Author Topic: Are you afraid to speak/talk?  (Read 2959 times)

LilyCat

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Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« on: July 17, 2008, 03:39:35 PM »
On a "voicelessness" message board this might fall under the category of -- Duh!!!

-- but --

are any of you actually afraid to speak or talk?

As I was sitting here working it once again, for the thousand-millionth time, hit me how I afraid I am to speak.

I can socialize and schmooze and converse with people with no problem -- you'd think I was quite outgoing -- but when it comes to asking for something for myself or standing up for my rights or just representing myself in general, I am afraid to speak. In other instances, as well. Petrified, would be the word.

I know where this comes from, etc., etc., etc., but I was just curious as to whether any of you actually feel afraid when you talk.

Thanks!!

Dawning

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 05:15:03 PM »
Hi LilyCat,

I experience the same.   This is particularly acute when I feel I may be judged or scapegoated and, interestingly, always seems to maniifest in situations where there is closeness and intimacy.  The closer I get, the more afraid I become.  I wonder if this has anything to do with scapegoating....?  Were you the scapegoat/identified patient in your family?  I was...and it is something I still have not overcome.

I'd like to talk about this more and hear what you have to say.

Love,
Dawning
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Certain Hope

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 10:07:58 PM »
Lily,

I was pretty much a mute for most of my life. Could not speak up for anything... and if I did talk, nobody could hear me. It was awful.

No doubt there is still some residue of this, and so I'll be trying to think more about the circumstances in which it's still a struggle.

First thing that comes to mind is... when I don't trust someone, I have a hard time speaking with them at all, because it just feels like playing some sort of stupid game to even pretend to be having a discussion.
Like the guy who runs some classes that my son is taking. I feel that he misrepresented how the deal would work, but I have been seriously avoiding him because it makes me feel sick to think of confronting the issue. There's really nothing I can do about it, because I signed a contract for these classes, so I've just blown it off... but I probably should speak up. Guess I haven't felt that I could because I'm angry... and because I feel stupid for having fallen for his scam in the first place.

Thanks for this thread!  More as it comes to mind.

Carolyn


LilyCat

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2008, 09:55:22 AM »
Hi Dawning,

You are a new voice to me, but I see you are a senior member -- so, hi! Nice to meet you.

I was the scapegoat in our family. My brother never did this to me, as I remember (or at least much, but I have no memory of him doing this) but I certainly was for my parents and sister. Everything always came down to me. I took the emotional beatings for everyone. After my brother was hurt, it was five thousand times worse. My dad couldn't rage against my mom, so I was the only one left. When his mother came to live with us (she was in her mid 90s) it just went through the roof. I finally was able to move out, thank goodness.

Most of my speechlessness comes from my dad and his anger. He used to go on tirades all the time -- he was either silent -- during which I was always waiting for the rage to erupt -- or yelling and screaming. When he focused his attention on me (or my siblings) it was a long, drawn-out affair; a constant barrage of criticisms and attacks and verbal abuse (mostly telling us how awful we were), and we were to sit there and take it, give no answer or no defense. If we had spoken up, we would have been killed. Or that's how it felt. My therapist has validated this -- that to "speak up" in our family was, in his words, to commit suicide. So I learned very early and very quickly not to speak.

I wasn't "seen," either, which no doubt added to the whole effect. If you aren't seen, who's going to listen?

And with my mother -- well, to get anything I had to "wheedle" it out of her --whine a little, be this good little girl, sort of a combo act that's hard to describe -- and then eventually she might -- might -- relent and I would get what I needed/wanted. But that didn't happen often. So I probably also learned that speaking up for needs was unproductive. I'm guessing.

The fear -- I just brought home some pictures from my dad's house. There's one I had never seen of him and my mother leaning against the sink at my aunt's house for Thanksgiving. It is a younger father that I have no visible memory of -- but I surely have an emotional one, because seeing him in this picture, at that age, I see a horrible, explosive man. Even last night I was seeing this picture in the middle of the night, and feeling the sheer terror. This picture has brought up more than I could have suspected; as much as I've been in touch with many feelings about him over the years, the degree and acuteness of terror and rage that I feel against him when I look at this, are new and huge.

So, Carolyn, I'm thinking/hoping that that is the beginning of getting in touch with my inner child. I found it interesting that it would be a picture of him, not me, that prompted it.

...maybe I'll write more later. Time to get working.

Thanks, ladies!

Overcomer

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2008, 11:23:09 AM »
I went and got my degree as an adult learner.  I wasn't THAT much older but at the time I felt it.  I got it at 29.  I had a baby.  My professor told us to go to this store and look around.  See.  Feel.  Do our due diligence so we could do some advertising and public relations...........I went to the store and it was closed..........I made the mistake of telling the instructor.....I talked in front of the class once more...............he made me feel stupid.  Never talked much in college again....
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

LilyCat

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2008, 03:12:54 PM »
That is so poignant, and so wrong of him.

I'm really glad you told us. And hope you're finding ways to speak now.

((((Overcomer)))))

Lily

Ami

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2008, 03:45:02 PM »
Dear Lily
 When I read your thread, I thought of a deeper issue. I thought of meeting our needs. Maybe, that is just where *I* am. I am noticing needs, for the first time in a long time. 
 I am looking at how I can meet them. I am seeing which ones I can meet myself and which ones need other people. I KNOW I confused this ,greatly. I thought I needed other people to meet most of them. I think *I* need to meet most of them.
 Maybe voicelessness is unmet needs. Maybe, we are not valuing ourselves and we are not meeting our own needs to be unique and express ourselves in a unique way.
 I am just beginning to put together these ideas for myself,so they may not be clear. Just thought I would share them and see what you thought.          Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

LilyCat

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2008, 03:50:23 PM »
Ami, I think you are totally on the right track. Somewhere awhile ago I posted on someone's thread that voicelessness is about speaking, and also about who we are, about finding out who were are and living our lives accordingly, according to our desires.

You are consistently growing, Ami. I see it every time you write.

Blessings to you,

Lily

Ami

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2008, 03:56:31 PM »
You are so sweet,Lily. Thank you!           Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Izzy_*now*

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2008, 04:31:06 PM »
Hi Lilycat

Another person who was scapegoated when growing up.. My eldest sister even said so, when I asked her what her thoughts were of me as a growing child. She then apologized for her part in it, but after 55-60 years I learn this for a fact, and not a notion of my childhood thoughts.

The "group embarrassment" that I remember it best was coming down in the morning into the kitchen and my Dad pointed and laughed at me, about my 'dress' being inside out. He kept pointing and laughing, as did all the kids and my mother said nothing. I crawled into a corner and said "Don't you laugh at me"

In later years, after I was grown, at family gatherings he would often, I do mean often, ask me if I remember always saying "Don't you laugh at me"

That is taunting more than scapegoating, but both are very mean.

My 'dress' was a 2-pce top and bottom/blouse and skirt in a pale green shade of 'washable wool'. Hanging on the line faded it, so that particular morning, I put it on inside out, as the inside was prettier green, not yellow green. Someone could have said it was ingenious of me and let it go and I wouldn't be remembering it now. (Obviously my mother never learned to hang some items inside out!)

BUT, I no longer say "Don't you laugh at me". I determine if anything said bothers me in some way, or is horrible, or lands some place in between, then I speak up.

I know what you mean about the difficulty. I just began about 4 years ago, but in retrospect, I had done it on occasion without knowing I had asserted myself.

Aggressiveness, NO! Assertiveness, YES!

My Dad was physically abusive and I never said a thing to him. Then I was 6 years my with Daughter's Father who became physically abusive and an alcoholic. I told family (who adored him and some wouldn't believe, but he's always behaved around them.) when I left him.

He came to see Daughter and my Mom and Dad welcomed him with open arms. Mom made tea and the 3 of them chatted in the livingroom while I practised typing in the kitchen, and Daughter, 2½, went back and forth. I was furious with them.

Before bed (D and I were staying there) I asked why they would treat the man who beat me, their daughter, like the prodigal son. There were no excuses forthcoming, but Dad was mad as Hell and the anger showed in his eyes. I am 5'10" and he was 5'8" and he was about 6' away. Still holding my eyes with his, he slowly closed the gap between us, to about 1½' so I said, " Here's your chance! Are you going to hit me, AGAIN?" Mom was right there, silent!

He backed off. I was 28. That might have been the first time I stood up for myself
.

LC. Can you give some examples of when you would have liked to have spoken up for yourself? Very often, once does it!

xx
Izzy




"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

Certain Hope

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2008, 07:37:49 PM »
Quote
My 'dress' was a 2-pce top and bottom/blouse and skirt in a pale green shade of 'washable wool'. Hanging on the line faded it, so that particular morning, I put it on inside out, as the inside was prettier green, not yellow green. Someone could have said it was ingenious of me and let it go and I wouldn't be remembering it now.

Well, I think it was ingenious of you (((((Izzy)))))

I would have been mortified to be made the object of so much attention.

One of my dad's favorite things to do at suppertime was to ask me some question which I couldn't answer.
I'd be stone quiet... and he'd mock, saying, what was I going to school for if I couldn't give a good answer.

Now I think I know why. He'd come home from work, have his shots and beers, and I was the mealtime entertainment.
Just three of us at that table... so I was at least 10 (when brother married and left home).
Booze loosened him up to take out his frustrations on the weak link.
Instead of clearing the air of whatever was going on between him and my mother, he used me as his tool to make himself feel bigger and smarter.
And I couldn't say a word.
Kids know when there is no correct answer. For me, there never was.
What's the point of saying anything?

Love,
Carolyn


Dawning

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2008, 12:03:22 AM »
Regarding this thread:

It occurred to me, what specifically are we identifying with when we are afraid to speak/talk?  And could we not turn this fear into a force for change?...the closest thing I can think of is feeling "growing pains."

The responses to this thread have been so beautiful even in their sorrow.  And, you know, the culture that I just came out of - after 17 years as an ex-pat living there - produced all their greatest art and literature on the premise that sorrow and beauty are interlinked.  It all got a bit much for me (the pathos) but I still appreciate the potential for transformation when the sorrow is recognized and accepted as a kind of beauty.

LilyCat, have you ever gone to a Toast Masters meeting?  I knew someone who struggled with being afraid to speak and it helped her tremendously - she became a well-known theater actress!  I'm not saying that should happen to all of us but she transformed something deep inside herself.

It seems like it is not so much the "not speaking/talking issue", but the being "afraid" part.  How can we transform our fear?

Dawning.

"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

SoSmall

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2008, 11:22:05 PM »
Hi LilyCat, I wrote almost the exact same post as you did a long while back.  And also your dad sounds exactlly like mine.  We had very similar childhoods.  Sometimes my mouth will feel sealed shut.  Literally,  i am so terrified to open it that my lips feel sealed to the point that i couldn't physically open them if i did want to speak.  I have noticed this alot at work.  any situation where i might be asking someone to stop or change what they are doing renders me too scared to speak.  to ask someone to change what they are doing would be in a way telling them they were wrong and telling my dad he was wrong would have amounted in hell.

My dad picked on me.  yelled at me for hours and hours.  everything i did was wrong.  everything that went wrong in the house was my fault.  everything.  if i argued it just continued and got worse and would become physically abusive.  and i had a strong spirit so sometimes i tried to reason or argue.  and my mom would get mad at me and tell me again and again to keep my mouth shut.  and eventually i learned to do so.  like you i was supposed to sit there and just take it and take it.  hence my user name.  "Sosmall"  that is what i tried to become invisible.  small.  just take the hate and yelling and hopefully he'd go away. 

 i rememember his footsteps ...... they still scare me.  he'd yell at me, he'd go in his room ... then after some lengthy time i'd hear him get up from bed and come pounding through the house to come yell more.  hours and hours and hours.  irrational stuff.  no matter how hard i tried it was wrong.  no matter what went wrong in the house it was my fault.  one of the wrost things he would do was wake me up out of a dead sleep at like 6am yelling at me.  Yelling because there were beans left in the sink from when i did dishes the night before.  yelling because my feet were sticking out from under the covers and i was going to get sick.  It was a nightmare.

as an adult.  I can't speak (like you mentioned).  Like for example a girl picked up my magazine during our lunch break and began reading it.  I wanted it to read but couldn't for the life of me just ask her for it.  oh well.  but i also take everything anyone says to me as a judgement.  i constantly feel that i am being judged.  And my poor husband can't ask me anything without me feeling like i did wrong.  If i pick the restaraunt and my husband says, "I don't like the cheese on this burger."  .... For the life of me I can't help but feel terrible for picking the restaraunt, ruining the meal, causing all lifes problems on and on .....  i try to rationalize.  But all i hear is my dad yelling at me.

one good thing that came from it is my ability to really read other peoples feelings.  did you constantly have to be aware of your dad's feelings and moods..... because 1) you had to be ready for the yelling and 2) you were supposedly the cause of every bad mood he was in right?  well now I can always sense when others are uncomfortable, sad, mad all sorts of stuff.  I also feel i have strong intuition.  you just have to be aware of soooo much when your childhood is like that.

oh well sounds like we had a very similar childhood.  just know you are not alone. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 11:37:58 PM by SoSmall »

Ami

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2008, 08:27:26 AM »
Just wanted to say "Hello", So Small. I remember your story and how eloquently you wrote it.                    Warmly,   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

LilyCat

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Re: Are you afraid to speak/talk?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2008, 09:48:38 AM »
Oh, SoSmall, you bring tears to my eyes -- for you, not for me.

I do know exactly what you're talking about -- it does sound like we had almost identical childhoods -- except that my father never woke me up.

That is so awful about him waking you because your feet were sticking out from the covers (which happens to be the way I like to sleep! Feet hanging off the mattress slightly.) Do you understand that you were just a small, vulnerable child and how wrong that was of him? And he knew it. He may not have acknowledged it consciously, but down in there somewhere, he knew what he was doing was wrong. He had an obvious need for power and to dominate. I am so sorry for what you went through; and I know the pain of having a mother who either tacitly colluded with him. My mother used to say "don't upset your father" and through her submissiveness gave me a very poor example of how to deal with men and family and life. (Yet, she was really a tiger underneath. She did a lot of bad stuff to me, while looking innocent on the outside.)

You know, it's funny: I completely thought I had forgiven my father. After my mother died we became quite close. I really enjoyed his company and, although he was highly regimented and somewhat difficult in that way, I loved going to see him once a month (he lived several hours away) and had many good times with him during those years. I finally had the father I'd never had.

It helped enormously, but he died last October. Lately (this month) as I've been struggling so hard with the abuse of my pastor, I've felt the old, enormous anger at my dad coming back up. I think it was just a 10-year truce. I have been very puzzled as to why I haven't grieved for him, practically at all. I think this is why. I think 40 years of monsterdom outdoes 10 years of goodness. Hate to say it, but I think it's true.

Many of my friends here have talked to me about getting in touch with my inner child, which I'm trying to do. They recommended putting pictures of myself as a child around the house as a way to start. I found quite a few at my dad's place, so I brought them back with me. I commented just this week in group that what I saw was this very quiet, very serious little girl. She never looked happy in any of them.

In fact, I saw a baby picture for the very first time, and I don't look good in it. I think perhaps even by the time the photo was taken (not sure how old, maybe 6 months?) I already wasn't getting needs met and knew it.

Anyway, when I described this to my therapist, he said it was probably as he'd always thought, that even by the time I was 4 or  5, I learned that I had to keep my mouth shut. So I'm sure the same is true for you.

I'm trying to think of what I did that helped me learn to speak up, although I'm not there 100%. It seems to me that I was doing much better 10 years ago. Ironically, I've always thought that the last time I was really good at speaking up -- really on a role -- was when I went in to meet with this same pastor 10 years ago, during his first year. I let him have it (in a very honest but not critical way) for not calling when my brother and mother died. He said he didn't think it was the responsibility of a senior pastor to do it (he was our only pastor at the time). Boy, I wish I'd gotten the clue then!!

SoSmall, the very best thing I did for myself, in my whole life, was to go into group therapy. I have a therapist who really understood the issue about speaking and speaking up. He has been wonderful. Sometimes I get very embarrassed about having been in group for 20 years (yes, my anniversary is coming up soon) -- but it is the only, only place where I think I could have learned to open my mouth. The people who were in it when I first joined were very vocal. They all wanted their "time" and they all could talk; there were also more of us then. It was difficult to learn to join in. I think I wrote that my therapist told me to just open my mouth, I didn't even have to make a sound, and he would know that I wanted to say something. And that's what we did. It took enormous encouragement and intervention (in the group) from him to get me going. I really didn't talk for the first 4-5 years I was in there. Now you can't shut me up. (I do try. We happen to have less vocal people now. Very different. I miss the old days.)

So, that would be the thing I would really, really recommend. It's hard to find good groups, and a good group therapist, but see if you can find something. It will change your life.

I understand, too, about the criticism and sensitivity to it and feeling responsible for everything. SoSmall, it sounds to me that you, like me, were made to feel responsible for everything.

You weren't. You were a little child, and your parents were responsible for you. They failed miserably. They were responsible for all the things they accused you of. Every time you feel criticized or responsible for something, tell yourself that you aren't. (Unless you really are, like feeding the dog or something.) Take a step back, look at what's going on, and assess whether you would hold a friend or someone else accountable for it. I think that might help. It takes a lot of repetition to cure these things, but you can do it.

I think my inability to talk and the way my parents shut down my feelings, are the reasons why I'm a writer and why I am such an expressive musician on my instrument. The french horn is known for a lot of beauty, but I am particularly blessed with an expressive ability (not so much the technical). I play it almost like an oboe player. I think that's because when I finally got to a higher level of playing at college, I worked with a woodwind professor in a ww quintet and really found this expressive ability. It was a genuine outlet for all the feelings I couldn't express.

I was so touched by your story of the magazine at lunch. Perhaps you could look for opportunities like this to practice. Or maybe you have a really trusted friend with whom you could share all this, and ask her/him to help you. Maybe devise a system like the one I had for group. Have a really honest friendship where she understands what you're working toward and will support you.

I know I will. SoSmall, anything you need, please ask. I think a lot of this also stems from a sense of entitlement -- that you are entitled to say something and that what you have to say is just as valid as anyone else. That's something I still struggle with, greatly. (My biggest issue is entitlement to anything, since my parents seldom gave me anything and took what I did value away -- music lessons, dance lessons, my horse, etc.)

I really mean that. Let's work on this together. I would feel so privileged to walk by your side on your journey with this. I'm all yours.

xoxo,

LilyCat

PS -- and yes, you're right. I did develop that sixth sense as a protective measure. I always had to have my radar up with my father. It was self protection.

More hugs, SoSmall! And I think you should make one change by putting your name in all caps. I know that's not what most of us do, but I think it would be very symbolic and important to you.

(I hope I don't sound too bossy here. I'm not bossy at all. I rarely give people advice.)