Narcissism on the Radio

[Alan]

I found a web site for Narcissists, friends and family.  I will not comment on the site itself.  I received the following information from them. I want to pass it along.  It is not to offend anyone, I believe all information is important.

"Narcissism will be the featured topic of the Infinite Mind Radio Program the week of October 1-8. The show is hosted by Dr. Fred Goodwin, a licensed psychriatrist. Dr. Goodwin is the former Director of the National Institute of Mental Health. Dr. Goodwin firmly believes that NPD is not evil and is a very misunderstood mental illness.

Tony Brown, the Host of the Healing Narcissism community will be one of the guests that will be appearing on the show. Tony will talk about his experience as someone who has been diagnosed with NPD and has worked on healing for 7 1/2 years.

Also appearing on the program will be Dr. Jeffery Young, an expert on personality disorders who believes progress is being made in treating NPD.

The Infinite Mind is heard on Public Radio programs in 210 markets across the United States and Canada. For a directory of stations which carry the Infinite mind program visit http://www.lcmedia.com/stations.htm

Persons living in areas where this program is not heard can listen to the show beginning October 1st via real audio technology at http://www.infinitemind.org/

We will receive a CD of this program approximately two weeks after it airs and will plan on posting it on the Healing NPD support forum and web site.

Please feel free to contact us with questions or comments about accessing this program. This is an excellent opportunity to work with respected professionals in the mental health field and get beyond the misinformation and prejudice currently flooding information sources regarding narcissism and NPD.

Thank you!

Healing Narcissism and Disorders of the Self
web site: http://www.healingnpd.org
support forums: http://frost.bbboy.net/healnpd"

[Living Consciously]

Thank you for posting this link. I will be tuning in to the Real Audio version to hear it for myself.

[CC]

Alan, it should be interesting to listen to.  I will be bolder than you and go ahead and comment on the website you included.  

Though I have not veiwed it in great detail, from the home page I think we can assess that it is a healthy, more objective site that stays away from the hatred that some N sites seem to perpetuate.  Anger is a natural emotion we experience as children and victims of N, however I do agree with the statement that the diagnosis is sometimes overused.  As many of the pros have indicated, there are different degrees of N.  I don't think that hatred is a healthy recovery method and in fact think it weakens a person's sense of taking responsiblity for who we are and what we can be NOW.  

Thanks again for the contribution.

[Discounted Girl]

I have read the page at url:
http://www.healingnpd.org/humanity.html
and I must admit that it has given me cause to pause and think. Yes, it's easy to associate the terms "evil, wicked" with my mother, but I DO try not to. However, being faithful and protective to myself (which I sorely neglected lo these many years) is far more important than trying to feel "humane" towards her. I am very spiritual and I soul search and speak to Jesus daily about this.  I don't think I am supposed to be careless with myself and allow any more abuse to come to me whether or not my mother is treated in a humane manner or whether she gets properly diagnosed, treated or anything else. Cutting off all ties after such abuse is the only solution for me, for the little girl who still suffers -- I am being my own mother and nurturing my ownself. I just studied a picture of me at about 15 mo old -- it brought tears to my eyes, I can see the sadness in that picture.  Before we go all bleeding heart and sympathetic towards our abusers, let's remember this verse:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Mathew 18:15-17

[Acappella]

I second Living Consciously’s  “Thank you Alan” for taking the time to pass on this information!  I will certainly check it out and might easily have missed it otherwise.  

I'll be searching that link and the radio program for clues about how to live with and without those with N traits – either is a struggle for me.  Should be easy to do without but then why the heck am I living with one.    

So much of what i read here on our site, and struggle with myself, is about cutting ties and about how to live with those not yet cut and those that may never be (oh and what constitutes a healthy one anyway?    ).  At the risk of sounding corny, one thing I am getting very clear about is that understanding is a key.  So, thanks for passing on a source for more potential pieces of the puzzle.

I'll come back to this thread after listening to the program next week.

P.S. CC and Discounted Girl, I got the feeling that you are both speaking to the balance or lack there of between love and hate, understanding/compassion and indifference/malevolence.  How, when, where and why to strike a balance or/& acknowledge being driven to extremes?  When to brave seeing the world/a world from their viewpoint?  How not to loose myself in their reflection when I only stepped into that pool for a brief moment to gain some understanding?  How not to get swept away in the undertow?   It is a sort of slippery slope for me.  I could go on at length here but since the topic is the radio program I’ll stick to that here except to say:

Discounted Girl
It is such a waste!  Your 15-month-old self, just waiting for proper nourishment to boom.  For that my heart bleeds a little and I am, albeit painfully, proud that to have the luxury, at this moment, that some others do not and that I do not always have myself to feel, for even a moment, that loss and pain and thereby the value of life, yours and mine, the quality not just quantity.    

In a way she is standing there in that picture still waiting, suspended in time until someone like you, who knows AND feels the value of what was lost, her, your value to come along and release her.  And, if we don't mourn and feel the losses of childhood how can we know the true value of what we are reviving in ourselves and protecting one another and future generations from? That is the gift of having a heart that bleeds.

And as you point out, it is that hemorrhaging we have look out for!  Arrrrrrg.   One way is to cut ties.  I did with my “mom” for decades and I am back in contact now and very glad I cut those ties and very glad I am in contact again. Given the circumstances, social and personal, I am both sad and comfortable saying I’d do it the same way again.  She was and is not the embodiment of evil and yet her behavior had the ability to wreak an evil havoc with my life.  (still does but just briefly and not so deeply either).

In terms of how to respond I don't understand what is meant by “a Gentile and a tax collector “ -is that to say there is a price to pay for having a society, a collective in which we do not always agree and at least one can find solace in others with whom we enjoy support?  

And CC, if I recall you are still living, as am I, with a husband with N traits?  Isn't that close enough I ask myself?  Besides isn’t our caring part of what they devour?  Do I spend too much time trying to understand him and survive him at the expense of, oh lets see...hmmm, perhaps that career post/conversation?  (as CC knows, I posted a topic about employment –I just vented for the first post so it may be hard to tell but it is intended to be a place to talk and focus on ourselves especially regarding work/career).  Ok, CC I am going back that way, really any minute.

P.S.S.  One of these days I may get around to posting something along the lines of  “Give and Take: Sharing the Seas with Pirates” regarding the whole thing of how do we live with them as flesh and blood or as ghostly creatures?  How do we not become villainous fighting villains?  When are we sympathetic vs. when are we pathetic?  (or I'll look for other posts about that).  Balance takes a lot of coordination.  Ok I am straying from this radio post.  See ya here in Oct.

[CC]

Dear Echo..

I am always intrigued with your muses and positive feedback.. Indeed you are often so deep in your thoughts that I have to reread what you have written to truly understand what you are conveying -  it is always profound, caring and thoughtful.

I thought your comments to Discounted Girl were well put.

To refresh your memory, thankfully I am not living with an N husband (though sometimes he teeters on the border   )  However, my elderly mother is in the same town and it is with her that I struggle constantly.  Interesting that you remembered it differently.. makes me think I am so entwined with her that others may view it as a live-in situation...  Anyway, I felt the need to clarify my position as it pertains to the website that Alan included as it may have been misconstrued.

I don't believe that associating the words EVIL or  HATE  is necessary nor accurate for the condition which exists between us or the narcissists in our lives themselves.  I think that EVIL is associated with religious beliefs.. and though I am of Christian background, I tend to look at the narcissistic condition as an emotional or even mental illness.. one which requires us as victims to A) protect ourselves from future abuse and B) to display compassion or understanding as to why it has happened.  I do not view narcissism as the DEVIL or anything quite as labeling.  

That is not to say that I don't entertain spiritual involvement in my healing and additionally I welcome biblical references that seem pertinent.

My main point in the previous post was to convey that there are some websites and "victims" of narcissistic families that tend focus on blaming, condemning the 'EVIL' spirit of the narcissist... it seems almost as if too much energy is spent being angry at the narcissists, labeling them with all sorts of devilish names and wallowing in childhood anger.. unlike this website and some others, which are genuinely safe places for us to express our anger and inner child hurts while we learn how to move FORWARD and take responsibility for ourselves in the present life.. without HATING our Ns.  There are some radicals who take this even a step further to proclaim that narcissists are the devil.

At the risk of being pelted with rocks and garbage,  I do not believe that narcissists are consciously evil.  Studies, books have argued that narcissists are in pain, and they have their disorder as a result of their own negative experiences.  Though they are responsible for their actions as an adult, I believe they may not be conscious of hurting others.  I believe this because I have my own narcissistic tendencies.. and only in my healing have come to realize this.  I have moments of clarity, guilt, and overwhelming sadness that I might have actually caused someone else pain at the expense of my N-legacy.  I consider myself lucky, however, that I am able to recognize it... where my mother and sister are not.

I am overall a kind, caring and loving person.. who unfortunately sometimes engages in unconscious narcissistic behavior that has or can hurt people close to me.  I am learning to recognize it and try to change it.

Am I the Devil??    Am I evil?   Some may think so, but I think not.  I never consciously wanted to ever hurt another human being.  I don't think my mother did either.  That doesn't mean I'm not angry with her, or that I shouldn't distance myself.  It just means I don't think she's the devil.

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that healing is healthier when it includes compassion for those who have hurt us. Everybody wins. That is not synonymous with accepting abuse or even continuing a relationship, if it is not possible.

P.S. Want to share some proactive behaviors I learned in a book recently.  Working really well but will post separately.

[Discounted Girl]

ECHO -- You are so very very insightful and I very much enjoy reading your posts, and CC's and everyone's .... I can only take so much at a time though -- somehow it drains my energy to feel all this. However, if you have not published, you certainly should.

It has occurred to me more than once while reading these posts (without any personal thoughts of grandeur (LOL) that persons who are aware of their suffering from Nrelationships have to be very sensitive and (I believe) intelligent. I think those who get by day-to-day in a superficial, shallow existence don't know or want to know, nor care if they have been abused. I don't know; however, I will tell you that I feel some sort of relief in being able to finally "label" what was going on between my mother and me, or her at me. It's all so very complicated, but yet, sometimes gathering information and garnering understanding simplifies it. You know, I used to pray for a simple mind -- I would fantasize that a giant hand would reach into my mind and pull out all the hurt, that I would not remember the nasty things she did and said to me, that all that data of torment stored in there would disappear, but it never happened. Now, it is better though, after reading all these posts.  Anyhow, I digress again -- stick to the thread -- it's hard isn't it ?

Well, ECHO, in the part of your post referring to me (thank you), I want to say that the little sad faced baby in the picture needed/needs a nurturing mother so very badly (I am always amazed at how long it took me to figure that out) that I feel I have to go through certain steps to give that to her/me (starting to sound like a wacko here), and, as you said, through that feeling of loss and pain I can feel the "value of life, yours and mine, the quality not just quantity."

Briefly, I will address the verse of scripture I posted.  I searched for guidance on how to "forgive" and "move on" and decided that it is not my place to "forgive" -- that's not my job and I am not pompous enough to think it is.  Anyhow, I was so torn between how I should feel, that nagging guilt down inside that said I should overlook, be more open-hearted, be more "detached," have a meaningless relationship with her -- I came upon this verse and I think it explains (at least for me) that cutting all ties with my mother is the only route for my sanity.

I think the reference to "brother" means someone very close as opposed to an acquaintance, so in this case it is my mother. She has refused to stop abusing me and I cannot take it any longer. I think in New Testament Biblical times to be referred to as a "Gentile and a tax collector" meant to shun them and not have them as part of your life. At least that is what I think it means. A pastor pointed this verse out to me as a way of quieting the voice down in my gut that said "a good person respects and obeys their parents no matter what."

[CC]

Dear Discounted,

Thank you for clarifying your previous post.  I identified tremendously with everything you said, particularly:

persons who are aware of their suffering from Nrelationships have to be very sensitive and (I believe) intelligent. I think those who get by day-to-day in a superficial, shallow existence don't know or want to know, nor care if they have been abused.

My best friend, God love her, was raised by a classic, RAGING narcissist, far "worse" in degree than my mom.. and a father who was a terrible enabler. Yet because my friend is a simple, uncomplicated and psychologically unaware girl, she uses words to describe her mother as "mean sometimes" and "hard to get along with".  The reason she is such a good friend is because she is a wonderful listener, and has a truly genuine kind heart.  It is hard to sit back and watch over the years her tell me the stories of abuse that went on with her mom, and occasionally still does.

We have had many discussions about what I have been going through, and indeed.. she cannot relate.  I have even suggested books to her, but  she is less sensitive than I and just doesn't get the depth of what's going on and how it affects her marriage.  She complains about her 2nd husband being lazy and self-centered but says things like "at least he's not physically abusive" (as her first husband was, she only stayed with him for 10 months) but she doesn't see the connection.  And with her, because I know her so well, I really just think she doesn't have the capacity to understand.  I don't push the issue - just try to be there when she is having a bad time. Perhaps ignorance is bliss  

Anyway, I have successfully completely gone off the thread subject    - yes, DG it is hard not to.

That image of you as a baby is very appropriate for healing - you do not sound wacko at all.  I am amazed at your ability to relate to this without therapy.  It took a therapist to lead me to my inner child and I am still learning how to nurture her.  And interesting the reference to the giant hand... This is precisely what image I used in therapy sessions to assist me..  I have visualized God's giant hand taking away my hurt..  You are sooo perceptive to being doing this work without assistance.

Little did Alan know that he would be opening a can of worms with his brief post about a broadcast   sorry Alan  still looking forward to hearing that radio program as it pertains to all this.

[Alan]

I would love to leave a long post here, but, I do not have time this morning.

I too am looking forward to the radio broadcast.  It'll be interesting as to what really is said and admitted to.  Ns have a tendancy to down play the pain they have cost people in their lives.

In regard to hate and evil.  Those victims of Ns who espouse hatred towards them need our empathy.  Most of these folks feel their lives have been "raped" by this illness and haven't the means to cope yet.  I have the means and at times "hate" is part of my vocabulary.  

I can say I "hate" my former N, for all the problems, lies, money lost.  My life has changed bec of this illiness.  And unless I wanted to live in a situation that wasn't spiritually healthy, I didn't ask for this.

But in the end, they and I all know that they are ill and hate can't be used here.  Consider it a handy word to use.  People recover at different speeds.

[Acappella]

Alan, perhaps I shouldn't have time for my long posts either  ...for now I am spending a lot of time here....I figure I need to and for the millisecond can sort of afford to...it is costing me and yet I feel it is healthy and for now worth the price - that is until I can't pay my internet connection, rent etc. (oh the fear and guilt!) For now, I am letting myself immerse here amidst your voices a while.  I am so glad you are all here when you can make it and glad to hear you have other activities too! I am getting there.

Discounted Girl: Like CC, I too appreciate/welcome the Biblical references.  Though I am not religious I believe there is great wisdom in them and how you apply it to life today.  

As for that “wacko” comment.  Aren’t you in that group you refer to as “persons who are aware of their suffering from Nrelationships have to be very sensitive and (I believe) intelligent? “?  Grandeur exclusion acknowledged! I believe your sensitivity is part of what is called Emotional Intelligence, or EQ.  (Harvard is just now catching up, one of their guys coined that phrase).  Millions of bras were burned in the 60’s, then Maddona made millions baring hers …well at least garments can claim to be being liberated!     How long will it take for those emotions once deemed, “Woman’s work”, exclusive property of the "weaker" sex to hit pay dirt and guys be allowed to cry, raise kids and change their mind or at least finally admit to it   ? Topics converge and I diverge....

Anyway, CC: woops, sorry about the N-hubby thing.  I don’t imagine you as co-habituating with your mom…though isn't hard to evict them from the rooms they rent in our head/s?  I also for a moment confused Alan with Nic earlier today and nearly congratulated Alan on his parents moving away.  My mistakes have more to do with not having faces to put with the names on this site! New to foruming.  Oh yeah and then there is my shrinking aging brain!  

Likely my mistake, in your case CC , also has to do with my liking that you are at a place in your life where you can see the N-traits in yourself at least allow for that possibility (I know I share N values if not traits with J. aka husband with N traits) and you’re not villainizing the N thing (see no rocks or garbage! appreciation even!)  

AND I TRULY ALSO DO UNDERSTAND THE NEED TO VENT AND i DON'T INTEND TO SUGGEST ANYONE SHOULDN'T DO THAT HERE.  THIS IS AN EXCELLENT PLACE, IF NOT THE PLACE FOR IT.  I TO HAVE EXCLAIMED, “HATE” ETC, AND HAVE DONE SO, AND MAY AGAIN.  As untidy as it is it may very well be a necessary part of healing. I am glad when I am healed enough to feel it is the phenomenon I hate and not the person.  

Anyway CC, I likely put an N-hubby in your house because I like the perspective you have and thought we could chat about the N-hubby struggle. But that’s ok, we can chat anyway.     Again another post topic?  How to care for, love even, a narcissist (in or out of the house, spouse or family member) without being their Echo…lots there to explore.   And I look forward to those “proactive” things you mentioned passing along.

Thank you for your acknowledgements CC and Discounted Girl.  My inner critic (trained in foster homes, a messed up family and via years of missed schooling) went wild with your complements but I’ll mention that in the Voicefullness Employed thread (relates to shame too – all topics converge!  Arrg. ) For now, I’ll just stand here and take the complements, like a man as they say.  How about I’ll take it like a human being?  Hmmmm. Change is always so awkward!

P.S. I do spend a lot of time, hours, reading and writing responses.  It isn’t like I just come up with this stuff.  It is work and yet I enjoy it.   Just so happens I do need a job and still I can’t imagine what I have to say being of much value – enough to be published anyway.