My Spiritual Journey

[Hopalong]

Hi, Ami...
It's always risky to confront, or to make observations as I just did.

When someone is smart, and verbally facile, they can say cruel or deceptive things. They can work them into the middle of stuff that sounds true or brave or heroic or whatever.

I think "take your inventory" sounds like intimidation. Like bullying. Kind of like, Who Do You Think You Are? to challenge me? THIS IS HONESTLY HOW I READ IT. It doesn't mean I'm correct. I am not attached to being correct.

I am not challenging you because I want to fight with you, Ami. Really, I have no interest. I don't see how being another enemy for you to use your voice on would be in any way useful for you. Or for me, for that matter. But I am challenging you about your aggression sometimes, because on some level, I am reaching out to you. I'm not your enemy because I am making the observation. I am not feeling anger toward you.

I think one of the things about my life is that when I sense rage simmering in people, I tend to flow toward them, not away. I think that rage or anger or threats are always a cover for fear or hurt. I am used to the rage in the air and I kind of tune into some softer currents that are underneath it. I have no idea who elected me Flower-Toward. Maybe that's one of my own manifestations of narcissism. I dunno.

I am not skilled nor righteous in doing any of that. It's my inner beagle and she is no alpha. But what I try to do sometimes is to disregard the rage and flow a little toward the other things that I think are beneath the rage. The hurt or fear. Those are what I sense when I hear the sound of threats or bullying.

Of course, I am basically a coward. Online is a safe way to practice having dialogue, even with people who are capable of cruelty or bullying. And usually...I wind up stopping. Since I don't like to fight, there is nothing for me to win. And eventually, since most bullies will never stop hitting, I just wander away in order to have peace.

If you're wondering if I'm interested in receiving your "inventory"? Hmmm. Let me think...

I don't mind if you'd like to help me see something about myself, Ami. I know I've been critical of you here. So if the impulse is to be critical back, I don't blame you.

And whether I enjoy it or not, there might be some truth in it I could think about today.

love
Hops

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
 I wrote the inventory thing before I read your whole post, I see that you are trying to look for legitimate answers, I think, so I erased my post and will give YOUR  post the time and thought it deserves,Hops, before I respond.        Ami

[Hopalong]

Wow!

I wasn't expecting that!

Thank you, Ami!

((((((((((((Ami))))))))))),

gosh almighty, it's a good world with surprises like that.

love to you,
Hops

[Ami]

Shucks, Hops! That was sweet!  We will talk later.   Blessings,   Ami

[LilyCat]

Just wanted to pipe in with a meek little voice and say -- anger can absolutely be part of a spiritual journey. Oh boy -- I hate to take this one on, but even if you want to frame "spiritual journey" within the context of Christianity, it's still true. Christ got angry, plenty of times. And he more often than not steered people away from their families, not toward them. Anger has a place there. Without it, how would one fight social injustice? Anger can be a great motivator for things like that.

And it's just a feeling. It's not a negative. Feelings are just feelings. They are not good or bad. They just are. Getting in touch with them is learning who we are. And that, I should think, qualifies as a spiritual journey.

[wiltay]

Amen, LilyCat!  If there is anything 'wrong' about anger it is not being honest about it.

Just wanted to pipe in with a meek little voice and say -- anger can absolutely be part of a spiritual journey. Oh boy -- I hate to take this one on, but even if you want to frame "spiritual journey" within the context of Christianity, it's still true. Christ got angry, plenty of times. And he more often than not steered people away from their families, not toward them. Anger has a place there. Without it, how would one fight social injustice? Anger can be a great motivator for things like that.

And it's just a feeling. It's not a negative. Feelings are just feelings. They are not good or bad. They just are. Getting in touch with them is learning who we are. And that, I should think, qualifies as a spiritual journey.

[gjazz]

I agree, Lilycat, no feelings are right or wrong.  They just are.  I do believe there are very, very wrong ways of expressing them.  I believe my NF was very wrong to take his anger out on me as a child.  I happen to agree with everything Hops has said here, but we differ in one respect: when I see rage simmering, I do not move toward it, I move away.  This is simply a result of having decided, some years ago, that I'd grown up with anger, lived through my own years of rampant rage and prefer, now, to move on.  The bottom line for me, here, I think is that I agree with Hops, plus I admire her for being kinder and perhaps stronger than I, in her determination to help, if indeed help is wanted.

[James]

Gjazz..."lived through my own years of rampant rage and, now, prefer to move on". Gjazz, perhaps if you had not had those years of experiencing rage for yourself you might have not been so free to move on as you have. I think all people who have been injured, especially seriously, feel anger and rage and do have a right to these feelings. Hopefully it doesn't become destructive to others, but it is exactly a child's anger being shut down, by the more powerful parent or other, that prevents the child from being able to process his anger and move on. If the voice of the angry child is denied a very real possibility exists for this anger to transform into rage and then be acted out in terrible ways on innocent people. IMO It's important to remember, that this is just an on-line forum where few people actually know each other. What we feel here, and how we react sometimes, can be more a response from our past issues, how we felt then, rather than now, often times revealing to  us, the internalized voice of the critical parent. In reality it's very safe here, even if we don't feel like it at times. An excellent place for those who want to heal and know themselves better, to practice the art of honesty with feelings.........James

[LilyCat]

Sort of as a generic reply to everyone's comments about anger ...

Whether we feel it or not, acknowledge it or not, if we have anger, it is still there. Feelings are their own reality, one that exists in of itself.

I have often seen my therapist work with fellow group members (and probably me as well) and say that they are afraid of their anger -- afraid of what will happen if they let it out, usually, or sometimes afraid it will consume them, things like that. Sometimes they have been unconsciously afraid that their anger, if released, will hurt someone (emotionally). Things like that.

I guess one doesn't really prioritize feelings, but I place a lot of value on anger. It can be motivating, enlightening, and much more. But, as gjazz says, there are appropriate and inappropriate ways of expressing it (and I suppose all feelings).

For what it's worth, the other night my T said that it's important to know our feelings, but that they shouldn't run our lives. (Let's see, did he say it was then a personality disorder? I think so.) They are just an important piece of information to put into the mix.

James, as always, you are so erudite. God bless you.

[gjazz]

James:  I haven't forgotten any of that, actually. I think the only way to deal with anger is acknowledge it fully.  And yes, we are all at different places here on this board.  What I do believe is that as we have all (or most of us) been through being innocent targets of someone else's rage, and WE feel quite rightly enraged at having had to deal with that, it is only fair we try not to visit on others those abuses which were once visited on us.  I think if that sort of respect belongs anywhere, it really does belong on a board like this one, where people go to explore what has happened, not relive it.

[gjazz]

To clarify: I agree with much has been written here, except perhaps "hopefully it doesn't become destructive to others," only because I would take it farther and say that it will at some level become destructive to others, unless one lives in a void, but I do believe it is our responsibility not to make other people victims as we were.

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
 My sense was that the Spiritual Journey thread had places it needed to go. I did not re-start it as an  "in your face" to any one. I knew that it might appear that way,but it was not done for that purpose. CB attacked me from the beginning of her "return" to the board with "WHAT is this??????? pertaining to me. The gossip thread was an attack on me using the Bible and the Torah. I can defend myself if I am provoked.  If I am attacked, I will fight back and do not feel badly about it.
 I want to address my comments to you, Hops.
 I think that you want to quell strong feelings, anger and other strong emotions. I think that since YOU are uncomfortable with them, your natural response is to try to shut down other people who are having them.I think it is subconscious or semi-conscious. However,it is hurtful to the people you are shutting down, which has been me, on several occasions.
  I think you want yourself and the world to be noble. It IS a good goal. However,  reality is not always noble. That puts you in the position of denying reality within yourself and in others. Denying reality can make you lash out at others, even in 'gentle" ways. Acts of hostility are still such when they are spoken with gentle tones.
 I have been on the recieving end of this, too.
 I know that you want to defend your friends. We,all do. However, knowing yourself and your own reasons would be more beneficial that blind loyalty(for everyone,not just you).
 I try to walk with integrity,  apologize when I am wrong and still am commited to defending myself. I think that I can have all three.   Ami
 
 

[Hopalong]

I see what you're saying, Ami, and there's truth in it. I used to describe myself as anger phobic.

I genuinely can't always tell when I'm responding with an appropriate observation about aggression or bullying, and when I'm trying to hush the sound of anger because it's painful to me. If it feels like I'm suppressing someone else's legitimate anger, then that's not right.

I accept that I can do both.

I'll keep working on trying to discern the difference. And I hope there's a trend toward being constructive rather than repressive. I guess only time and life and a loooooooooong view will bear out how I do.

Anger's a major major puzzle to me. I have a lot to learn about it. The whole assertiveness vs. aggression topic seems to me to hold a lot of valuable clues, but I can still find the boundary between them as hard to detect as one noodle in a bowl of spaghetti. With alfredo.

Thanks for being courteous, Ami. I really appreciate your tone.

love
Hops

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
 *I* appreciate your tone with me, too. I guess most of us have LV's(little voices)  and by definition we don't do anger very well. We are trying to find our voice and it is not always pretty. We were too pretty before, maybe. Now, we are trying to get less pretty and more real.
 I see YOU doing that,Hops. Thank you for letting me be part of the process.     Love   Ami

[Hopalong]

Well said, Ami.

I just had a talk with my inner beagle, and she advised me to take another look. Sigh. I will.  But good tone still, I hope.

I think I was not lashing out nor trying to suppress you when I wrote. I am certain I wasn't feeling hostile. I tuned in carefully to check myself.

That said, I do think I can try to do that with angry or bullying people sometimes. You're right.

I just don't believe I was doing it this time.

I am so quick to abandon my own insights, when sometimes they're worth (for me, within myself) respecting. Doesn't mean I think myself infallible. And I do think I should examine and question myself as thoroughly as I can do others.

That's a lot of work. Tiring. Draining. So usually, I'd rather go waddling off after something else.

I think the issue is haunting to me because bullying was a huuuuuuuuuuuge part of my childhood.

So much to learn. And thanks again for the dialogue, Ami.

Hops