What we've learned from recent board strife:

[lighter]

Board conflict teaches us lessons about communicating.

This is a recent board theme, and a good one.

I've been amazed at some of the clear voices, shining light, without adding to the confusion.

I want that ability.... for myself. 

For us all.

Truly.... CB.... brava.

And yet.... newcomers will be braving their way onto this forum soon....

in varying states of pain and vulnerability.

How will they be received?

One of the lessons I learned recently, is that they shouldn't be pawns, in a sly relational aggression ploy. 




I think it should be very clear:

Newcomers should be entitled to land as softly as possible.....

without being approached in their PM boxes....

subjected to slander...

flattered....

and....

groomed for confict by any boardmembers.

That's one of the main messages, I received.

If I'm wrong..... let me know.

::putting wood on a low burning fire for Catspaw and tt.... for all of us, still learning::



Lighter[/b]

[Leah]

But, the odd thing is though ...

that during my life long experience of learning good communication skills

they were most certainly NOT learned via conflict !!


And, I really do value and appreciate that of which the professionals i.e. the Psychologists have to say ..........

Stress and conflict are a normal part of life, and healthy behaviour involves the ability to cope and adapt.

 Psychologists make a distinction between  --   behaviour that successfully defends and copes  --  and behaviour that fails to adapt and resolve conflict.

Love to ALL

Leah

[lighter]

I don't know Leah.

I tend to meet the needs of others at the expense of my own.

If I people please, bc that's habit and my nature.... I appear to have good communication skills, but do I?

I haven't learned to set boundaries, outline my needs and explain my expectations for having them met.

It took conflict to identify those pieces of the puzzle.

I could listen, but I wasn't being heard, partly bc I lacked those skills.

Then there was the lesson of speaking with empathy, relating my needs and having them dismissed.

I had to learn to deal with that.... as I'm sure we all have in some context.

I wouldn't have learned all this without conflict.

Lighter

[Leah]

Hi Lighter,

So, in essence then, this thread is your personal "what I have learned through the recent strife"

and not a repeat / regurgitation of what has already been said over on the "Healthy Community" thread.


Personally, I have learned in real terms as to what Conflict really is all about.   And value what the professional Psychologists say, as I have fully posted toward the end of "Healthy Community" thread.

Love, Leah


Conflict is a state of opposition, disagreement or incompatibility between two or more people or groups of people.

Conflict as taught for graduate and professional work in conflict resolution commonly has the definition: “when two or more parties, with perceived incompatible goals, seek to undermine each other’s goal-seeking capability”.

One should not confuse the distinction between the presence and absence of conflict with the difference between competition and co-operation. In competitive situations, the two or more parties each have mutually inconsistent goals, so that when either party tries to reach their goal it will undermine the attempts of the other to reach theirs. Therefore, competitive situations will by their nature cause conflict. However, conflict can also occur in cooperative situations, in which two or more parties have consistent goals, because the manner in which one party tries to reach their goal can still undermine the other.

A clash of interests, values, actions or directions often sparks a conflict.

Conflicts refer to the existence of that clash. Psychologically, a conflict exists when the reduction of one motivating stimulus involves an increase in another, so that a new adjustment is demanded. The word is applicable from the instant that the clash occurs. Even when we say that there is a potential conflict we are implying that there is already a conflict of direction even though a clash may not yet have occurred.

Stress and conflict are a normal part of life, and healthy behaviour involves the ability to cope and adapt.


Psychologists make a distinction between   --  behaviour that successfully defends and copes   --  and behaviour that fails to adapt and resolve conflict.

[lighter]

Oh yes, Leah.

Recent conflict, and older conflicts, have all been necessary to figure out:

What conflict is.

I've spent my life avoiding it so, I've had to learn how acknowledge and address it.  I never learned how.

How conflict escalates and evolves, esp if one party is gaslighting and scapegoating, has been a huge lesson in my life, necessary for self preservation.

Discussing the above is difficult, even when we're discussing it with people who've experienced gaslighting and scapegoating. I'm afraid I'm still in shock from recent, non board events and so.... this isn't easy for me.

Learning how to do that, is an ongoing survival skill.

It continues to go in and out of focus, even as I write this.

I haven't internalized it and I need to.

 I tend to feel responsible for everything that goes wrong.

I tend to take responsibility for fixing everything k, if I can just try hard enough, be nice enough, be giving enough, pretty enough hard working enough... you know the drill.

It hasn't served me well...... esp since dismissing my needs has always been the solution for conflicts I can't possibly resolve.

There's always OUR PART in any conflict.

Figuring that out, has been very difficult, esp in the midts of assigning motive and big blustering accusations.

The board isn't about problems, for me.

It's about conflict and resolution.... or conflict without resolution.  

Either way, we do our best then learn to move on, hopefull improving as we go.

The last line of your post said it for me:

"Psychologists make a distinction between   --  behaviour that successfully defends and copes   --  and behaviour that fails to adapt and resolve conflict."

BIG.

I know this is confusing and I can't shut up but..... I really need the skills we're working on here.

This topic remains very confusing and difficult to break down for me.

Should it appear I'm learning at a very slow pace, I am.

Lighter

[CB123]

Okay.

I'm going to get back to what Lighter is asking about but first I'm going to say this:


So, in essence then, this thread is your personal "what I have learned through the recent strife"

and not a repeat / regurgitation of what has already been said over on the "Healthy Community" thread.



I am not part of your "we" or your "us"

you do not speak for me


This is uncalled for.  There is absolutely no reason at all to respond to another member's post like this.  Lighter is asking a question.  You may not think the question is appropriate.  You may not have a good answer.  Then don't post.  Period.

Sheesh.



Lighter, here's what I think about newbies and protecting them:

You can't. 

I know that a lot of my anguish in past conflicts has been my concern about newbies. I was a newbie once, and feeling very vulnerable and tentative.  I remember that feeling well, and I also know that I would have run like hell if the board had been as conflicted as it has been this week.  And I add to that, the fact that I have been so very blessed by the interaction on this board and I hate to think that someone who is hurting would be driven away by what they see here.

But, part of healing from where we have been is  learning to discern about situations.  A newbie who gets an inappropriate PM is being offered the same opportunity that we all are--to discern, to allow themselves to get sucked in or not.  The reason we are here is that we have all been sucked into stuff and we are ready to change that dynamic.  A newbie who is ready to change, is ready to change.  Sometimes it takes one more trip around the barn, though, and the board sure offers that opportunity too!

What you are wrestling with when you ask this question, is still part of your boundary work.  Part of boundary work is outlining your own needs and expectations--the flip side is letting someone else outline theirs.  It's hard when you see someone else's boundaries getting blurred (it always seems so clear from the outside!  ), and you want to step in and help or protect.

Of course, newbies should be allowed to land as softly as possible.  And you should have been allowed to grow and blossom in a loving marriage.  And I should have been allowed to grow old with the man I married, our children surrounding us.  And Ami should have been allowed to be nurtured and encouraged by an unselfish mother.  And Hops should have been allowed to grow old in the home she cared for her mother in. 

But we know life isnt really like that.  And newbies are going to crash land on this deck.  Some will stick it out, some won't.  At this point in the board's life, they probably would be healthier NOT to stick it out.  It hurts to see that happen exactly the way it hurts to hear Ami's story, or yours, or Hops'.

This is the most bitter pill I have had to swallow: 

Sometimes I am the perpetrator.  Sometimes I am the one who hurts someone and makes their life harder.  Sometimes I'm the one who says the wrong thing at the wrong time.  (I am using "I", Besee, since I can't speak for you -- but trust me, being the perpetrator is interchangeable with being the victim.  We all are both at one time or another.)  No, I'm not an N.  But I think we have learned this week that N's don't corner the market on the ability to hurt deeply. 

My hardest won lesson in boundary work is trusting that the other person is strong enough to weather the storm that I want so desperately to protect them from.     It is a form of respect to allow them to bump and fall and pick themselves up--believing they can do it, believing that they have the inner strength and determination to not fold.  So much of my protection of myself and my supposed protection of others is about my fear that we are too weak to withstand the onslaught and wanting the perpetrator to do the protecting so I/we won't fall.  That isnt going to happen.

Newbies deserve a smooth entrance into this forum.  But this is a forum of damaged people.  We are still working through our defective coping mechanisms.  Somewhere along the way in our lives, some people have picked up the coping mechanism that operates best in PM land.  Until they have some compelling reason to do so (and this is common to all of us), they will be too locked into that coping mechanism to even see what they are doing.  And unsuspecting newbies (and oldbies!) will be scorched in the process.  That's what I mean about being a perpetrator.  And that stinks.

Not a very bright answer to your quesion, huh Lighter?  The only bright part about it is how one chooses to look at the process.  Yes, newbies are going to get body-slammed on this board.  But they are on a journey--just as we are--and the journey continues despite the body-slam.  The road stretches on, no matter how many times we fall down.  And only we decide to continue picking ourselves up and keep walking. 

Much love, Lighter,
CB

 

[lighter]

Duly noted, besee.




Leah.... I forgot to say.....

I'm still working on stating boundaries and needs.

If doing that causes conflict... I'm not comfortable shutting down.

I'm very uncomfortable with your question:  "So, in essence then, this thread is your personal "what I have learned through the recent strife"

and not a repeat / regurgitation of what has already been said over on the "Healthy Community" thread."

I don't want to repeat that thread.

I want resolution.

Lighter

 

[Leah]

Conflict as taught for graduate and professional work in conflict resolution commonly has the definition: “when two or more parties, with perceived incompatible goals, seek to undermine each other’s goal-seeking capability ”.

One should not confuse the distinction between the presence and absence of conflict with the difference between competition and co-operation.

In competitive situations, the two or more parties each have mutually inconsistent goals, so that when either party tries to reach their goal it will undermine the attempts of the other to reach theirs. Therefore, competitive situations will by their nature cause conflict.

However, conflict can also occur in cooperative situations, in which two or more parties have consistent goals, because the manner in which one party tries to reach their goal can still undermine the other.

A clash of interests, values, actions or directions often sparks a conflict.

Conflicts refer to the existence of that clash.


So, basically, in a nutshell, someone feels that there nose is being pushed out of the picture -- and kicks off with a clash.

Simply because, the person lacks a healthy balance and outlook upon life with a wide view -- thereby, not allowing another to simply get on with whatever is relative and pertinent to themself.

Then the rot of "Relational Aggression" sets in like a worm.


No amount of communication skills can resolve the root cause of the existence of the clash -- the solution resides within the person or persons themselves.

Love, Leah

[Leah]

Okay.

I'm going to get back to what Lighter is asking about but first I'm going to say this:


So, in essence then, this thread is your personal "what I have learned through the recent strife"

and not a repeat / regurgitation of what has already been said over on the "Healthy Community" thread.



I am not part of your "we" or your "us"

you do not speak for me

This is uncalled for.  There is absolutely no reason at all to respond to another member's post like this.  Lighter is asking a question.  You may not think the question is appropriate.  You may not have a good answer.  Then don't post.  Period.

Sheesh.

CB

Lighter and I are simply communicating here, CB

A text taken out of context is a pretext.


I did say what I had personally learned ......... and in total context thereof:


Hi Lighter,

So, in essence then, this thread is your personal "what I have learned through the recent strife"

and not a repeat / regurgitation of what has already been said over on the "Healthy Community" thread.


Personally, I have learned in real terms as to what Conflict really is all about.   And value what the professional Psychologists say, as I have fully posted toward the end of "Healthy Community" thread.

Love, Leah

[lighter]

OK, CB.


I can wrap my mind around not being able to protect other people, only myself.

Which blurrs into the ongoing pm slander against me.

Am I entitled to have and state protective boundaries?

I understand that I may not receive but....

don't ask, don't get.

I have to learn how to ask, yes?

Lighter

[lighter]

OK, Leah.... I've read your response, below, 3 times and it's not clear what you're saying here.

Can you help me understand?

Thanks, Lighter

[
So, basically, in a nutshell, someone feels that there nose is being pushed out of the picture -- and kicks off with a clash.

Simply because, the person lacks a healthy balance and outlook upon life with a wide view -- thereby, not allowing another to simply get on with whatever is relative and pertinent to themself.

Then the rot of "Relational Aggression" sets in like a worm.


No amount of communication skills can resolve the root cause of the existence of the clash -- the solution resides within the person or persons themselves.

Love, Leah

[Leah]

Hi Lighter,

very quickly as I am on my way out shortly,

I really do think you ought to read my response in total context of the article extract that sits above it.

because, my words spoken, which are my own thoughts on the subject, are in context with the article extract in its entirety.


Do hope that helps.

Love, Leah


edit:  typo error.

[lighter]

Sorry, Leah.

It doesn't make sense, to me.

I appreciate that you think it does.

Lighter

[CB123]

Am I entitled to have and state protective boundaries?

Of course.  Understanding that no one has to abide by stated boundaries (perpetrators seldom do), and that the real strength of boundaries has to do with what happens next.

It helps to understand the difference between internal boundaries and external boundaries.  When you are dealing with activity in PM land, there is absolutely no external boundary you can set for behavior that happens somewhere else.  That's why it is happening somewhere else.  If someone wants to skirt your personal boundaries, they will very rarely do it in your face (the exception is some N's and that is usually because they have learned they can get away with it).

So then you have to work on internal boundaries.  Those are the ones you set up that do not let in the stuff that comes flying from someone else's fear and pain.  You maintain those by continuing to see them as someone else's fear and pain--something you can't fix and shouldnt try to.  A lot of this is about letting someone else just be.  You don't have to let their stuff inside your head.  It's their stuff.  

See the other person as another human being with their own sleepless, panicky nights.  The operative word is ANOTHER.  Not you.  If someone thinks that you are impersonating a dead member of the board, and you know you are not, you don't have to get all shakey-kneed trying to figure out how to convince them that you aren't.  (Of course, you will get shakey-kneed.  But you don't have to.)

There is a deep fear that is behind that thought of impersonation.  But that is someone else's fear.  Setting a boundary means always keeping that uppermost in your mind, and allowing the other person to work out that fear.  A fear that deep is going to be messy as it is dealt with and you may be in the line of fire.  You have to decide what is best for you--take a break, remove yourself from the line of fire, engage with the fear from a safe place of your own, let someone else help, let the person muddle around on their own.  The conscious decision you make is part of the boundary-setting.  

If the work that is being done on that fear is done in PM land, so be it.  You can't really control what goes on in someone else's head or comes out of someone else's mouth.  

If the work is being done on the board, you can defend yourself from accusations, but you don't have to.  You can refuse to accept rude or abusive treatment.  You can also work through your own issues, triggered by what is going on and you dont have to do it perfectly.  You can make mistakes and work your way through it and come to a greater understanding of yourself.  

You can post and post and post and post and post.  Everyone here has done it.  Everyone has said the same thing over and over and over again, trying to get to the bottom of where they are.  You can, too.

If you need to.  You don't have to.

Sometimes journalling helps.  That can be the best way to get everything out where you can see it and really get to the bottom of things.  There is absolutely no way you can write on the board and not edit yourself.  Editing yourself means writing what you think will be acceptable to those who are reading.  Right now, you have a lot of critical readers.  You are going to edit yourself to the point that nothing is accomplished.  

You are going through some very tough stuff right now, Lighter.  What you really need is a soft place to land.  I wish it was, but this board is not going to give you that right now.  Too many hurting puppies at the same time.  What I see happening is that many of the people who could help you work this out are themselves depleted by the emotional vortex that exists here right now.  I know there are many, many wise women on this board that could talk you through this, but they may have to do their own boundary work for a bit.  If that leaves only people who are themselves in deep pain, or have poor boundaries, you may be triggered even more.

Don't get discouraged.  Ask yourself what you need to do right at this moment.  Lots and lots of journalling.  Lots.  

Sleep.  You were posting all night last night.  Sleep is really important.  I know exactly what it feels like to struggle with things so deeply that sleep will not come.  But you do need it and you can only make minimal progress on what you are working on if you don't have it.  

Much love,
CB

[Certain Hope]

Lighter, here's what I think about newbies and protecting them:

You can't. 

But, part of healing from where we have been is  learning to discern about situations.  A newbie who gets an inappropriate PM is being offered the same opportunity that we all are--to discern, to allow themselves to get sucked in or not.  The reason we are here is that we have all been sucked into stuff and we are ready to change that dynamic.  A newbie who is ready to change, is ready to change.  Sometimes it takes one more trip around the barn, though, and the board sure offers that opportunity too!

What you are wrestling with when you ask this question, is still part of your boundary work.  Part of boundary work is outlining your own needs and expectations--the flip side is letting someone else outline theirs.  It's hard when you see someone else's boundaries getting blurred (it always seems so clear from the outside!  ), and you want to step in and help or protect.

I agree with CB, Lighter.

Most people are fair-minded, I believe.
Most, not all.
Most people recognize that there are always two sides to any story.
For those who don't, and aren't ready to see that, there may well be some slippery slopes ahead.
But you - or I - don't have to join them on that downward slide.

Knowing where my own business lies will pretty effectively keep me out of the muck, I think...
and I believe it's the same for you. There can be snipers in any environment, but all that any one of us can deal with is our own choices and actions.

Love,
Carolyn