Ethical question

[LilyCat]

Okay, I need some help here.

I've been looking for a spiritual/pastoral counselor in addition to my therapist because of the spiritual issues involved. I talked to one minister who was very nice, but not what I need. Have looked through various other places to find someone.

I have found a pastoral counselor who has the exact qualifications I'm seeking. She is an ordained minister in my denomination, she is a Ph.D., she has psychological counseling credentials; her educational credentials are very good, from major institutions, and -- get this -- she is very familiar with NPD issues. (It's in her bio.) All sounds very good.

The problem is, she is a professor at the theological seminary where the N is or will be attending.

Should I disclose this to her? Not for his needs but for a possible conflict of interest for her? My inclination is that I should, but ... it's been difficult to find someone I think will fit. Selfishly, I don't want to have to forego her because of this. I guess it could also be considered an angry thing to do, speak with someone where he's going.

I wouldn't be meeting with her at the campus, but at her office in another town some distance away.

I don't even know that she teaches in his program, or that he would ever meet her, but I can see where this could cause some problems for her.

I guess I should, right? Thanks.   

...but I hate to give her up!!! (Just had to whine.)

[Certain Hope]

Dear Lily,

Would she really have to know his name?

Doesn't seem like it, to me, but I dunno...

She does sound like the ideal candidate for you!

Love,
Carolyn

[ann3]

Hi Lilycat,

Thought I'd give this a shot.

I think there is one key question and one key issue:

Key question:  Is the N  (the seminary student) central to the topic for which you seek counseling?  If the N is not central, then you do not need to disclose the N's identity.  But, even if the N is central, perhaps you still do not need to disclosed the N's identity (name).  If necessary to the topic, you perhaps could say that the N is a seminary student, but do not have to id which seminary or give a name.  Could you just identify the N (if the issue arises) as "Mr/Ms X"?  Also, perhaps your counselor will have no or little contact with the N, so this may not even become a problem.

Key issue:  It's been difficult to find a counselor you like, so why give her up merely because the N will attend the same seminary as the counselor?  

I think if you really want this counselor, go for it, but do not disclose N's name unless the counselor feels it's relevant.

good luck,
love,
ann

[LilyCat]

Thank you both. Your thoughts are what I was thinking (anonymity), I just didn't know if it was ethical or even a therapeutic issue for me (Which is probably is, but I would be going to her for spiritual counseling, not therapy.) I don't see why she would have to know that he is a student ... and frankly, I don't even know that he's gone through with it. When he announced his resignation and plans in January, I was highly suspicious that he'd actually do the Ph.D. part of it. Although he is very accomplished, there are nonetheless several things he has stated he's doing -- like getting his PhD at another time and place, writing a book, etc. -- that he never did. Not saying that makes him any different from the rest of us who don't get it all done, but ...

[Gaining Strength]

I think Ann3 has a great suggestion about how to handle the issue.  I encourage you to disclose to her that N is a seminary student even if N is not pertinent to the counseling for this reason; you want to establish a relationship of trust and therefore you must begin by being open and honest.  If you are hiding something for fear of the results then you have been less than honest and it will effect the entirety of your counselling relationship.

With Ann3's suggestion you give her the full disclosure without identifying the person and that would allow you to have an open relationship with the counselor as well as keep some distance and perhaps avoid any conflict of interest on her part.

I hope this works for you.  I so admire the route you are taking and may push myself in the same direction.  Finding the right person is truly a huge hurdle.  Trust that if she is truly the right person that it will work out perfectly.

[Certain Hope]

Hi again, Lily,

For me, it was easy to get tangled up... because I was torn between wanting to protect the people who'd targeted me... and wanting them outed.

There are ethical questions all the way around...  and self- doubts, too... like, am I secretly wanting revenge?
I don't know whether any of that might be in the back of your mind, but these questions troubled me.

Anyhow, I think alot of that will become more clear once you're actually in the midst of counseling, and in the meanwhile,

I just wanted to say...  I hope you will not let your own mixed feelings about the possibility of "betraying" this person prevent you from pursuing the guidance which could be so helpful to you.

Hope that makes sense!

Love,
Carolyn

[LilyCat]

Hi everyone,

I came back so that I could post and say I'd emailed her and made the disclosure, asked the conflict of interest question, etc. I feel good about that. I realized it was just too big of an issue, for both of us and for the potential counseling relationship. So, we'll see what she has to say. I really hope it works out. I'm seeking a unique set of qualifications, and to find someone who's actually done NPD research -- what a bonus! She sounds like a really interesting professional. (I did hope for a male counselor because of the issues, but there are pluses to seeing a woman as well.)

Carolyn, you hit the nail on the head. Those were my questions. This is undoubtedly partly an act of anger, but if it is, I own it entirely. I deserve to be angry. The only reason I haven't been pursuing a professional review is that I'm afraid it would just escalate things  -- that he would retaliate in some way.

But have no fear -- I have no wish to protect him or concerns about betraying him, at least in this instance. His needs are not part of my decision. I do have a deep desire to "out" him (see above), this is probably a part of that.

Shame Slayer and Ann3, thank you as well. Great input and much appreciated. FYI, yes, he IS the topic!!! I have so many spiritual issues and questions as a result of this.

I did check the academic courses, and she only teaches one course in his program; he may not even take it, who knows. (Family systems.)


...on another subject -- no kittens yet!!

[ann3]

Hi Lily,

Glad to help & I think you made a great decision, especially since she has researched NPD!!  Oh yeah, that is quite a bonus!!  Hope you can share some of her insight into Ns, but, of course, I'm not asking you to disclose info from your private counseling sessions, just some of her insight because so few professionals are truly knowledgable about Ns.  But, only if you're comfortable with it.  I've tried to find a T who really understands Ns & the damage they cause.  Haven't found one yet.  Wow, I hope I don't sound like an N :  this is not about me, it's about you and your counseling.  Sorry if I sound Nish, I don't mean to.  Good luck with your counseling.

Lily, I laughed when you wrote that you're not sure whether your N would even go thru the rigors of obtaining a PHd.  My ex-H often talked about getting various PHds, high level jobs & writing books, but he never did any of these things.  All talk, no follow thru.  Maybe he just couldn't handle the rigors &/or he's lazy.  Who knows?  I have learned that the only thing I can figure out about Ns is that I cannot figure them out.

SS, thank you for your kind words and hope you are doing well.

love to all,
ann

[Certain Hope]

Lily, that is great news!

You've already made a giant leap forward by disclosing it all up front. Now the potential for conflict within yourself (which is where it really counts, ultimately) has been cleared away      You do good work!  And thanks for keepin us informed.

Awaiting the impending birth....   

Love,
Carolyn

[lighter]

Hi Lily... looks like you got some good feedback here.

I will add....

anything you say to your pastor should be a private confidential matter.

If you feel safe disclosing... disclose.

If you don't.... if you feel it's just embroiling the N again, needlessly.... then let it be and don't bother.

The proximity to N....

has me concerned for you.

Lighter

[LilyCat]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your feedback. Somehow I missed this until now. (Monday.)

Haven't heard back from her since ... Thursday? Or Wednesday. I forget.

This has me a little concerned about her reliability/responsiveness. It could just be a vacation. It could just be she doesn't check her emails. It could be any # of things. She was responsive at first.

Anyway, if I do see her and I learn anything interesting about Ns, I'll let you know. My current therapist knows the deal, but he would never classify someone (he doesn't speak in those terms anyway) or hint that someone is something, or talk in those terms ... so, he never says the N word. But he certainly talks about manipulation and he certainly understands when I talk about the impenetrable mask. So he knows, he's just being professional.

Lighter, I'm not sure if you're talking about geographic proximity or educational, but ... I don't think it will be a problem. She said she maintains her office off-campus (miles and miles away) to keep those boundaries clear. Also, she said she doesn't teach any courses in the program he's in, so it doesn't sound like they would even meet.

Carolyn, thank you. (I know you've checked out for awhile...)

Ann, you don't sound like an N at all. I know what you mean, though. WHen I post here or elsewhere and talk about myself, I often have the same feeling/fear. They really get to us in so many ways!

That's amusing about your ex-H. Glad I made you laugh. This one might actually do it; he seemed more intent upon it and arranged things so he could, but ... who knows with them? It could have all been a "my life is so rosy" bit. I've sometimes thought the whole resignation thing was really because maybe things weren't going as well for him with us (now that so many people knew about his affair) and that the new job/career plans were just a smokescreen. Lie. Everything is rosy deal. Who knows? He certainly is gifted and very smart. When I read some of the threads here, I so want to post some of his thoughts/sermons. He really is an amazing preacher. Wonderful insights. If only he lived what he preaches!! (I always gag on the one where he talked about "the importance of living the right way." And by right he didn't mean following rules, he meant living with compassion and mercy and love and hospitality and welcome.)

Wandering, sorry!

[LilyCat]

For anyone ... FYI, she emailed back. Only time -- Groan! -- is 8:15 on Saturdays, she's at least 45 away -- but will be well worth it, I'm sure.

[Hopalong]

That's great, LilyCat!
I think it will be worth it too.

How amazing to see someone who specializes in NPD...wow.

So glad for you,
Hops

[LilyCat]

Thanks, Hops. Yes, I think it is so surprising to find someone who knows about NPD and has actually worked in it somehow ... particularly in the context of spirituality. I think she will be really interesting to talk to.

...I can always nap when I get home!