Answer to Bean's questions

[Ami]

If Lise is reading, *I* don't like her insulted. That is my 2 cents or 3 cents.     Ami

[Hopalong]

Oops.
You're right Bean, we have No Contact.

Sorry.

Hops

[jordanspeeps]

hi all,

while i believe that there is certainly an N presence here, i am both unable, due to my sporadic visitation and general disinterest in conflict, and unwilling to indicate exactly which personality(ies). i do believe however that a tree is known by the fruit it bears.  right now, during this latest rash of board conflicts, i believe we have all in some form, become the victims of board Nism, which is, at its very basis, gossip about one another, and an extremely low threshold for criticism and introspection.  these, to me indicate that there must be a personality or group (Nism can come in the form of a group personality) unwilling to take heed to the call to resolve the conflict, but is politely and every so manipulatively, keeping the conflict and confusion going. that is true Nism, evil at it's basic level. The Enemy is pleased when we get along in this way. and on the topic of whether or not someone is a N versus Nistic,  i'll defer to the operationdoubles site which states: if you wish to know whether or not someone is a N, simply ask them to stop the offending behavior.  a N will not cease in the behavior, in turn, s/he will only apply it more heavily.  keep in mind that N's are not overt, they are subtle and seemingly kind in their demeanor.  the N benefits from covertly manipulating people into a tizzy while the vocal, opinionated, angry, and/or sensitive take the hit for causing the conflict. we could all benefit from stepping back and gaining some perspective on what roles we've played in allowing ourselves to join certain bandwagons and to participate in certain propaganda. if nothing else, we need to all take ourselves about 10 times less seriously, right now.  this is not really as intense as it seems.  

take care friends,
tiffany

[mudpuppy]

How are you to know that there are not real N's here?

I don't. I just said I didn't think that it was the primary reason the board was 'dysfunctional' for want of a better word.

What makes you and expert on the atomosphere here?

Same thing that makes other people experts who comment on the atmosphere here I guess.

It seems to me that you pop your head in on the board, mainly when there is conflict, then you dissapear?

Yeah, usually in an attempt to point out the futility of the conflict. I also occasionally pop in to make bad jokes and to needle Hops.

Do you read the board?

Yes, that is how I quote others.

Do you take in the dynamic?

I think so, that is why I occasionally comment on it. I suspect however I do not see it precisely as you do.

It can be pretty hard to make and assesment of the structure here if you are not here.

I have explained before why my posting has dropped off. However that does not mean I am not 'here'.

Who are you anyway?

If you would like my full name, address, phone number and SSN I'm afraid I can't help. If you mean what is my backstory you can wade through my past posts if you'd like to understand me somewhat better. If you mean am I a sock puppet, you have obviously never smelled one of my socks because it is highly unlikely anyone would voluntarily put their hand in one. If you mean something else then I'm afraid I'm at a loss.

Also, telling us that what we perceive is not what we percieve can be pretty mind-messing, to put it nicely.

I merely disagreed in a general way with some aspects of what some other people said; kind of like starting one's post out with "Mud,
Disagree." I didn't assume you were 'mind-messing' with me, so why assume I'm doing anything different?

Bottom line - I read your post and I felt like a toxic waste of shame was just dumped on me....

Sorry you felt that way but that wasn't my intention. I was only using your line to make a point of my own. I wasn't even commenting directly on your observation. There may be an element of truth to both yours and mine. Not sure why you took offense, I just used your quote as a taking off point. Wasn't even thinking of you in any of my comments before your quote, was just making general comments.

Mud sticks best to a clean spot,

I never knew that, it always seems to stick pretty well to other mud in my experience. Guess you learn something new everyday.

why is your name mud.....anyways?

It's not; it's mudpuppy. I used to sign off as mudpuppy or mudpup but, being somewhat lazy and a typist of the one finger variety found mud to fit my laconic lifestyle somewhat better. If you're making a play on the old saw about 'his name is mud', I've been called a lot worse.


the amphibian formerly known as mud

[teartracks]

Hi Tiffany,

i do believe however that a tree is known by the fruit it bears  and all the rest you said here!

tt

[jordanspeeps]

bean,

things are very good, these days, thanks for asking.  i'm in month two of NC with my mom, so that probably has a lot to do with why things have been flowing well with me.  it's pretty sad to see the dis-ease on the board now.  it makes me think of the "marta days" and the "reallyME" times.  those were times i don't wish to repeat, and my flight/avoidant personality dictates that i remain in lurkland where i can appreciate you alls' experiences and ways of coping without the scrutiny and judgment that comes along with expressing a bold opinion (and i just can't seem to help it, i've learned). dr. g's right, you learn a lot about yourself during these conflicts.  

mud,

i luv you, dude!

p.s. guys, i've been thinking of starting a thread called: To Newbies and Would-Be Newbies... where I welcome them to our albeit dysfunctioinal family with the promise that this (conflict) too shall pass and when we arise again we will be like phoenixes or is it, phoenices or maybe just "The" (collective) Phoenix from the ashes, all shiny and wise.  They should know that it's not always like this, that once upon a time, newbies were met with empathy and hundreds of (((((((((((((((parentheses))))))))))))))))).

off i go,
tiffany

[Leah]

I do believe however that a tree is known by the fruit it bears.

You are quite correct, Tiffany

and I am glad that you have spoken with a clear voice, and clarity.

Love, Leah

[teartracks]

Hi Tiffany,

i've been thinking of starting a thread called: To Newbies and Would-Be Newbies...

This brought to mind what Groucho Marx said:  I would not join any club that would have someone like me for a member."  

tt

[jordanspeeps]

dear tt,

 

tiff

[sKePTiKal]

Dear Mud,
 I think Lise summed it up perfectly. Until there are no N's, N like people and N qualities in ourselves, there will be conflict. here, outside your door, at a cocktail party, a football game ,any group.

Not picking at you Ami - but your quote brought up what I believe to be common misconception in healing that can actually create new problems. Instead of saying N qualities - I'm going to use the word ego.

I lived with a very tiny, tiny, small, ego for a long time. It was actually the biggest thing I had to overcome... why?

Because it limits one's voice...

It believes things like "I'm not important" - "I'm not worth it" - "I'm bad".

I had to learn to grow my ego to gain a voice (become more N, if you will) - to be a BALANCED, whole person.

I think Mud's made a very important point; not everything you don't agree with, not every difficulty you run into is just more N. Life is always going to contain these kinds of things. Can't avoid 'em. The guy who cuts you off in traffic... the boss who takes credit for your work... it's just always gonna be there - but it's not that they're all Ns.

If you try to eradicate all sense of your own ego - it's a very hurtful place, gray & dingy, a never-ending cycle of crawling up the gravel mountain - with each step you try to take, the gravel slides you back down lower than where you started. Without an ego - N in yourself - who's left to cry out in pain, frustration, anger or grief? Who's left to ask for help and say thank you? Who's left to try to escape - free yourself - and want to be free?

N characteristics are GOOD when they are in balance with consideration for others, empathy, being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes... caring.

[Izzy_*now*]

PR

Very good post re N qualities in ourselves-- I don't see any in me and agree that the phrase is wrong to post about our members! We ought to look in the mirror before posting about others.
Izzy

[lighter]

Bean:

I never saw you putting yourself in a "one up" position.... at least that was never my take on it.

I saw you defending others and drawing conclusions I couldn't understand.

I have to ask.... on what were you basing those conclusions regarding trolls and my posting as multiple posters?

Was it the opinions of others... or your own discernment?

Disclaimer:  If your post was in reference to something entirely other than what I've brought up here.... please tell me gently and I'll remove my post.

Lighter

[lighter]

Gotcha, on my question, bean.

On your question....

I think you're really striving to figure out your part in troubled communications and resolve them.

Since I struggle with the same issues right now..... I find your search interesting and enlightening.

Lighter

[CB123]

Only because if you really want to know, I think that would be best left to PM as I'm not sure all here have a need to know.

Bean,

I think I would agree: that everyone here did not need to know that some members had suspicions that Lighter was more than one person on the board.  I think that those suspicions were posted on the board prematurely.

But, they WERE posted.  And discussed.  There were cryptic posts hoping that this person would "find peace", etc.  The whole board was in an uproar and we lost several members.  I think we are long past the point where "need to know" has any bearing at all.

I think it would have been very, very appropriate, SINCE THE ACCUSATIONS WERE MADE, that the evidence for them were presented as well.  I have never understood why the accusations, innuendos, cryptic posts, etc. were flying around the board without a shred of evidence given to support them.  (the fact that Ami thought Changing was dead doesnt qualify as evidence). 

Every religion or ethical discipline that I can think of, has as a basic tenet that one does not accuse another person falsely.  And to bring an accusation against someone else carries with it the responsiblity to support that accusation.  I don't understand your position now,  that those of us who had to endure the week-long accusations do not have the "need to know" the basis of those accusations.

As far as whether or not you did a good job of explaining yourself--in my opinion, I saw a lot of effort on your part to be reasonable and measured in your responses.  I don't think you always did it perfectly.  But, this was a very upsetting episode on the board and there were a lot of things flying around--I dont think it was possible to even KNOW what the best response was, in many cases. 

I think that it's very hard for any of us to evaluate each other's responses.  I believe that there are so many behind-the-scenes issues going on that it would be hard to untangle all of it.  It wasnt til this morning when I read your apology to Ami that I realized for the first time that the discussion behind the scenes about trolling was begun by you.  (am I reading that correctly?) 

That's so sad, to me.  A little comment to someone in a PM: maybe Lighter is a troll.  And from there the ball started rolling and built momentum until we were all hurt.  And at the end of it, Lighter is still here.  Finding Peace is still here.  Changing is still here.  Dr. G. has assured us that they are not the same people.  But there are wounded people (both the intended targets and collateral damage) lying everywhere.  I'm not sure that your measured response on the board can compensate for the damage that was done behind the scenes.

This is not an opinion that I wanted to post, but your most recent post commented that you only get responses when you don't ask for them and you dont get them when you do.  I hope I don't get flamed for making an observation that was requested.  But, given the past week on the board, I don't think anything will surprise me.

CB

[Leah]

Hi ALL

Realization:

With all due respect, this situation is not all about just one week, this last week.

In reality, this situation has been ongoing for the last 6 months.

From:  January 04, 2008

Thread:  what is a Troll?

Therein, the thought was presented and most likely implanted to the minds of all members on the board, with perhaps, most likely, an ongoing wave of 'paranoia' maybe, at the very least, uncertainty.

Thereafter, from January 04, 2008  - would be the flow of analysis and wonderment within PM land, and maybe also, on the board.


What was it that had occurred on the board in order for someone to have need to create a Troll thread?

>  In December there had been episodes of conflict on the board -- with all kinds of stuff flaying around in our midst.


Just a realization of thought, having taken time to stand back, and read the board.

Hoping to bring clarity to the whole situation relative to the last 6 months.

Leah x


Hoping we can find it within ourselves to accept one another.


PS. Personally, I had to contend with the mystery “Betelgeuse” posting on board in April’08.