Author Topic: Victim Anger  (Read 4907 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2008, 09:25:03 PM »
Carolyn, hon,
You know I'm thick about faith.
(So I can ask you the dumb questions.)

Quote
Or will I try to patch it up with my own idea of who I am/should be? Or God? Lately I've been desperately wanting to fill it myself... even though I know that going that direction only brings misery.


Didn't God give you yourself? All the wonder and depth and capability and imagination and responsiveness and intelligence and talent that are you? Wouldn't s/he be delighted to see you jump up and down with excitement for the gifts you've been given, and start celebrating those gifts by enjoying them? Including the great freedom you've been given to make these choices?

densely, but with love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Gabben

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2008, 09:31:13 PM »
Dear Hops,

Thank you for the post!

Just to let you know I bought a copy of Roberta Flack and Donny Hathaway's CD with "Come, Ye Disconsolate" on it. I listened to it last night, I was much moved - thank you for that tip!

Lise

Gabben

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2008, 09:32:27 PM »
Carolyn,

I have read your post, I am working on a response to you, I'll post it tomorrow.

Love,
Lise

Hopalong

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2008, 09:48:24 PM »
Lise,
I am truly delighted to have shared that song with you.
Thank you for getting it.

That is a very important song to me.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Certain Hope

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2008, 09:53:46 PM »
Thanks, Lise!  I will watch for it... eagerly. Feels like I'm waking up from a long nap over here.

Love you!


Hops... you are the sweetest agnostic I know and you're welcome to ask me anything, at any time.
Yes, God is delighted when I jump up and down for joy... and He's been supremely patient with me through all of my many detours through the muck of my own faulty decisions and choices. In fact, I do believe that He values my freedom of choice even more than I have, in the past, because He knows that without it, all I'd have is a dead religion, full of rite and rote. The thing is... I've pretty much exhausted my own notions of what it might take to make me fulfilled.
Multiple marriages, multiple children, multiple jobs, multiple hobbies, and multiple addictions - and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
What's left?
In many ways, I'm alot like Peter, as recorded in this bit, from the Gospel of John:
Then Jesus turned to the Twelve and asked, "Are you going to leave, too?"
 Simon Peter replied, "Lord, to whom would we go? You alone have the words of eternal life."



See... it's not that I'm afraid God will get mad at me or punish me if I try to get happiness out of attempts to fulfill myself.
It's that I've been down that dead-end road enough to have finally learned - there is no true joy apart from Him.
Doesn't mean I don't get tempted, though... and lately has been an especially heavy challenge.
So... I do ask myself, what's left? And in my heart, I know the answer is: nothing but the best, if I will only stand.

Love and hugs,
Carolyn




Hopalong

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2008, 10:46:15 PM »
Ummm, can you take him along for the ride?

Doing things that make you happy?

(In addition to worship, I mean.)

xo
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Certain Hope

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2008, 10:58:47 PM »
lol...  why does this feel like looking for a loophole?   :D

But yes, I think so, Hops. Trouble is, much of the stuff I've thought would make me happy has bombed out in a very big way. Honestly and sincerely... I have no reason to trust my own judgment, based on my own track record; there's simply no denying that!

I mean, what feels comfy- cozy to me and seems to give me some sense of security may be nothing more than an old and very destructive habit/thinking rut/whatever.
On the other hand....
washing dishes can make me happy when my heart is in it, for the glory of God.

Hops, I'm miserable when my attitude goes into the pits, and that happens primarily when I allow my thoughts to settle on myself. It's like... letting some feelings out of the bottle for examination can be risky, but I've done just that, rather than letting them simmer and stew. Sometimes it's hard to cork them back up again.
I will try to be more clear another time, with less rambly babble.

Bunches of love,
Carolyn

P.S.  Sorry for the sidetrack, Lise. Thank you for sharing your space!
xox

Gabben

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2008, 07:56:14 PM »
I'm wondering... do you think/feel that you are naturally a loner, Lise?

Not really -- my psychiatrist told me once that I am gregarious in nature and people oriented which is very true. However, just like you said this last round of "self imposed" isolation is due to the trauma I have endured over the last year as well as a reenactment of my childhood neglect at the hands of my mom.


Weekend outings with friends... sounds so healthy and wholesome, dear Lise, and I do hope that you're enjoying these times. You deserve to have some plain old-fashioned fun!! If you want to share, I'd love to hear more about how you're investing that time. Here, I tend to get so bogged down in family stuff and running around that there's not much left of me once that's accomplished. Not that it's bad... just seems to be readily using me up, lately. When stopping to smell the roses has to be added to the to-do-list, I know I'm running on fumes... lol.


My weekend outings have been simple and with a woman I trust. She is my AA sponsor. She is not deeply Christian but she lives an integrable spiritual life. We went this past weekend to get a massage and then to have dinner. In the next few weeks I'll be having friends come to visit me. There is much to do here, live music, museums, cafe's etc. so I am really looking forward to it. Also, my condo is right on the beach so I tend to spend a lot of time walking down the beach on weekends, the air and waves sooth me as well as watching all of the dogs play in the water is fun.

That taking the time to stop and smell the roses is important, but recall, I am single and don't have children, therefore, I have more time then my married friends who are mothers. I have to remind them of this from time to time as they tend to think I am some sort of amazing self-disciplined  woman and the reality is I just don't have any kids, plan and simple.



It's like being a sponge for someone else's crud and it's absolutely consuming. No boundaries... no filters... left bare and vulnerable for whatever flows downhill at us. Yet for most of my life, I thought that's how it was supposed to be! 

This rings so true for me lately has I have been reflecting on the ways I grew up, the messages, the tapes etc.. There was so much that I just absorbed as a child that I did not have to. Lately, I have been in a period of cleansing out these old tapes and garbage, really looking at the anger, fear and the hatred I absorbed and how it warped my thinking and created self-defeating patterns. It seems that the moment I can stare this stuff head on is the moment I start to out grow my old patterns as well as I start to grow emotionally.



Recently my son had a nasty patch of poison oak on his skin, going quite deep. Although it's healing now, the one spot is still quite a pit (on his backside) and will likely leave behind a lifelong scar.

Oh  :cry: -- your poor son, I'll pray for him.

The bad stuff is gone and there's no infection, but what is left behind... wow.   And that's how my heart feels at times.... so the most gigantic challenge is in the daily choice- what's gonna fill that gap?

Carolyn -- the grace of God can feel that gap. When we spend time in prayer thinking about others or offering up warm intentions for people in this world who are suffering as well as the grace that we get from God in simple living and seeking truth fills our holes from when we did not get the love we needed.



"Aren't you further along than THIS, by now?!!??"  Still trying to get that hissing voice to shut up. Along with you, I'm posting that "No Vacancy" sign... and if it falls over, we'll just hammer it a bit deeper into the ground next time, okay?  *sigh*     ..... lol. Did I mention how glad I am that you wrote? I feel better already. Thank you again for thinking of me and jogging me awake... and please know that you're in my prayers always.


I hear your pain - me too. It is as if I made the thread about letting go of hatred and anger a couple of weeks ago, and yes indeed I have made the conscious choice to no longer chew on the anger but to prayer through it as well as to try to unite my thoughts with Christ's thoughts in the way that He would view Nsaint and the those that have hurt me.

Last night I was reflecting on my abortions. I realized that for the past 9 months of my drama with nsaint that I have been a hypocrite. That I have cursed her in my anger and hatred, yes, I have wanted forgiveness and peace as well as I have refused to allow myself any vengeful thoughts, although the hatred was still there. Nsaint wanted me dead, at least socially, but I killed my two children who am I not to forgive someone.
Yes, what Nsaint did was wrong and she could hurt another person, but I still have to cultivate love in my heart for her despite the past. It does not mean that I have to reach out to her or to pity her but instead I can love her the way my children in heaven have loved me.

Always here for you Carolyn.

Lise
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 07:58:40 PM by Gabben »

Certain Hope

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2008, 08:32:31 PM »
Dear Lise,

In case you are still around and reading, I just wanted to thank you - so much! - for writing again. I am absolutely savoring it and will reply in due time.

When you wrote yesterday to say that you were working on a response, that made me so happy...  just to have that to look forward to. To which to look forward?  LOL - o well, who needs perfect grammar  :lol:    Anyhow, just thought I'd follow suit and let you know that I'm pondering as I savor.
After being generally out of touch for some time, it's extra encouraging to be able to manage a more regular communication here... especially with you.

For now, what instantly registered with me is what you've written about hatred for N-saint...
oh, how I know that deep hatred. Just recently, it sprung up so suddenly in me, and with such force... completely out of proportion to all circumstances... to the point that blaming hormones (or the lack thereof) simply didn't do it justice  :?   I didn't let it fly, but - wow, it was a powerful nastiness... and reading your post here this evening, I realized - this is a supernatural hatred. And there's nothing heavenly about it.
So - - you've helped me to recognize that it's certainly time to beef up the armor and cultivate that love you mentioned, especially for those who are unlovely.

Will write again - tomorrow at the latest.

With gratitude and love and hugs,
Carolyn

P.S.  And thank you so much for your prayers for my son. He is much better, but a bit troubled by the depth of those scars. Made quite an impression on him in more ways than one. (((()))))



Gabben

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2008, 08:50:57 PM »
Dear Carolyn,

I wanted to say that the hatred is sometimes our inner child who never got a chance to fully experience her hatred; that inner child in us was "just" a child, meaning that we cannot expect children to be so naturally unhateful as it is their emotional state to react with hatred, especially in the face of ugly abuse.

Allowing myself to feel the hatred I experienced as a child, letting it bubble to the surface, giving my hatred a voice by simply getting it out and saying "I hate her!!" was freeing and helped me to move past that stuborn stuff in my heart as it was mainly just my inner child who, as I said, never got to have her hate filled voice because her anger was shamed.

"Expect To Experience Anger"
It's not wrong to be angry. Paul says, "Be angry, and yet do not sin. . . ." (Eph. 4:26). It's not a sin to be angry, otherwise God would have sinned by becoming angry. But anger can become sinful, if we don't handle it properly and control it.

http://www.biblestudyguide.org/articles/be-angry-and-do-not-sin.htm

With love,
Lise



Hopalong

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2008, 10:49:05 PM »
I'm poking my nose into a deep dialogue, forgive me guys.
But I noticed Carolyn, that you mentioned peace in washing dishes.
And you Lise, mentioned living simply.

I have seen people who are at peace, centered in themselves and their tasks, no big separation between their identity and their action.

I just liked thinking about that as I read your posts.

I am missing that balance right now.

Good reminder.

(As you were...)  :)

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Certain Hope

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2008, 10:04:02 AM »
Dear Carolyn,

I wanted to say that the hatred is sometimes our inner child who never got a chance to fully experience her hatred; that inner child in us was "just" a child, meaning that we cannot expect children to be so naturally unhateful as it is their emotional state to react with hatred, especially in the face of ugly abuse.

Allowing myself to feel the hatred I experienced as a child, letting it bubble to the surface, giving my hatred a voice by simply getting it out and saying "I hate her!!" was freeing and helped me to move past that stuborn stuff in my heart as it was mainly just my inner child who, as I said, never got to have her hate filled voice because her anger was shamed.

"Expect To Experience Anger"
It's not wrong to be angry. Paul says, "Be angry, and yet do not sin. . . ." (Eph. 4:26). It's not a sin to be angry, otherwise God would have sinned by becoming angry. But anger can become sinful, if we don't handle it properly and control it.

http://www.biblestudyguide.org/articles/be-angry-and-do-not-sin.htm

With love,
Lise




Thank you, Lise!  I just read through the Bible study and was especially surprised to notice - for the very first time - that Mark 3:5 reference
about Jesus looking around at them with anger.
 I never saw that part before! 
The Lord was grieved... at the hardness of their heart... and that struck me immediately, as well -
the fact that feeling anger and being grieved go so intimately together.
Just shows that maybe the big problems come into play when we disconnect our anger from the grievance at hand.
He had a legitimate grievance against them, for their unbelief and hard heart... yet Jesus didn't let that sway Him. He simply carried on with His work and restored that man's hand, not stopping to pitch a fit or setting His priorities askew.
This is just the revelation I needed this morning! Gonna sit and chew on it today, expectantly, and see what else comes to light.

And I understand what you've said about the inner child who never got to fully experience her hatred.
I notice you say "experience" - - - not "express".      Wow, there's another revelation.

You've made me realize that I don't remember ever really feeling that sort of anger as a child. Only fear. Lots and lots of fear.
Maybe the anger got so instantly transformed to shame that it went totally unrecognized and morphed instantly into terror? I don't know... but I was scared spitless most of the time and one of the fears that stands out above all is that something would happen to my mother and I would not be able to survive that. She was so thoroughly "over" me.
I didn't receive the sort of abuse that you and many others received. In our home, it was more about control and domination.
Most I can recall is one time feeling extremely mad when I came home at age 12 or so and found that my mother had completely rearranged my bedroom. That felt like a severe violation and I was very angry, but no memories as a younger child of anger.
Ahh, sorry, I'm babbling. It just really shocked me to read you say that it's a child's natural state to react with hatred. That would explain alot though... why the horrible fear of conflict and why the old choice seemed to be, at least for me, between anger and fear.

Lots to think on. Back again later about your other post and I hope you'll have a wonderful day!

Love,
Carolyn

Certain Hope

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2008, 08:24:11 PM »
Dear Lise,

First off, just want to say that I really appreciate this opportunity to get to know you a bit better! Thank you for taking the time to visit with me here and especially to share some more about yourself... and of yourself. This was a hard post for me to sort and write, and if it'd been to anyone else but you, I may have avoided it altogether... but it's definitely time for me to skip the part where I take two steps back after moving forward a bit. So... here goes.

Although I may be more introverted by nature, I do enjoy being with others, as well... at least for limited periods of time. Afterward, though, I do sense a strong pull to retreat and regroup... within the quiet of my own thoughts. Sometimes I'm not sure whether that's good or bad, but it does seem to be a fact of life for me.
Isolation is another story, though.  There were years of that, for various reasons, mainly as I focused on my (non-)relationship with a husband who wouldn't tolerate any disruption to his kingdom. Besides that, 7 years into our marriage, we had to confront him into confessing that he was sexually inappropriate with my oldest daughter. That was just the beginning of another 8 year nightmare through which all the court proceedings and counseling didn't succeed in making him safe to be around children. More isolation... and stigma. And then there was N-ex and an ongoing downward spiral. When that ended in 2003, there was not much left of me. But that is in the past, thank God. Moving right along...

Your simple weekend outings seem lovely, to me. A massage and then dinner... wow, what a treat!  Best part, I think, is having someone you trust with whom to share that time and your AA sponsor sounds like a very special individual. Makes me wish that I'd reached out for help in that way. Haven't had a drink in nearly 3 years, but it was a "cold turkey" decision with me... another of my "loner" steps, held together by paper clips, duct tape, and prayer. Still feels pretty fragile at times... and maybe it always will. But spending time outdoors, with our pets... like you said, watching all of the dogs play in the water - well, that restores and strengthens me (although, the more I think on it, just may have to explore outlets for massage therapy in this podunk town - :D)

You wrote:

This rings so true for me lately has I have been reflecting on the ways I grew up, the messages, the tapes etc.. There was so much that I just absorbed as a child that I did not have to. Lately, I have been in a period of cleansing out these old tapes and garbage, really looking at the anger, fear and the hatred I absorbed and how it warped my thinking and created self-defeating patterns. It seems that the moment I can stare this stuff head on is the moment I start to out grow my old patterns as well as I start to grow emotionally.

Yes, exactly. Same here... and I've been thinking lately that maybe by the time I'm 50, I'll have reached the age of majority. Seriously. Seem to be finally outgrowing the mid-teen years (emotionally) - at last!  And I think - wow, at age12 1/2, my son is experiencing some periodic growing pains in his legs and back. It can get really uncomfortable for him... and I can relate, because the emotional growing pains are no picnic either. Along with that, there's the irony of physical twinges and aches which have nothing to do with youth, but just the opposite. lol... life surely does come around full circle!!

And you wrote:

Carolyn -- the grace of God can feel that gap. When we spend time in prayer thinking about others or offering up warm intentions for people in this world who are suffering as well as the grace that we get from God in simple living and seeking truth fills our holes from when we did not get the love we needed.

I know you're right, Lise.
Thank you. God help me remember.
This is what's kept me going through so many rough times, but I just really needed to hear it again. Simple living - by grace, through faith. More than anything, I want to say, with all assurance, that the old anger and hate will never disturb that simplicity again. Just seems like each time I get to thinking it's licked and done for, there it is again.
Day by day, that's all we can face, I guess.

And finally, I hear you about the need to cultivate love in your heart, even toward N-saint. Reflecting on your abortions in the light of the absolute forgiveness which you've received... well,  it's a beautiful view, dear Lise, and I thank you most for sharing that. I see it as another example of God taking what the devil meant for evil and working it out for good... changing hearts and lives, just as He has worked through you to change me. Without a doubt, I know that our heavenly Father holds our precious ones in His tender hands... yours and mine. With a humble heart, the grieving and mourning and receiving of forgiveness do complete the picture... as with everything else, only by His grace.

I love you, Lise. Thanks for always being there... and for causing me to want to be here, too.

Carolyn

Gabben

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2008, 08:45:01 PM »
Dear Carolyn,

I have just finished reading your post, I wanted to let you that I am very tenderly touched by your words and openness as well as your risk to open yourself up to me. It warms my heart -- you have no idea what a God given blessing you are to me.

For this evening I will take your words home with me, reflecting and praying to see what our Beloved Christ wants for me to write back to you, no doubt it will be from my heart.

Just wanted to validate your post.

I love you too.

Lise

Certain Hope

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Re: Victim Anger
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2008, 09:42:42 PM »
(((((Lise)))))  thank you so much.
I have just been sitting here thinking of how...
in all of my life, so few people have ever treated me with such sweet consideration and appreciation and respect...
and of those, well... in most cases... the price to be paid was far too high.
Words fail me.
Just want to say that you are a rare human being and I'm so very thankful to have encountered you here.
I feel alot less alone these days.

Love,
Carolyn

P.S.  I read your new posts about healing and instantly recognized the truth in all its brilliance. Will try to post to them tomorrow, because I think they're very valid and... important...  and necessary!