I need advice

[debkor]

Yesterday I went out with my friend (N or something) on an emergency run to a hospital.  Not a big deal and nothing to do with her children.

Anyway when we got back we went to pick up her kids and it is like living in the military. Do this, do that, didn't you do this, whats that, pick up this, your not fast enough, Helloooo, I'm speaking to you can you move any faster,  OMG it was horrible.  I wanted to scream SHUT UP  but I know if I did she would have went off on them more.   It is like living at Mommy Boot Camp but worse.

I had noticed that the girls  look over at me when M is on her rampage and rants.  I wasn't sure if they were embarrassed or looking to see if I see what they see.

Then yesterday when M went on her rampages and rants all along while I was speaking to the one D, as she kept doing what she was told, she looked at me (M was in another room screaming orders) and said, She Hates Me.  I said, what did you say and she repeated, She Hates me.  We spoke low and carefully.  I didn't know what to say.  She is just short of 12.  I said, I don't think your M hates you, do you really think she does or are you kidding, just mad.  She said, no she really hates me.  It does not matter what I do, how much I do, she just hates me.  She goes from Angry to Nice her mood swings are constant and she Hates Me.

I had to be quick and quiet but I told her that her mom has a lot of problems and they were not because of her. There is something wrong and it was with their mom and not them. I told her maybe she needs to have a talk with her mom and she looked panicked and said, NOT NOW, she's angry.  I agreed with her and then M walked back in. So we shut up but did the whole huggy thing before I left and looked at each other with the, I know, kind of looks.

The D has never came right out and said anything like this.  Not straight out and I was taken back and have to be very carefull what I do with this.

And I'm not sure if I should do anything with this as far a the M.  If I speak to her and I know we will get into an argument over this it just might make her go back and do the, What goes on in this house, stays in this house, So I may  make it worse for the D that she will never speak and become even more voiceless. 

So for now I keep the secret. Until they reveal it and if they don't then it stays, not completely voiceless because I'm hearing them  but voiceless with the M.

I really don't know what to say or how to say things.  I just pretty much validate and comfort as much as I can.  I don't know how to heal her heart for her M neglect (emotional) neglect.  She also, expressed that she is confused at how sometimes she can be nice then turn it all around to feel like she is being hated again.

and I can't even tell her because, I don't Know,and I'm 51 can't imagine a 12 year old trying to figure this out.

So I say nothing to M now.  Do you think this is the right thing?  I don't want to make it worse.


Love
Deb




 

[Izzy_*now*]

hi deb,

I have no advice, but I would assure any of the children that the mother loves them, and when problems whatever come along,  she becomes hyper, whatever and  we always hurt ther ones we love, the ones we shouldn't hurt at all

I think the 12 year old is old enough to say, "Mommy. I love you but I feel really hurt when you go all ballistic and yell at all of us!"

I am thinking that she would never listen to you--- she would take it as criticizing her mothering, but from one or all of the children????

Love
Izzy

[Gabben]

Deb,

Why do you not say anything to the ranting mom? I can understand how frightening that would be but I know from my own experience of growing up with a ranting mom that if someone witnessed the verbal and assaulting abuse that I was prone to, yet did nothing, it would  be insult to wound.

"I had noticed that the girls  look over at me when M is on her rampage and rants.  I wasn't sure if they were embarrassed or looking to see if I see what they see."

Most likely both.

Your words of honesty and comfort to the 12 year old were wonderful to read.

Sometimes we have to take risks in life, even at the risk of losing for the sake of justice. Who knows, perhaps the M does not perceive herself the way others do, obviously not. If you were to try to say something to her in a gentle and loving way she may not respond to you well at first but she might take it to heart, beginning to treat the children better....think about the children, which I can see you already are doing.

Lise

[Ami]

This is just my opinion, but I feel very strongly about it . I think you cannot try to change the M. She will just be worse for thekids, later when you are gone.You have to try to verify the kids reality to the best of your ability.
It could be life saving to the kids.
  Love   Ami

[Juno]

I had this situation with my sister.  I never knew what to do.  I tried sending her parenting advice but it fell on deaf ears.  She could re-frame anything into it not being her fault, etc.  The bad mommy taboo was, I think, weighing on her, but her own vast needs out-weighed even that.  I had my nephew spend a summer with us once and it was very difficult but we got through it and he remembers it fondly as far as I know.  They have always lived in a different state from us.  At one time I thought he was going to be taken away from his mother--I thought of having him come live with us, but knew she would never give up custody.  He could not attend school here, though, if I did not have custody.  Then we began having problems with our oldest and I knew we couldn't add another person with problems to this household so, I did nothing basically.

My nephew saved himself.  He left home at 17 and crashed with friends (with varying degrees of being well-cared-for or not) and got himself graduated from  high school and into the Air Force before reconciling with his mother.  My sister has re-framed the whole history of the relationship and become a wonderful mother in her own mind.  I suppose they have a reasonable relationship now.  I would say he has forgiven her. 

These kids you know could use kind adults in their lives.  It is hard to tell if the mother can change or not.  I would doubt it.  Maybe the girls could be like your "Little Sisters" with times to talk or relax with you at a movie or for ice cream or something every so often.  Or invite them over to help in the yard or baking or something.

It's a really hard thing. 

[Gabben]

Why do you not say anything to the ranting mom? I can understand how frightening that would be but I know from my own experience of growing up with a ranting mom that if someone witnessed the verbal and assaulting abuse that I was prone to, yet did nothing, it would be insult to wound.

"I had noticed that the girl's look over at me when M is on her rampage and rants.  I wasn't sure if they were embarrassed or looking to see if I see what they see."

Deb,

I wanted to follow-up with this because it has brought up some memories from my childhood and what it was like to have a ranting and abusive mother. Once, there was a neighbor who intervened, no doubt at the risk of garnering my mom's wrath, but looking back I recall that I felt better as a child and as a healing adult knowing that others saw and were willing to risk. I cannot identify the feelings other than in my healing process, looking back, I have been able to reach the pain by recalling that others saw what my abusive mom was doing and risked themselves to stand up for me and protect me even if there was no result, immediately.

The children may feel the result of any efforts you take regardless of whether or not the mother changes.

It takes courage to operate in a courageless world.

There is a test we can take before we take any action and it is for you to ask yourself is the reason that you do not or, do something, coming from fear? If it is, then you are not acting out of love and courage.

Acting out of love requires faith.

Lise

[debkor]

Gabben


I have and it got into a knock down blow out fight that almost came to fist (very very close).  I walked out.  I had to.  Right smack dab into her children sitting listening to everything.  GMa let them into the house as we were arguing although we were behind closed doors they heard everything.  I would call that a set up. She was trying to shame her D by letting her Ds kids hear. So this went from generation to another generation. Shame, shame, shame all over the place and then I took on some too.  The children hearing it was resolved with help of M that we were just acting like two sister who sometimes fight and no big deal.  They seemed to be alright with that.
 
Her children know I have their backs and even M knows I do, as odd, as it is. But the confrontation will never happen again. 


Iz,

I have assured her D that  M loves them she just has some problems right now.  I told her to talk to her M when she feels ready and the time is right.

PR

Yes I agree.  M will not listen to me.  I do approach and she open it up about what and what her kids are not doing or doing and I use mine as example, oh that's what kids do, oh mine is 23 and still does and I try to go that way now. Besides there is not much more I can do.

I am not talking to someone who is reasonable or for only short periods.  She is hell bent on self pity right now and it's all about her, her, her.


Ami,

You are right.  I cannot change M. I think it will be worse for kids too if I say something (as you can see from what I told Gabben). It was worse all around for everyone. 

Juno,

You have read my mind.  I was thinking that I will take them here to play and just chill.  As far as change?  Yes but the change depends on what is going on.  If it's family things, then yes, if she wants to act free and single,no and it swings back and forth.  Problem is that M does change ALL THE TIME and they are confused as hell.

Love
Deb
 

[Gabben]

I have and it got into a knock down blow out fight that almost came to fist (very very close).  I walked out.  I had to.  Right smack dab into her children sitting listening to everything.  GMa let them into the house as we were arguing although we were behind closed doors they heard everything.  I would call that a set up. She was trying to shame her D by letting her Ds kids hear. So this went from generation to another generation. Shame, shame, shame all over the place and then I took on some too.  The children hearing it was resolved with help of M that we were just acting like two sister who sometimes fight and no big deal.  They seemed to be alright with that.
 
Her children know I have their backs and even M knows I do, as odd, as it is. But the confrontation will never happen again. 

I have new respect for you.
Lise

[debkor]

Lise,

I will always have her children's back.  I am not afraid of M.  I'm just carefull about how I go about things now.  I have to keep my own emotions in check too.  It can not get as out of control as before.  So I have to remember everything I learned here and talk to myself as I go, guide myself, so things don't explode.  And I don't understand everything nor do I know how to fix it.  I just try to give compassion both ways.  Although my friend acts like a tyrant I have to remember that she is suffering from her own neglect from childhood and yes still today.  So I try to hear everyone and do the best I can.  M demands equal time (as her child).  And I give her the compassion too BUT I really don't know what I'm doing. So I try. 

Love
Deb

[Gabben]

Lise,

I have to keep my own emotions in check too.  It can not get as out of control as before.  So I have to remember everything I learned here and talk to myself as I go, guide myself, so things don't explode.  And I don't understand everything nor do I know how to fix it.  I just try to give compassion both ways. 

And I give her the compassion too BUT I really don't know what I'm doing. So I try. 

Love
Deb

Thanks Deb,

But, at least you try, that is more than most.

 I think that as long as compassion reigns in your heart then no matter what mistakes you might make people always remember your heart.

Good advice here for me too.

Love,
Lise

[debkor]

Lise,

You see, as I am on here just a yaking away, I know I am at path that I have to stop, listen and think.  I was very angry, livid and started to feel another confrontation coming on.  What am I going to do with this?  That is why I came here with it. 

I am sorry if I opened up old wounds.  I really did not think.  That is not what I meant to do.  And I mean if there must be a confrontation then there will be not like before but I won't back down or out and just leave them.  That will never happen. It has nothing to do with my heart it has to do with thiers.  My heart can handle it.  My anger is another story.

Lise, I am sorry I opened up wounds. 


Love
Deb

[Gabben]

Lise, I am sorry I opened up wounds. 

Oh deb -- please don't be sorry that you opened up old wounds...how could anyone in this world operate if we did not speak our hearts and minds.

My wounds are not your fault. For me, I like that old wounds are touched here by what people share (that is part of why I am here) because I can see healing and progress as well as it will help cleanse any tears out that might need to be cleansed from those old wounds. So, if the wounds open up then it only mean more healing for me...that is good. I can handle it. Even if I could not it stil would not be your fault.

Sometimes confrontation is OK and sometimes it is not OK -- just like you say.

Peace,
Lise

[lighter]

Oh  Deb.....

one of the cruelest things we can do to children.....
 
is be alternatively kind and cruel....

for no apparent reason.

These kids are crying out for help....

literally.

I wonder if there's any way to get them into some therapy.....

or is this time with you.....

going to be it?

Breaks my heart to think of those vulernable little eyes seeking you out.....

trying to see if you can see what they see.

Must be glaringly obviouse to them and they wonder.....

can anyone else see it too?

Validating their feelings and giving them information.....

you're a very brave nice person. 

Lighter

[Gaining Strength]

If anyone had intervened in my situation as a child my parents would have certainly cut them out of my life.  If someone, anyone had verified to me what I was experiencing I could have done something with that as I got old enough.  People told me over and over that my mother and father loved me.  THAT was NO help at all because I don't believe that is LOVE. I believe that is someone WANTING to love but not knowing how.  I think telling children that that is love is the WORST  thing that you can do.  Children want to be loved by their mother but when the actions are emotionally abusive and neglectful and someone comes in and says that that is love - nothing could be more confusing  - that is NOT love.

Debkor
I think what you did was (from my experience as a child) the best thing possible.  You supported the child and kept your relationship with the mother in tact so that you can be with the child again in the future.  What a courageous thing you did.

[debkor]

Light,

Therapy I don't know Light.  She does believe in it and she has gone to it with marriage counseling and then for herself a bit after.
Her children have been there too but not often.

So I don't know I guess it's a possibility if she ever SNAPS out of herself.  I doubt it will happen anytime soon though.


Love
Deb