Author Topic: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality  (Read 4529 times)

teartracks

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Edit in: The topic of Magical Thinking has gone the rounds on the board a number of times.  There are many posts on the subject and some are very good.  For those wishing to review past threads/posts on the subject, just type Magical Thinking in the search box. 

If you find the topic boring today, click on by. 

Magical thinking may be  way more common than you think.  I see it exhibited in everyday 3D conversations, here and even in church. And as this article points out,  According to an article in the NYT (see link below) Too much magical thinking though can be bad news though, say, for those who suffer from obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Edit in:  I see that the NYT portion of Mr. Pesovitz's article embraces the idea that faith and magical thinking are one and the same or at least it is implied.  While I think the two can be confused especially in the mind of a child,  the NYT part of the article seems to equate  faith as in, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as nothing more than magical thinking.  I am a woman of faith.  I can't reconcile what is implied in the article with my own faith.  So I am deleting the article from this post, *except for the quote about OCD.  It is a widely held theory that magical thinking and OCD are often related.    If you want to read the article here is the link.  http://www.boingboing.net/2007/01/23/psychology-of-magica.html

Again, I encourage you to review the many good posts on magical thinking that already exist on the board.

tt

PS Sorry for all the edits.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 06:55:22 PM by teartracks »

Certain Hope

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2008, 06:58:36 PM »
tt,

I'm interested. But I'm a little-picture person, at least to start with.

Can you give some examples, please?  Hypothetical is great.

It's not just about superstitions, is it?

I remember a guy who thought he could put on his mental helmet and sway people to see his perspective without a hitch. He was just plain creepy, to me.

And what about neuro-linguistic programming?  Could that be a form of this, as well?

None of it leaves much room for individual free will, it doesn't seem.

Am I anywhere near the ballpark?

Carolyn

Certain Hope

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2008, 07:19:51 PM »
Well, fine, just be that way  :lol:

((((tt))))  happy refreshment.

Shall I put in a wake-up call for you?

Love,
Carolyn

Izzy_*now*

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2008, 07:41:49 PM »
hi tt
Magical Thinking is a very interesting concept but I don't recall having any, for long.

I have lived for almost as long as you and we have a few areas where we disagree, but many ideas and beliefs come from the era in which we were raised. Are you and I alone in this? You had an N mom and I didn't. The Ns in my life, I have discovered, 2004 onward and tried to put it all to rest.

Now my problem area is that I was not taught any thinking from the time I was little, and I suspect I withdrew inside myself to alleviate the pain.

There were no birthday parties. There was no tooth fairy. There was a "supposed Santa" but (our gifts were piled with our name on a scrap of paper) when I was very little my [now that I know] N sister was ahead of me on the stairs. The picture is still in my mind. My mind photographed it, as it has with many others. I can even see my knees in pajamas following her down, then saw her move a doll from one pile to another. Our mother was standing to the right of the tree that was set up at the front door that we never used. N sister never liked dolls. I looked up at my mother and said, "I wanted a doll". I can still see her face turn to pain........ and that was it. I knew then, as young as I was, that my mother let my sister have my doll and my feelings never mattered.

I don't recall any Magical thinking, as I believe the term to be, from that point onward. I never believed the Fairy Tales. I knew they were untrue and those things never happened. We went to church every Sunday and we heard about God and Jesus, but they were never around, never came to dinner, just another story that was untrue. C hurch meant that Mom sat on one side with the girls and Dad sat on the other side with the one boy. It was the place that my mother made me go to after I had cut off all my hair, and people were asking who the boy was in the [our] family wearing a girl's hat = I looked like a boy and no one noticed *I* was 'missing'. There was no magical thinking about forever after.

By the time I was 15 I knew that no one would ever love me and I would never get married. Marriage was presented one way at a ceremony and another way at home. Sex was supposed to be a certain way, but my parents never shared a bedroom. Everything I heard was presented as being untrue.

I can fast forward to life with the Ns, my daughter and me. Her N, her life. was not what she expected. She was given a life of poverty and abuse, accompanied by brain-washing against me. There was no Magic for her, her disappointment that she never mentioned, and sadness for me.

I thought Magic came when I met the N. I was soon disappointed and tied up in business and lease legalties, but extracated myself

That is the only way, and to put out of one's mind the harm that the N did, just dwell on oneself, blaming no one, either directly or indirectly. An N is an N is an N.

Get away from the N, and referring to the N. N's are not Magic. They are the devil incarnate, or the blood thirsty vampire that drains your soul. There is no Magic. They create more Ns. I've seen it, read it.

Those who live too long with an N pick up the N-ish traits and begin to blame others, instead of just looking out for themselves. I've heard (read) cryptic remarks, but can see through them now. I have heard (read) words with double meanings, but see through them.

Some people cannot LET GO, as they want to forever be pitied for the horror they have endured.

I think perhaps I was lucky that I never had any Magical Thinking, EVER and have been able to come to terms with liars, cheats, nastiness, selfishness and people in denial, the hangers-on, the "blame her so I don't have to accept my fatal flaws".

Well tt, this is long, but am I talking about Magical Thinking, as is meant in your post? If not, well I just talked about me  :lol:  :lol:

From the lack of Magical Thinking gal
Izzy
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 07:47:10 PM by Izzy_*now* »
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

Certain Hope

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2008, 08:30:42 PM »
Quote
Oh crap!  You let the cat out of the bag!  Now everyone knows that I'm the resident old person here!


oh yeah, like that was a big secret!  :shock:


I know, I know.... going back to my room now    :lol:

Izzy_*now*

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2008, 08:37:58 PM »
oh!
Pardon me Folks!

I have lived for almost as long as you

should read

You have lived for almost as long as I.


It's this keyboard. All the words are programmed in backward. That's why I need a new one!

My apologies to the young lady
Izzy
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

dandylife

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2008, 08:55:48 PM »
You know I never had any magical thinking.

My mom always said, "I am Mrs. Average America." You know, meaning not special, not ambitious, never going to be rich or important or famous, etc.

There was never any expectation voiced that any of us kids would be anything but average.

Maybe that helped in the "magical thinking" department!

Dandylife
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"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

gratitude28

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2008, 09:01:48 PM »
Hey tt,
I know I have chimed in on this one before, but my NM is the epitome of the person described here...

For starters, she is very childlike with money as she feels everything will work out. She plans for nothing and just prays she will make it through to the next pay somehow. She seems to feel there is a magic bag of gold that replenishes itself and will until she dies. I fear she is in for a big surprise.

NM also believes in ghosts (good and bad). She often tells stories (and as if she were sharing a huge secret with you) about stange things that happened when relatives died. She also describes dreams that apparently came from these relatives that were meant as tokens of love or omens or such. She will attribute bad happenings to inanimate objects (I can tell that watch has been through something evil - I need to get it out of the house).

Nowadays, NM's reality is ever more unrealistic. She says things about her idealistic, movie-perfect childhood, that everyone knows never happened... in fact her childhood seems to have been fairly frightening (and I believe that may be where a lot of her disorder originated).

So that is my personal take on your idea, tt. It becomes clearer as I understand more about her and remember more.

I don't think Ns have any sense of reality. They have a play set in their minds and run around finding the things (and people) they need to fit into their ideas. And if the thing or person doesn't fit anymore, the search is on for the new missing piece.

Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Certain Hope

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2008, 09:34:28 PM »
Thanks, tt.  I'll read from that the link and sort out my thoughts .

Love,
Carolyn

Ami

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2008, 08:14:07 AM »
I have had( and still do) have many instances of magical thinking. I thought there were good and bad people, not "gray" people, human people with good AND  bad.
I thought that when you got older, you got wise and "knew" the answers
 I thought being married was far better than being divorced but that is not true at all. I thought that if you had a good mother, all would be OK, but that is not true , either, b/c I was a good mother to Scott .
     Ami
           
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 08:34:12 AM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Certain Hope

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2008, 09:44:45 AM »
Well... Wikipedia has some very interesting notations, even connecting religious practices - such as "positive confession" - with magical thinking, in that some folks will deny that they're feeling ill, lest they reinforce that sickness. In that respect, I believe it's like my pastor says...
Jesus didn't say, "See that mountain?? Now confess that it isn't there!"

Besides the relation between magical thinking and obsessive compulsions,
it's also linked to other mental illness, such as schizotypal personality disorder and psychosis.
Schizotypal is the one I ran across way back, and in which I've always recognized NPD-ex and some of his bizarre, seemingly eccentric behavior and mannerisms.
Oh, he was into those little dolls, too.... cocina? (no clue re: spelling).  And dreamcatchers. Talismans and such seemed to hold alot of meaning for him... but then, he was a spooky guy.  Also, he seemed to thrive on video games which incorporated alot of that stuff (yes, a 50 yo guy.... glued to his games).  If you'd seen the expression on his face while playing... well, he was one with the machine  :?
I've no doubt that he considered himself to be in possession super powers, including x-ray vision and the ability to cast spells. More like possessed, imo!  (and I'm only half-kidding!)

And I've always felt... like Beth said:

Quote
I don't think Ns have any sense of reality. They have a play set in their minds and run around finding the things (and people) they need to fit into their ideas. And if the thing or person doesn't fit anymore, the search is on for the new missing piece.

Within a love relationship or friendship, NPD sees "other" as magical, at first... the idealization period... oh you are so wonderful, their missing piece.
But it just can't last long, because no human being can withstand being absorbed that way, all personal identity erased and melded into the N, all sense of reality smothered in the magical goop by which N defines an unreal existence.
Reality, painful as it can be, is preferable, by far!
Thanks for the thread, tt.

Carolyn

sKePTiKal

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2008, 10:42:21 AM »
Thank you, tt....

this concept (magical thinking) has been useful to me, today.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Ami

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2008, 11:45:54 AM »
I was going to do a thread on "false hope" as Janov(I think) calls it. It is that you will ,finally ,be loved, as you were NOT,f you ONLY find the right person, do the right things(prestige, awards, honors etc), then you will be (or feel) loved and finally feel OK.
 I think this is a big hope and wish.It has been ,for me.      Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

dandylife

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2008, 11:19:32 PM »
I kinda tend to stick with what I know a little bit about. And I live with someone diagnosed with BPD.

This is one of the traits as described below:

"irrational beliefs: for example, unrealistic expectations, perfectionistic demands on self, unwarranted pessimism"

I could make a list a mile long of irrational beliefs.

But, this ties in with another topic on the board tonight - Tayana's where I mentioned "schemas". My BPD partner has like 9 of the possible 11 schemas. (!) Whew!

I will try and think of some good examples, as real life is always more interesting than some textbook (IMO)

I'll get back later,

Dandylife
"All things not at peace will cry out." Han Yun

"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

Certain Hope

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Re: Illusion of Magical Power (Magical Thinking), Fantasy, Reality
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2008, 01:42:02 PM »
tt,

Here's a bit of real-life magical thinking in operation, from   http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/narcissism.php


By giving evidence the highest standing, and by dismissing all authority out of hand, at first glance science seems to represent the antithesis of the narcissist's game plan. In a pure, abstract sense this is true, and if science were entirely uniform and separate from the world, narcissists would avoid science at all costs. But the reality is more complex.

This may surprise some who have learned the basics of science and the scientific method, but some covert narcissists actually become scientists, publish papers, and win wide recognition. This is deplorable but true, but it is never true for long, because ... well, to put it simply, truth has a persistence that falsehood can't bear.

A case in point is the recently exposed South Korean scientist Dr. Hwang Woo Suk, who had previously been lauded as a pioneer in the new field of stem-cell research. This is a particularly egregious example of scientific fraud, because recent investigations show that nearly all of Dr. Hwang's most important work was faked. And, true to the credo of the narcissist, in the midst of his public humiliation, while apologizing for his fakery, Dr. Hwang brightened up and proceeded to place blame on his coworkers for misleading him (avoidance of personal responsibility is a litmus test for narcissism).

This fraud will be examined for a long time, because Dr. Hwang wasn't toiling in darkness and secrecy, but in a very public forum, and he published a number of claims over a period of years that could have been checked out by other scientists in a more timely way. He was named "Researcher of the Year" by the prestigious journal Scientific American, while Time Magazine proclaimed that "the quality of Hwang's science is unimpeachable." The latter claim is typical of journalists, who never seem to grasp that all scientific theories and evidence are by definition impeachable, and for all time.

What is interesting about this case is the sort of "science" that narcissists do. To a scientist, all that matters is testing theories against reality: does nature support my theory? Consequently, putting forth a theory is only the beginning of a process that ends with either confirming evidence gleaned from direct observation of nature, or the discarding of the theory. By contrast, to a narcissist, evidence is an adversary, therefore once a theory is uttered, the process grinds to a halt and someone uncorks the champagne. To understand why this is true, one must remember that a narcissist is in essence a child, not an adult, and when deciding how to cope, reality testing can't compare to magical thinking.

Notwithstanding this and other examples of scientific fraud, over the long term science really is antithetical to narcissism.
The simplest way of saying it is that in the spotlight of reality, a scientist presents evidence, while a narcissist lapses into denial and rage.
At their respective best, the scientist might create a vaccine, while the narcissist will likely create an embarrassing spectacle.



Carolyn

P.S.   Dandylife, what are these schemas?  I'm unfamiliar, but would like to know. Thanks!