Counter Control

[Certain Hope]

The Key to Counter-Control         http://www.obgyn.net/young-woman/young-woman.asp?page=/yw/articles/Romeopart6


If you possess a strong sense of responsibility, Controllers will use it against you. Understanding how to prevent a Controller from manipulating your conscience is key in learning how to "counter - control." Moral integrity is one of the finest assets a person can possess, but it can attract a Controller the way a "hot target" attracts a cruise missile. When dealing with a Controller, conscientiousness can be your Achilles’ Heel.

Integrity and conscientiousness remind Controllers of their most profound character flaw. They hate being reminded of what they do not have. They hate those qualities in others because Controllers cannot possess them. That is one reason that they are attracted to integrity. But their attraction is rooted in a desire to dominate or destroy. They must manipulate, rule or emotionally and psychologically annihilate anyone whose soundness of character reminds them of their own profoundly egotistical, selfish and empty natures.

All effective counter-control is rooted in understanding how a Controller manipulates someone’s conscience and uses it against him or her. But the great trick to discovering how to effect practical counter-control is in knowing how to overcome a Controller’s amorally motivated drive to control, without turning into a Controller yourself.

[Gabben]

Wow Carolyn, thanks,

That was right on spot for me in the moment. Especially because I tend to doubt myself.

Did you know that I lashed out at N-Saint via email? I told her that I wished that we could come together and resolve our difficulties in peace. But, I also told her that I did not think that she was capable of love...that was my bad. I was angry and pushed over the edge after months of her covert aggression and slander. In the email I asked her to stop gossiping about me. She never responded to me. Instead she tweaked my email and showed it to my parish, fiegning victimhood.

There is an article which I found recently that talks about how the Narcissist and the Psychopath can turn credibility around so fast it can make heads spin and doing exactly that is what N's love to do, ruining others strong character in the eyes of others - It really is a form of stealing.



http://www.churchcorporate.com/Psychopaths.html


My pastor was saying Mass when he looked at me during the prayer intentions, offering up a prayer saying "may we always act with integrity or authenticity." I knew he was speaking to me...NO I was not paranoid. It was real and it was a highly sophisticated form of relational aggression. Now, my authenticity and integrity are some of my strongest qualities...the two things that I have had to fight hard for and to work hard for..pushing through fear with faith to be courageous. It was like a kick in the stomach to have my own pastor, who I know knew who Nsaint was, doubt me.


Here is a quote from Kathy's http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/narcissistic_projection.htm:
Finger-pointers do the same thing. They direct people's attention (critical attention, negative attention) away from themselves and what they're doing by accusing someone else of doing the same, or essentially the same, thing. Thus they make themselves seem like people who never would dream of doing such a thing themselves — while in the very act of doing it.

It was painful...ouch. The controller is genuinely trying to take reality, twisting it to meet their own definition of reality.

Lise

[Certain Hope]

Me, too, Lise... even when I'm quite secure in some bit of knowledge, the self-doubt can creep in.

Sounds like when you emailed her before, you'd already answered.... or countered.... your own logic, right there within one email.
I've done the same thing and then wondered... why would I be hoping or expecting to be able to resolve differences with someone who's shown a consistent pattern of being unable to genuinely love or be honest?!  Makes no sense.

I guess the thing to do is to learn how to extend the edge... so that we don't approach it (or topple over it) so easily?
Takes practice, and lots of it.
I do think that everyone has an "edge", though. Nobody's immune... including pastors.

Lise, is there another link to that article? I'd like to read it, but got one of those file 404 error thingies.
Even tried pasting it into a new browser.

My ex husband was a master manipulator. After just a few years with him, I can pretty readily spot the pointing of a finger in a false direction.
I wish it didn't happen so often, but it's everywhere... blame shifting and projection.
About that... I guess it's all the more reason to choose our battles wisely.
Not too many hills I'm willing to bleed on anymore. Not too many at all.

Thanks for responding, Lise. It's always good to visit with you.

Love,
Carolyn

[Gabben]

I could not find another path to the article that works so I just copied part of it here:

Psychopaths
Psychopaths are predators.

People who fall prey to psychopaths are always damaged.

It may take a very long time to recover.

It is worth taking a little time to learn who and what they are to avoid the pain.


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Psychopaths are not understood by people who are relatively reasonable and responsible citizens because most do not have a view that a psychopath is that much different from themselves or other people they know. Psychopaths catch people unaware because most people are not out seeking to harm others as are psychopaths. Most people do not understand the damage that psychopaths do to others; most people have grave difficulty understanding what happened to them and why after they encounter a psychopath who damages them, often forcing people to spend a life time attempting to recover from the encounter.

Up until people actually encounter a psychopath, they are fascinated with the psychopath. People are curious: What makes them tick? Why do they do the things they do? How do they get away with that stuff? After the encounter, most people are hurting, determined never to repeat the experience.

Psychopaths are proficient in reading people. They know how people will react to them. They push all the buttons. One psychopath said in a rare moment of honesty:

"It's so easy!"

He meant that it is so easy for a psychopath to manipulate people, to do whatever the psychopath wants to do to others. Professional researchers doing studies on psychopaths, knowing that the person they were researching really was a psychopath, have fallen into the trap of cooperating with the psychopath. Their lives have been ruined, and they knew better. Psychopaths are persuasive because they not only read a person's desires, their body language, the speech patterns, the psychopath can pinpoint a person's weaknesses and exploit them for all they are worth. Psychopaths are experts on techniques of seduction.


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People who want to be prepared for an encounter with a psychopath should consider purchasing and reading Without Conscience--The Disturbing World of The Psychopaths Among Us by Dr. Robert Hare. Dr. Hare reveals research which indicates that between 1% to 2% of the general population is made up of psychopaths and prisons have as much as a 40% population. The book details the features of a psychopath with definitions, research and personal experiences.

To simplify the basics of what a psychopath is, the following are the characteristics of a psychopath:

A psychopath is a narcissist

A psychopath has no conscience

A psychopath has poor behavior controls

True psychopaths also have a poor integration of the two hemispheres of their brain. Dr. Hare also noted that the psychopath does not have human brainwave patterns. For functional purposes, psychopaths could very well be considered not human. At the very least, they do not have any value systems akin to that of humanity. Psychopaths can be determined by both contextual behavior and by physiological components of the brain. Psychopaths generally come to full flower in the last years of adolescence. Some researchers believe that a component of negative stressful personal experience is needed to set the personality of a psychopath.

Poor behavioral controls mean that a psychopath will do pretty much whatever he thinks to do: The only reason he does not kill you today is that it does not appeal to him. If a psychopath wants to do something, he goes and does it and has little or no self-control.

Narcissistic behavior means that usually a psychopath is looking for a narcissistic source. The psychopath is generally quite possessive about his narcissistic source. This is found in evidence with the girlfriend of a psychopath who is generally regarded by the psychopath as his property, in the same way an inanimate object is a possession. A psychopathic cult leader views his followers as his property. Any interference by an outside force that would remove the "possession" of a psychopath is met with extreme hostility, usually accompanied by corresponding extreme force.

The psychopath can never be expected to be reasonable. As a narcissist, he does not care about other people's feelings. Although a psychopath may be able to read and manipulate the emotions of other people, the psychopath--just as the narcissist--can never feel one real shred of empathy for anyone else but himself. For this reason, there are no emotional repercussions for a psychopath to lie, cheat, steal, practice deception, murder, slander, libel, rape, distress, oppress, enslave, victimize, abuse, assault, neglect or break promises. The psychopath follows no rules but his own and sees other people as objects to use as his own personal property as it suits him. Most people cannot understand this aspect of the psychopath. It is this lack of understanding that makes people so vulnerable to the psychopathic predator. Be aware that if you do any of those things to him, the psychopath will stop at nothing to exact painful revenge on you. "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord", and the psychopath is the Lord.

Psychopaths like to take chances--for example, taunt investigators with risky behavior which may result in their discovery and capture--because it stimulates them. Most psychopaths also seem to have a high tolerance for pain.

While there are some female psychopaths, the predominance of the population of psychopaths is male.


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Many people may be wondering at this point about how to deal with the psychopath. Conviction and execution are good, although few psychopaths commit outright cold blooded murder, again, only because it doesn't appeal to them at the time of opportunity. The truth is that there are only two truly effective means to deal with a psychopath:

Overwhelming brutal superior force;

avoiding them.

Most people do not have sufficient force to influence a psychopath. Implied threats toward a psychopath will only leave him with the accurate belief that you are weak. Most people cannot outsmart a psychopath because of the willingness of the psychopath to get their way, not because of superior intellect or wit: The means justifies the end and any and every means will be employed to achieve that end.

Never buy into the "innocent" act of a psychopath. They are method actors who can slip into their role of looking benign as easily as changing underwear. They will cock their head and knit their eyebrows as if to say, "What are you talking about!?!". They know very well. They are chameleon crocodiles who seem to blend in with sane reasonable people. They are nothing of the kind. Don't be fooled by their "I'm just one of you" acts. You will regret it. They have no understanding of empathy and don't really know what other people are feeling--and they don't even care, but they are really good at artificially simulating it. Never expect to be treated fairly: It's not in them any more than a cobra knows how to treat its prey with caring outgoing concern. They have an agenda and if you are a part of it, you will be forced into your role of completing whatever it is the psychopath has in mind.

Psychopaths will create out of thin air anything they need to invent to achieve their desired effect and make it seem reasonable. It may be completely crazy, psychotic, self-conflicted, absolute twaddle, but to the unwary it will be clear, neat, logical [and completely wrong]. We are not to be ignorant of Satan's devices, but most of us seem to be when it comes to psychopaths.

As soon as you realize you are dealing with a psychopath, it is time to run for cover and sever yourself from their sphere of influence. The alternative is to stay with them to be a toy for their private amusement.

----------------------------------------------------


Here is the section which I was referring to:

Psychopaths also know how to wreck credibility. They can turn around opinions so fast that their victims don't know what hit them. Once a congregation member understands that the leader is a psychopath, the psychopathic leader senses it immediately and sets forth to turn everything around so that the congregation believes that the member is the bad guy. The member will be discredited and made a pariah, assigning attributes possessed by the leader to the hapless victim who is innocent of wrong doing. Every evil the psychopath does, he manages to pin on the victim instead. The victim is cut off without any hope of validation or even having a chance to offer a defense--usually for things he never did, but was accused of. Know too that the psychopath knows the weaknesses of those around him and will publish them when it suits him. This will add a thin venire of credibility to the very thin case against the innocent when he is convicted in a kangaroo court or just ejected without any formalities at all. The psychopath exacts his revenge by continuing the harangue through a campaign of impugning the victim with slander and libel, usually inventing credible sounding plausible garbage. The victim is also isolated. With credibility smashed, no one will listen to the one who has been thus treated to the treachery of the leader and his ever so willing cooperative accessories in the crimes. If any protests are lodged in a public venue, the psychopath will sue and threaten to sue. This is a bully with no conscience, after all, who has no qualms about ruining someone at their own expense without recourse. With the psychopath, there is no such thing as justice. If there are any rules concerning a situation, you can be certain that the psychopath will use them to his advantage and will tacitly discard them when it suits his needs, proclaiming loudly that "We have a Constitution!". Yes, a Constitution with about as much force as a third world dictatorship--and in the same sense. The cult becomes "a one man show" under the psychopath who believes he owns anything and everything in his cult without any accountability whatsoever. To request any accountability is to make yourself a target. Rules are for everyone else except for the psychopath. The psychopath follows his own rules to suit his own tastes. This is yet another reason that it is utterly impossible to deal with a psychopathic cult leader: He holds all the cards and you always lose, even after you escape his clutches. People often find the psychopath has quite a long reach, aided and abetted by laws that are broken, twisted and bent by the psychopath.

[Gabben]

My ex husband was a master manipulator. After just a few years with him, I can pretty readily spot the pointing of a finger in a false direction.
I wish it didn't happen so often, but it's everywhere... blame shifting and projection.
About that... I guess it's all the more reason to choose our battles wisely.
Not too many hills I'm willing to bleed on anymore. Not too many at all.

Thanks for this reminder. I am responsible for my choices. Yep...yep, yep!

Love to you.
Lise

[Certain Hope]

Thank you for taking the time to post it for me, Lise!

I'm looking forward to reading it soon...  and will reply back.

It's a lovely storm-free evening here and so good to see the sun. Everything's golden at the moment.

Oh, I read that tomorrow evening, at moon-rise, there will be a "big moon illusion"... if you get a chance to see. It's the solstice moon... a rare treat!
*even tho it is only an optical illusion     

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25212851/?GT1=43001

[lighter]

Wow.....

ouch, Carolyn.

I had to read that twice... and it hurt my chest each time.

So hard to admit how I was manipulated.... masterfully..... for so many years.

Jerked around.....

so sad.

Lighter

[Certain Hope]

I know, Lighter... it's that old "cult of nice" stuff behind which they hide,

all the while trying to use your own good character, responsibility, ethics against you.

I know for myself that I coulda gone on for umpteen more years, saying "It would be nice if..."
...except he just got too doggone dangerous.

The more I'd try to stay out of his way and tend to my own business, the angrier and more manipulative he'd get.
There is no way to reason one's way out of that. Sometimes the only way is to flee.




Lise, this is so familiar:

If there are any rules concerning a situation, you can be certain that the psychopath will use them to his advantage and will tacitly discard them when it suits his needs, proclaiming loudly that "We have a Constitution!".
Yes, a Constitution with about as much force as a third world dictatorship--and in the same sense.
The cult becomes "a one man show" under the psychopath who believes he owns anything and everything in his cult without any accountability whatsoever.
To request any accountability is to make yourself a target. Rules are for everyone else except for the psychopath.

Exactly.

I've been the target of that. Fortunately, the perpetrator didn't have enough substance or clout to get too far, but it's painful nonetheless.
Mostly, it's shocking... and that's where it's easy to get tripped up.
While you're numbed and in shock, the creepazoid is doing everything possible to re-write history and paint you as the villain.

umm... creepazoid is a technical term 

Love,
Carolyn

[lighter]

This thread makes my heart hurt.

Very scary stuff..... the reality of our lives when we're involved with a creepazoid.... and their tireless paintbrush, re writing history.

: (

Lighter

[debkor]

Light, Lise, Carolyn,

I sat here and read everything and sad to say but I am ever so familiar with all of this.

Love
Deb

[Certain Hope]

Light, Lise, Carolyn,

I sat here and read everything and sad to say but I am ever so familiar with all of this.

Love
Deb

yeah... ((((((((((all))))))))))) I am so sorry.  I saw Lighter's hurting heart post and finally realized... I have gotten stuck in the mud of this stuff and really need to switch gears. Feels like I've been retracing too much familiar ground lately myself. Looking up and out now... for better news and new perspectives!

Love,
Carolyn

[lighter]

Your new thread certainly was a balm for our hearts: )

Up, and in a new direction....

yes.

Lighter

[Certain Hope]

Some more counsel - this from the life coach site - which I thought might be helpful, especially since
the "mistake" could be any number of life issues which has brought us to our knees....
or from which we might struggle for recovery.


  http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~arc24/lc47.html


(Note - I started to correct the format of this, but it's getting late and I figure you can read between the goofs)

What is the path?
Where the "aftermath" of a mistake finishes or at least lessens and the new path can commence even in fledging mode -


[/i]mistake and aftermath ------(lost time/lost way)----------------------- effect of aftermath lessened new path commences -----(a renewal of hope & recovery)----------------------------- mistakes are made ---------(hopes shattered)---------- the new path ends, mistake and aftermath begins again ---------(lost time/lost way)-----------------

This can become an unending cycle of failure and mistakes, aftermath and fallout such as regret and questioning of self and motives, renewed hope and recovery, mistakes and despair, hopes shattered, aftermath, improved capability and capacity, renewal of hope and recovery. Knowing this cycle how can you take advantage of it?


When inside the vortex of the aftermath of the mistake or apparent failure, don't try and leave it too soon or hurry the healing/grieving process, it takes time and there is a reason why it takes this time, it is nature's way of recovering. Don't mess with the timeframe no matter how painful it seems to stay inside the vortex or how great the temptation to ease the pain with alcohol or other substances. Seek help but don't seek oblivion. For most people the temptation to ease the pain with alcohol or other self medication. is too great.


As you realise it is a cycle, you will know that every period of happiness will be followed by despair and vice versa. This is an unyielding law. This allows you to plan for when you will come out into the sunshine and breathe/live again.


Just as you make use of the 'up' time to create things, achieve this, do this, stop or start relationships (with care), invent and implement things, so use the down time to also plan for when you will be up again. You may need some training, some qualification, some experience for the 'up time' now is the right time to get it. Do the training course whilst waiting for the weather to clear. You will find the learning and the improvement in the weather will meld into one.


Be aware of the dynamics of the 'up' and 'down' time. Don't give up things in the down time that you will regret in the up time. Don't take on too many big or difficult things in the 'up' time that you will be unable to service in the 'down' time. Try as much as possible to load balance between 'up' and 'down' time and keep it as even as possible given your prevailing moods.

Be aware of dips on the radar of either up or down time. They may be an indication of a change in the weather or just that a blip. Know the difference.


Develop an early warning system so you know when up is about to go to down or vice versa so you can take advantage of the changeover or even delay it if you can.


Know what it takes for you to turn down into up and up into down. What are the things that you do that influence the barometer one way or another.


For example risky behaviour like having affairs and/or taking drugs might tip the scales one way especially if anything goes wrong. Starting an exercise program might tip the scales from down to up over the period of 4 weeks.


There is sometimes only a thin membrane between success and failure so correspondingly there is only a thin dividing line between' up' and 'down'. But know the depth, length, make-up, colour, taste of the barrier. That is the sweet taste of success or the bitter taste of failure. Sometimes the thinnest barriers are the hardest to crack.

The way back from the pain is twofold. Do not seek help, chew over it daily, hourly, every moment in time. This way will take a long long time to recover with the added disadvantage that you'll probably make the same mistake again because someone has not been there to provide the guidance and advice you need (beside the support you may also need).


Alternatively seek help, peace and calm will arrive somewhat sooner with the added advantage that you may with someone's expert help have added insight into how you got into this problem and how you may (not will) avoid it in the future.

[debkor]

Carolyn,

It is really important things you are posting.  Yes I am very familiar with it now but I was not back then and it is soooo important to post for everyone to read.  I wish back then I had the internet.  There was no internet then, wow, am I that old (lol).

we can share with each other, we have been down the same road in one way or another, we understand.... and the best is ..... we can and do heal...

It is really so nice to know all you peeps..  to bad we had to meet through creepazoids, creepettes, creepola's..

Love
Deb

[Certain Hope]

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Deb))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) thank you. 
I'm feeling pretty blessed to know you, too.

And now for sleep... the wonders of brain de-foggification!

Hope you have an awesome night.

Love,
Carolyn