them now... and I think it can be the same for you, dear GS.

Yes I hear you.  Because I have taken on the concept that shame and love cannot coexist I believe that I can project onto my mother a love when she offers shame.  That might be my shield and who knows it might be received by her.  Up until now I have responded to her shaming with anger, internalized rage and responses that clearly must have increased rather than alleviated her shame.

I hear you Carolyn.

[Ami]

That last post,Carolyn, reminded me of the thread about being entitled to our emotions. *I*  did not feel entitled to my emotions OR my needs. THAT is how you end up abused--bleh.
 I remember that I was bullied by my in-laws, little snipes. I did not fight back, and  my H did not either, until one day I had just had a C section and was too exhausted to be in my "nice"(ie shut down ) pattern.
 I stood up and said,"If you snipe me any more, I will not see you again and it is fine with me.
 They NEVER did another thing to me for over 20 years.
 I would never have addressed my needs unless I was driven to that point by sheer exhaustion.That was how out of touch I was with  my needs  and still am, to a great extent.
 I think we could NOT need OR have feelings. It was too dangerous for us to be vulnerable . Our parents  had to be taken care of for our VERY survival. That is why we are don't know or honor our needs and feelings, now. That is what I meant by replaying the original pattern of my childhood ,over and over.       Ami

[gratitude28]

Yes, GS, that makes good sense. When I have to be with my mother, I have a full-day litany of what and whom she "hates." I despise that word so much that I have taken it out of our home vocabulary. She hates anyone who looks at her wrong, she hates people in the other political party, she hates the heads of football teams, she hates certain actresses... I could go on and on. She spends so much time categorizing everyone into the "hate it" or "love it" bunch that she has no time to really appreciate it. She just has to make certain that SHE has given or taken away approval.