Author Topic: Language & Absence of Conscience  (Read 3620 times)

Certain Hope

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Language & Absence of Conscience
« on: June 21, 2008, 12:21:11 PM »
Without Conscience - by Robert Hare

http://www.zimbio.com/Narcissistic+personality+disorder/articles/21/Without+Conscience

from Chapter 8  - Words from an Overcoat Pocket


One question runs like a refrain through the stories told by victims ...

"How could I have been so stupid? How could I have fallen for the incredible line of baloney?”
And when victims aren’t asking themselves, somebody else is sure to pose the question. “How on earth could you have been taken in to that extent?”
The characteristic answer: “You had to be there. It seemed reasonable, plausible at the time.”
The clear - and largely valid - implication is that had we been there we too might have been sucked in.....
.....Of course, pathological lying and manipulation are not restricted to psychopaths.
What makes psychopaths different from all others is the remarkable ease with which they lie, the pervasiveness of their deception, and the callousness with which they carry it out.
But there is something else about the speech of psychopaths that is equally puzzling:
their frequent use of contradictory and logically inconsistent statements that usually escape detection.

Recent research on the language of psychopaths provides us with some important clues to this puzzle, as well as to the uncanny ability psychopaths have to move words - and people - around so easily.

[ examples are given here:  http://www.zimbio.com/Narcissistic+personality+disorder/articles/21/Without+Conscience ]

Think about this for a moment.....
not only lies but several contradictory statements in the same breath.
Very perplexing.
 It is as if psychopaths sometimes have difficulty in monitoring their own speech, and they let loose with a convoluted barrage of poorly connected words and thoughts.
Psychopaths also sometimes put words together in strange ways.

[ again, examples given at link ]

This raises the interesting possibility that, like much of their behavior, the mental processes of psychopaths are poorly regulated and not bound by conventional rules. This issue is discussed in the following sections, which outline evidence that psychopaths differ from others in the way their brains are organized and in the connections between words and emotion.”

In most people the two sides of the brain have different, specialized functions. The left cerebral hemisphere is skilled at processing information analytically and sequentially, and it plays a crucial role in the understanding and use of language. The right hemisphere processes information simultaneously, as a whole; it plays an important role in the perception of spatial relations, imagery, emotional experience, and the processing of music.
Nature probably "arranged" for each side of the brain to have different functions for the sake of efficiency. For example, it is clearly more effective for all the complex mental operations required to use and understand language to take place in one side of the brain than if they were distributed over both sides. In the latter case, information would have to be sent back and forth between the two hemispheres, which would slow down the processing rate and increase the chances of error.Further, some part of the brain has to have primary control over the task; if the two sides of the brain were competing for this control, the conflict would reduce the efficiency of processing. Some forms of dyslexia and stuttering, for example, are associated with just such a condition: Language centers are bilateral--located in both hemispheres. Competition between the two hemispheres makes for a variety of difficulties in the understanding and production of language.New experimental evidence suggests that bilateral language processes are also characteristic of psychopathy. This leads me to speculate that part of the tendency for psychopaths to make contradictory statements is related to an inefficient “line of authority”--each hemisphere tries to run the show, with the result that speech is poorly integrated and monitored.Of course, others with bilateral language--some stutterers, dyslexics, and left-handers--do not lie and contradict themselves the way psychopaths do. Clearly, something else must be involved.


lighter

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2008, 01:29:16 PM »
Carolyn.... you're sharing  thing I need to hear, lately....

aren't you?

When I add in Lupita's donkey riding story.... to this thread.....

it really resonates.

((Carolyn))  Thanks.

Lighter

Juno

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2008, 03:59:34 PM »
I have had two N-bosses and they both had this problem with language.  The second boss convinced our maintenance man to break into our money drawers (long story) by tricking him as to why he was supposed to do this and what she wanted him to look for.  Once he realized he was breaking into money drawers (rather than drawers that might have something other than money in them) he stopped, got a witness, and then protected himself with a signed statement from that witness.  He knew immediately that this was wrong.  No question in his mind.

Once the whole thing blew up in our boss's face, she decided to call each of us into her office for a lengthy explanation of why she did this, and that it wasn't wrong, and it was a mistake, but she just had to do it, and on and on.  I didn't say a word during my fifteen minutes of quality time with her.  I just listened really hard.  She contradicted nearly every single statement she made.  And her story shifted slightly with each telling (we all compared our experiences with her later on).  She was so very subtle--much more skilled and subtle than my first N-boss.  I kept thinking, no wonder she gets away with so much!  You have to have so much background knowlege of events to detect the lies and inconsistencies.  You have to check with others and you have to compare current statements with something she just said three seconds ago.  It was a draining experience for me.  And..... there was still one person who said, "Oh, I believe her, she wasn't lying, she was telling the truth."  How I wish I could have recorded the explanation.  It would have been classic N talk, a wonderful example for this thread.

I met her daughter once.  That girl was one of the most depressed or repressed people I have ever met.  She is quite smart and going to be a veterinarian according to her mother.  But voiceless.  So very voiceless.  How could she be anything but with a mother like that?

Oh, and after this we started referring to her as "Crowbar" behind her back.  The thing that bothered her the most?  Once our little nickname got out of the office, other people were teasing her about it.  She didn't like being teased about it.  "All the clerks who know me in other offices are calling me Crowbar!"  That was the worst part of it for her.  Not that we reported the security breach to our union, not that we all knew she was not to be trusted, not even her "friends" could trust her.  It was being teased about it that bothered her the most.

teartracks

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2008, 04:55:08 PM »




Carolyn,

It is as if psychopaths sometimes have difficulty in monitoring their own speech, and they let loose with a convoluted barrage of poorly connected words and thoughts.
Psychopaths also sometimes put words together in strange ways.


The psycopath doesn't merely indulge in conversational chaff or word salads.  They twist, and twist, and twist. and then twist some more.

Good reading.

tt


Certain Hope

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2008, 07:13:51 PM »




Carolyn,

It is as if psychopaths sometimes have difficulty in monitoring their own speech, and they let loose with a convoluted barrage of poorly connected words and thoughts.
Psychopaths also sometimes put words together in strange ways.


The psycopath doesn't merely indulge in conversational chaff or word salads.  They twist, and twist, and twist. and then twist some more.

Good reading.

tt



Thanks, tt.

I became interested in this as a result of the reading I did for that thread about sociopaths, because - in re-thinking the stuff ex put me through, he really was far more than npd.

And you're right... there's nothing fluffy about psycho-speak & it's so much more than just lingo or tangled jargon.
It's the absence of conscience which makes it so.
It's what allowed him to say to the court - as his final evidence of my extreme culpability for not fighting against the divorce he initiated after I had him removed from the home under a protective order - (don't miss all the twists and turns in that one clause - - - he threatened me, but calling him on those threats was grounds for divorce?)

anyhow... back to my horrible, shameful crime...

I'd only cooked him breakfast 3 times in all of the previous week.

Take her away, your honor!!

Carolyn

Certain Hope

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2008, 08:22:00 PM »
((((((((Lighter)))))))) as always, I'm glad if this helps. My goal is to focus on more healing aspects of all this... toward recovery, you know?

But there are still these bumps in the road ahead... and this subject is one of those for me, too.

What is Lupita's donkey riding story? That sounds vaguely familiar, but I forget...

I hope you're hangin in there okay these days.

Love,
Carolyn

lighter

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2008, 09:38:47 PM »
Not sure where the thread went but will look....


Certain Hope

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2008, 09:45:07 PM »
okay... sorry, Lighter... guess I could have done a search for donkey... lol...

umm...

I will wait for you to find it though.

Thanks.

lighter

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2008, 09:46:05 PM »
AAAAAHHH... Carolyn, maybe it was a cow.

The gist of the story was that, no matter what we do....

ride our beast of burden or walk beside it (on a long journey..)

we'll be criticized for NOT riding it, when we walk... ie(Why aren't you riding your beast... are you stupid?)

and for WALKING, when we're not riding. ie(WHy are you riding it, how cruel and lazy of you?)

The twisting of our actions and words, in order to villianize us.

That, and some of your very recent threads, are helping me focus on problems and solutions for my life at this time.

Thanks.

Light

Certain Hope

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2008, 09:50:28 PM »
I see, Lighter.

I remember those days.

I only wish that they were a distant memory.

It gets better in time...
and when you find yourself in a bad spot,
just remember you're never as stuck as you might feel you are...
because now you know the truth of the matter.

Love,
Carolyn

Certain Hope

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 12:33:52 AM »
I have had two N-bosses and they both had this problem with language.  The second boss convinced our maintenance man to break into our money drawers (long story) by tricking him as to why he was supposed to do this and what she wanted him to look for.  Once he realized he was breaking into money drawers (rather than drawers that might have something other than money in them) he stopped, got a witness, and then protected himself with a signed statement from that witness.  He knew immediately that this was wrong.  No question in his mind.

Once the whole thing blew up in our boss's face, she decided to call each of us into her office for a lengthy explanation of why she did this, and that it wasn't wrong, and it was a mistake, but she just had to do it, and on and on.  I didn't say a word during my fifteen minutes of quality time with her.  I just listened really hard.  She contradicted nearly every single statement she made.  And her story shifted slightly with each telling (we all compared our experiences with her later on).  She was so very subtle--much more skilled and subtle than my first N-boss.  I kept thinking, no wonder she gets away with so much!  You have to have so much background knowlege of events to detect the lies and inconsistencies.  You have to check with others and you have to compare current statements with something she just said three seconds ago.  It was a draining experience for me.  And..... there was still one person who said, "Oh, I believe her, she wasn't lying, she was telling the truth."  How I wish I could have recorded the explanation.  It would have been classic N talk, a wonderful example for this thread.

I met her daughter once.  That girl was one of the most depressed or repressed people I have ever met.  She is quite smart and going to be a veterinarian according to her mother.  But voiceless.  So very voiceless.  How could she be anything but with a mother like that?

Oh, and after this we started referring to her as "Crowbar" behind her back.  The thing that bothered her the most?  Once our little nickname got out of the office, other people were teasing her about it.  She didn't like being teased about it.  "All the clerks who know me in other offices are calling me Crowbar!"  That was the worst part of it for her.  Not that we reported the security breach to our union, not that we all knew she was not to be trusted, not even her "friends" could trust her.  It was being teased about it that bothered her the most.

Juno,

That is so classic... and so creepy!
I feel so bad for her daughter. Hopefully she'll be able to find her voice before she's our age.

And that last part, says it all, to me: 
Quote
It was being teased about it that bothered her the most.

Reality, the facts, witnesses who know... none of that matters to N.
She doesn't care what sort of history she leaves behind her, because she re-scripts that moment by moment.
All that counts is appearances. That's all that ever matters to NPD.

Thanks for sharing this, PP. I work with one who's about a 7 on a scale from 1-10, but can't imagine having her for a boss (although she thinks she's everyone's boss, anyhow!).

Hope you're having some relaxation tonight.

Love,
Carolyn

Izzy_*now*

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2008, 12:50:37 AM »
Lupita's donkey post.

The story of the dunky and the old mand and the child.

They all were walking when somebody told them how stupid they were becasue they could be on the dunky. They got on the dunky and kept going and somebody told them how cruel they were because they both were on the dunky. The old man got off the dunky and kept going. Then somebody told them how stupid they were because the poor old man was walking instead of the ouny strong child. So thet changed palces nad kept going. Somebody stopped them and told them how stupid they were since the old man was on the dunky and the poor young child was walking.

Never is everybody going to be happy or everybody unhappy. We make some of the time some poeple happy and some of the time some people unhappy.

We cannot be responsible for the feelings of others or the thoughts of others or the opinions of others and need not to care for the opinions of others.

Just do the best we can.

I, personally, am very thankful to Dr. Grossman for this place where I can come and talk and make friends.


Dear Dr. Grossman, you have all my sympathy, and my empathy.

I do not want to be a principal in a school, or a president of a country, or a CEO or a company, etc.

Hops, thank you for this thread.


[/size]
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

Izzy_*now*

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 12:54:27 AM »
AAAAAHHH... Carolyn, maybe it was a cow.


hi lighterl

I chuckle at your Cow

I just thought I would help you out, as I remembered Lupita's post, so there it is and it does have a good moral--one cannot please everyone
Love
Iz
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

Certain Hope

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2008, 12:58:03 AM »
Thanks, Izzy.  I appreciate your taking the time to locate the post... great story.

Thanks, Lupita... I'll remember that illustration and the truth behind it!

Carolyn

Juno

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Re: Language & Absence of Conscience
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2008, 10:07:37 AM »
can't imagine having her for a boss

She did hundreds of awful or ridiculous things during her year and a half with us.  One good example:  After she re-decorated her office for top dollar she decided the rest of the building was ugly.  So she wanted the maintenance man to paint all the interior bricks pink.  This building was built in the 1930s and the interior walls contain thousands of bricks.  It would have taken him a year to do such a thing.  And she also wanted some shelving painted all the same color but he was only to use leftover paint that might be laying around in the basement.  And all this was after she cut the other maintenance position so that one man was expected to do the work of two.  She was able to cut the position by convincing the powers that be that our office was too small to even have one maintenance position.  Logical, huh?

It was a rough year and a half.  All the lying and head games and power plays and divide and conquer.

She confided in one of her favorite employees that when her father died, all four of his girlfriends showed up to the funeral at the same time.  Her mother was there, too, of course.  She had "daddy issues" as we called it.  I can only imagine what else went on in the household that she grew up in to have her turn out like this.