Baloney Detection

[gjazz]

Dandylife:

I like your exploration of argument techniques, here.  I don't necessarily advocate turning the other cheek.  I DO advocate respecting yourself enough to hold yourself to a standard equal or higher than that which you demand of others.  In my case, specifically, my NF chose not to respect me (or anyone, for that matter).  He chose to say cruel things.  He's a master of snarky little insults and putdowns and sneak rage attacks.  Once I decided that all this says something very negative about HIM, not ME, the same standard had to apply to me if I allowed his behavior to dictate my own.  Can't have it both ways.  This is not to deny the hurt he caused and continues to try to cause, given the opportunity.  In schoolyard parlance, "he started it," at least where my generation is concerned (though I suspect his father started it, and perhaps his father's father as well, who knows), the point is it's my decision to try to end it, for the sake of the rest of my life, however I can.  Therefore, I take him at his word, and insist I be taken at mine.  I don't assign subtext, I reply directly and without the anger he's trying to provoke, and his every little jibe just fizzles.  Once he even resorted to the tried and true "you think you're so above it all."  My answer sent him into rageaholic orbit, because I just said, "I don't think that, actually, I still have a lot of insecurity, I still see myself as worthless at times.  But I'm trying, every day, to rise above it all, and be the best and highest person I can, and it helps to know you see me that way."  Poor thing! 

[Certain Hope]

Therefore, I take him at his word, and insist I be taken at mine.  I don't assign subtext, I reply directly and without the anger he's trying to provoke, and his every little jibe just fizzles.

Superb, Gjazz!!!   

And I'm taking notes on this:

Once he even resorted to the tried and true "you think you're so above it all."  My answer sent him into rageaholic orbit, because I just said, "I don't think that, actually, I still have a lot of insecurity, I still see myself as worthless at times.  But I'm trying, every day, to rise above it all, and be the best and highest person I can, and it helps to know you see me that way."  Poor thing! 

      

Thanks!!

Sincerely,
Carolyn

[gjazz]

It was hard for me to learn that words used as weapons can be defused like real bombs.  My NF's habit is to try to control responses to his aggression by assigning beliefs/positions/arguments to others.  It is common for him to start a sentence with "YOU think..." or "It's YOUR opinion that..."  This is intended to put me (or whomever he's addressing) on the defensive.  His needing to do this right out of the gate signals, to me, a fundamental weakness: he's afraid that if he can't dictate the conversation, he'll hear something that hurts.  But you know something?  He's doing it less and less.  It's like, once he realized it's not so dangerous to listen after all, he'll give it the occasional try.

[dandylife]

gjazz,
very interesting your experience with your NF.

With some people, it takes a certain response to "get on their level". Then, it's almost like magic, they look in your eyes and are seing you for the first time.

Dandylife

[CB123]

Once he even resorted to the tried and true "you think you're so above it all." 

Gjazz,

That's a pretty typical ploy when someone has absolutely no other defense to offer.  If it's any consolation, its the ultimate last-ditch weapon. 

The ultimate ad hominem attack--not on your faults that could disqualify from your position, but on your good opinion of yourself being the reason why you are disqualified to speak.  Very N.

Love
CB

[gjazz]

Right.  Accusations leveled under the guise of "honesty" has always been one of his tricks.  In my late teens I told him that if he wanted to know how I felt about something, or my opinion on a matter, etc., he could ask.  If he "assigned" me a position, I would simply assume he was really talking about himself, because so often, he was.  "You don't know what love is."  "You aren't capable of loving anyone."  "You're not worth anything anyway."  ALL these things, I honestly believe, he felt at some level about himself, and he wasn't (isn't) man enough to face them, so he threw them at the most vulnerable person around.  When I told him I would always replace "you" in these sorts of comments with "I," it opened up a whole new range of responses when he hurled them.  Oddly enough, even compassion.  Rarely, but it did crop up now and then.  It was pretty hard to act on it because he sees compassion as weakness and steps up the attack, so I'd only go there if I had the time and energy.

[debkor]

gjazz,

Yes, Yes, Yes... I also have heard the conversations about how I feel... which is really how he feels.. then about how he feels about other people doing... wrong things.. which was really him... but answered through examples of other people.. even presidents.... Long and extensive with details... but something he would never think of or has done..... lonnng.. extensive..and detailed....along with statistics.....this is when he was really feeling pressure..... then after the answer.......that look... the glazed over mystified eyes... like when you are in love and gazing into the others eyes....only it was with himself... he was so pleased, so taken back, so in love, with himself.. his answers... he just glorified himself.. he was truly mystified by his own self....

Has any of you ever seen a look like that...it was so bizarre.....the watery, glazed..starry eyed look.......

Love
Deb

[gjazz]

Debkor:

Oh yes.  The Presidents!  Mine too!  So bizarre.  And yes, I've seen that look you describe.  Generally, when he knew he'd be holding court (ie people over for dinner, etc), he'd prepare his speeches and arguments and etc. mentally, then lay them out, proudly, for all to admire, and sit back with that glazed look on his face, as though he could actually hear the applause (none was forthcoming, more likely an uncomfortable clearing of the throat or, more likely, another cork popping somewhere in the background).

[dandylife]

gjazz & deb,

I don't really get that glazed look, but I do get a giddiness and anticipation when he knows he'll have people around.

It can shift really fast. He can be hammering into me about something he's unhappy with, the phone will ring and without further ado, he's all charming and kind and nice.

He used to do this to me when we had cats. We had a sweet, sweet little cat and he'd get mad at me and go right over to her and pet her and talk sweet to her and I could tell he was doing it for my benefit. yuk. Like, "look what you're missing out on..."

Dandylife

[gjazz]

Yup.  I've had that dynamic too!  Amazing how the patterns play out over and over.

[debkor]

Me too Dandy and gjazz....... only the dog... and inbetween telling me off... by the way do we have milk.. then back to the conversation.. then raising of the eyebrows at the end and say.. I still love you anyway... give me a kiss..

Or did you get full details that they can remember back to when earth was created.. then.. I do not recall.. I do not remember... so then it can't be true....selective memory.. my butt....

Love
Deb

[gjazz]

My NF cannot go back to "earth created" scenarios as he doesn't know enough about the science and has (quite understandably) long denounced all religion.  To the POINT, I might add, of verbally assaulting (privately, with just us) the grandfather of a child murder victim,  saying the child's grandfather should rot in the hell he clearly believes in for defending the murderer, because the grandfather advocated forgiveness.

Yes, yes.  I know.

And I must say that he now has dogs, whom he loves to distraction.  No expense has been spared.   I kid you not when I say: a team of men was hired to go through all the rosebush beds, and there are many, and BY HAND remove every thorn.  So the dogs would not be injured, running through them.  This is a man who tried to kill his (first) wife twice and orphan his four kids.

[teartracks]

Hi dandylife,

You and CB have inspired me to revisit the subject of critical thinking.  Thanks!

I thought these would compliment the list in your opening post.   Some may overlap.

ATTRIBUTES OF A CRITICAL THINKER: 

-asks pertinent questions
 
-assesses statements and arguments 

-is able to admit a lack of understanding or information 

-has a sense of curiosity 

-iinterested in finding new solutions
 
-is able to clearly define a set of criteria for analyzing ideas

-is willing to examine beliefs, assumptions, and opinions and weigh them against facts
 
-listens carefully to others and is able to give feedback
 
-sees that critical thinking is a lifelong process of self-assessment
 
-suspends judgment until all facts have been gathered and considered
 
-looks for evidence to support assumption and beliefs
 
-is able to adjust opinions when new facts are found
 
-looks for proof
 
-examines problems closely

-is able to reject information that is incorrect or irrelevant 

S. Ferret

tt



 

[sea storm]

I am finding this thread really interesting.  However, a lot of it goes over my head and I would love to hear stories or examples.  I guess  I am a visual learner.

The story about the n dad who made a show of loving his dog and getting the thorns removed from the roses plays over and over in my head and I find it helpful.
  ss

[teartracks]

The story about the n dad who made a show of loving his dog and getting the thorns removed from the roses plays over and over in my head and I find it helpful.
ss


Sea Storm,

On reading that, I thought,  Well, you haven't seen the last of this man's demented behavior.  Way off the charts, red flag, heads up.  Dangea, dangea, dangea as Steve Erwin (the crock man) used to say.

tt