Finally severing ties with family

[Jynna]

Hello everyone, I am back here after about three years in need of a little support.  I found this board back when I first starting going to therapy.  My therapist and husband helped me see that my parents have a personality disorder and altho she didn't want to diagnose them without seeing them, she felt that they had strong narcissistic tendencies.

Reading this board 3 years ago, along with my therapy, really helped me.

So, things had started to settle down with me and my parents.  My therapist helped me to define some clear boundaries for them.  This was so hard and new for me. 

One boundary that my husband and I set for my parents was that they weren't to see or talk to our kids without us knowing about it.   They had to talk to us first before talking to the kids.  This was because my parents would go behind our backs and try to set up times to see our kids without us knowing. 

They would talk to the kids and the kids would assume we knew about it and then they'd show up at our house all ready to take the kids out.  When we'd balk at this, they would act all innocent.  "gosh, we thought the kids told you.... gee whiz, we just want to take them to a movie, what's the big deal?"  etc etc. 

The implication was that we were totally over-reacting because how could we deny a grandparent access to their grandchild?  It was more difficult because, of course, the kids would be disappointed if they thought they were going to do something fun and we weren't letting them.

Anyway, we made a hard and fast boundary, "if you don't talk to us first, you may not see the kids."  We explained this to our kids who are now old enough to understand it pretty well. (they're now 15, 11 and 9)

My parents pushed this boundary a lot for about a year, but then they seemed to be getting the picture. 

Still, there were bumps in the road and many times I would find myself making excuses for them.  I sometimes bought into their song and dance routine.

Just an example of them violating this boundary this fall:  My stepmom came over to our house when she knew that both me and my husband wouldn't be home. (All she needed to do was call us first and let us know, but she didn't.) However, my kids wouldn't let her in because they told her they didn't have permission to have any visitors while we were gone.  Wow, I was so proud of my kids that day and I thought it sucked that they had to be in that position.

Well, that was biggest violation until a couple weeks ago.

My oldest was turning 15 on the weekend.  In the past, we'd have a family birthday party for her with grandparents, etc.  But, she has way outgrown that stuff.  She just wanted a sleepover and trip to the mall with her friends.

I think my stepmom was annoyed that we weren't having an official family party for her.  So, she took it upon herself to throw one.  She works in the school district that my kids attend.  She went to my daughter's cafeteria and decorated a table with signs and balloons saying "Happy Birthday from Grandma" and made a cake, etc.  My daughter walked into the cafeteria to this huge scene with the kids who usually sit at that table angry at her for taking their spot and everyone else staring at her wondering "what the heck??"

She was mortified. 

Now, some kids might love having that kind of attention, but if you know my daughter for even 5 minutes, you would know that she is not one of those kids.

She was so embarrassed.

This "party" was not about doing something nice for my daughter, it was about showing off what an awesome grandma she has.

Anyway, so, my husband and I went to talk to my parents about this issue.  Once again, talking about our boundary of not seeing the kids without telling us.  We were so careful with our words, we didn't yell, we used a calm serious tone. 

Of course, they blew up.  How could we be so callous?  Here they go to the trouble of giving our daughter a fun party at school and we just don't appreciate it. and on and on....  It ended with them telling us to "get out the f-ing door!"  (This was a shock to me, my parents have always had a thing against using the f word.)

Okay, so that was that.  I was done.  In the past I had hoped that we could keep some kind of relationship if my husband and I were just more assertive with our boundaries.  But, to have them behave this way was too much.

But, this is not the end of the story.

Of all things, they wrote me a letter apologizing!!  I was shocked.  They have never apologized for anything, believe me.  This was huge.

Of course, the apology is a little lacking, they said, "It is regretful that we were all angry and couldn't use this time to communicate further."  Not quite accepting responsibility, is it?

However, I felt pulled back in by them.  Why can they pull me in so easily?  Why do I keep hoping that this will be the time that they start treating me like they care about my feelings?

Well, I stewed about their letter for a week and I wrote them a response.  I told them that I was happy they wrote me the letter, but I only feel saddened that things had to get this bad before they would try to apologize.  I told them that caring how I feel should be the starting point, not their last resort.  And I told them that our relationship is done.

This was really hard to do.  But, I believe that it is the only option anymore.  The fact that they can't honor so simple a request, "please let us know before seeing the kids." -- I mean, how hard is that???

If you have hung in with me this far in reading this-- THANK YOU! --  It really helps just to type it out.  But if you have any feedback for me I'd love to hear it.   I feel so exhausted dealing with them.  I am sick of spending so much energy on this relationship that isn't really even a relationship.

[Izzy_*now*]

I'm so sorry about this for the sake of your children, ---then for you and your husband, but it appears you have it under control...?

Now this statement "It is regretful that we were all angry and couldn't use this time to communicate further." " is not accepting responsibility.

More to the point would be, "I am sorry that I took it upon myself to set up that party without consulting you two and 'the child' , as I forgot that children make changes in their desires as they grow, year by year!"---whatever, like that somewhat!

I had an apology for something someone said, that upset me terribly, and I told him on the phone. He didn't remember saying it, but I have remembered since June 5, 1970.  He, not being on Internet, wrote me a note and said," I am sorry your feelings were hurt by what I said".

I found that after 3 tries I could not respond to him, as I would have to go back to the beginnig, 42 years ago, and the mini-book would have been about 84 pages long! I have still not replied.

My thought was that if he said, "I am sorry for what I said. Your feelings must have been terribly hurt because of my insensitivity"

His note took no responsibility. My idea shows that he would apologize, admitting he was sorry for what he had said.

We must all be so careful that what we are saying is meaning what we mean.

So Step-mom was mortified, but she had only herself to hold responsible, with no consultation. The End!

Think before acting, speaking etc. Pause to reflect on the situation.

Could you reword to her what you would consider to be a 'proper apology' without her insinuating that EVERYBODY was angry???  you were taken aback, so was your daughter, no notice of a surprise.... yada yada.

(Frankly I HATE surprises, as my hair might be in curlers, and I'm not wearing a bra! People have to THINK!)

Hang in there
Izzy

[lighter]

It does seem a very simple rule.....

to notify you when they want to see the kids.

That they continue to defy you....

 when it's all they have to do to see the kids.....

says something about how important it is to run over your feelings.

That they claim it's so important to see the kids makes it confusing..... bc they don't do the one little thing required.

Going out of her way to set up an innapropriate bd party for your daughter was hard work.

Simply picking up the phone and mentioning a visit..... isn't.

It's a bait and switch..... they want you to peceive their efforts to see the kids as hard work, not stomping your feelings, which it most certainly is, at this point. (Considering all the conversations you;ve had about it)

It's improbable and confusing and I'm sorry you have to go through this but..... it's a realistic boundary and one they should have respected if they wanted to see their Grandkids.
 
They won't ever see it your way....

they won't ever understand.

That you and your family understand should be enough, right?

Then why does it still hurt so much?

BC it's so irrational and makes no sense.... and we all want life to make sense.

Don't kee trying to make sense of something that will never make any sense.

They're flawed, they can't do any better or they would.

They can't.

((((Jynna))))

You sound like you've been perfectly reasonable.

You can't control their behavior.

Unfortunately, neither can they: (

[Jynna]

Thank you so much, Izzy.

I'm so sorry about this for the sake of your children, ---then for you and your husband, but it appears you have it under control...?

 On one hand, I'm behaving like I have it under control, but underneath I'm a bundled of doubts and second guessing myself.

At this point, I keep trying to tell myself, even if my boundaries are totally out of line, I have a right to set my boundaries wherever I want.

[Jynna]

It does seem a very simple rule.....

to notify you when they want to see the kids.

That they continue to defy you....

 when it's all they have to do to see the kids.....

says something about how important it is to run over your feelings.

That they claim it's so important to see the kids makes it confusing..... bc they don't do the one little thing required.

Going out of her way to set up an innapropriate bd party for your daughter was hard work.

Simply picking up the phone and mentioning a visit..... isn't.

It's a bait and switch..... they want you to peceive their efforts to see the kids as hard work, not stomping your feelings, which it most certainly is, at this point. (Considering all the conversations you;ve had about it)

It's improbable and confusing and I'm sorry you have to go through this but..... it's a realistic boundary and one they should have respected if they wanted to see their Grandkids.
 
They won't ever see it your way....

they won't ever understand.

That you and your family understand should be enough, right?

Then why does it still hurt so much?

BC it's so irrational and makes no sense.... and we all want life to make sense.

Don't kee trying to make sense of something that will never make any sense.

They're flawed, they can't do any better or they would.

They can't.

((((Jynna))))

You sound like you've been perfectly reasonable.

You can't control their behavior.

Unfortunately, neither can they: (

Oh wow, Motherof2, I might have to print this out and carry it in my pocket. 

It doesn't make any sense.  Why can't they just call us and talk to us about seeing the kids????  You are so right, how hard is that?

But, if they do, they might not get to do exactly what they want, they might have to check to see when it's convenient for us.

And yet I keep thinking, do they really care so little for how I feel?  Is it me who's being unreasonable? 

When they sent the apology, even though it's a flawed one, I was feeling like I should try to meet them halfway. Again.  (I mean, you don't know how many times I've given in to them over the years.)

But, this time, when I thought about how things would be if I did give them another chance, it clicked for me that it wouldn't be different.  The only way for this to be different, is for me to be a totally different person.  A person who doesn't care about my feelings or a person who is a bigger bully than them.  I can't do either of those things.

[BonesMS]

Hello everyone, I am back here after about three years in need of a little support.  I found this board back when I first starting going to therapy.  My therapist and husband helped me see that my parents have a personality disorder and altho she didn't want to diagnose them without seeing them, she felt that they had strong narcissistic tendencies.

Reading this board 3 years ago, along with my therapy, really helped me.

So, things had started to settle down with me and my parents.  My therapist helped me to define some clear boundaries for them.  This was so hard and new for me. 

One boundary that my husband and I set for my parents was that they weren't to see or talk to our kids without us knowing about it.   They had to talk to us first before talking to the kids.  This was because my parents would go behind our backs and try to set up times to see our kids without us knowing. 

They would talk to the kids and the kids would assume we knew about it and then they'd show up at our house all ready to take the kids out.  When we'd balk at this, they would act all innocent.  "gosh, we thought the kids told you.... gee whiz, we just want to take them to a movie, what's the big deal?"  etc etc. 

The implication was that we were totally over-reacting because how could we deny a grandparent access to their grandchild?  It was more difficult because, of course, the kids would be disappointed if they thought they were going to do something fun and we weren't letting them.

Anyway, we made a hard and fast boundary, "if you don't talk to us first, you may not see the kids."  We explained this to our kids who are now old enough to understand it pretty well. (they're now 15, 11 and 9)

My parents pushed this boundary a lot for about a year, but then they seemed to be getting the picture. 

Still, there were bumps in the road and many times I would find myself making excuses for them.  I sometimes bought into their song and dance routine.

Just an example of them violating this boundary this fall:  My stepmom came over to our house when she knew that both me and my husband wouldn't be home. (All she needed to do was call us first and let us know, but she didn't.) However, my kids wouldn't let her in because they told her they didn't have permission to have any visitors while we were gone.  Wow, I was so proud of my kids that day and I thought it sucked that they had to be in that position.

Well, that was biggest violation until a couple weeks ago.

My oldest was turning 15 on the weekend.  In the past, we'd have a family birthday party for her with grandparents, etc.  But, she has way outgrown that stuff.  She just wanted a sleepover and trip to the mall with her friends.

I think my stepmom was annoyed that we weren't having an official family party for her.  So, she took it upon herself to throw one.  She works in the school district that my kids attend.  She went to my daughter's cafeteria and decorated a table with signs and balloons saying "Happy Birthday from Grandma" and made a cake, etc.  My daughter walked into the cafeteria to this huge scene with the kids who usually sit at that table angry at her for taking their spot and everyone else staring at her wondering "what the heck??"

She was mortified. 

Now, some kids might love having that kind of attention, but if you know my daughter for even 5 minutes, you would know that she is not one of those kids.

She was so embarrassed.

This "party" was not about doing something nice for my daughter, it was about showing off what an awesome grandma she has.

Anyway, so, my husband and I went to talk to my parents about this issue.  Once again, talking about our boundary of not seeing the kids without telling us.  We were so careful with our words, we didn't yell, we used a calm serious tone. 

Of course, they blew up.  How could we be so callous?  Here they go to the trouble of giving our daughter a fun party at school and we just don't appreciate it. and on and on....  It ended with them telling us to "get out the f-ing door!"  (This was a shock to me, my parents have always had a thing against using the f word.)

Okay, so that was that.  I was done.  In the past I had hoped that we could keep some kind of relationship if my husband and I were just more assertive with our boundaries.  But, to have them behave this way was too much.

But, this is not the end of the story.

Of all things, they wrote me a letter apologizing!!  I was shocked.  They have never apologized for anything, believe me.  This was huge.

Of course, the apology is a little lacking, they said, "It is regretful that we were all angry and couldn't use this time to communicate further."  Not quite accepting responsibility, is it?

However, I felt pulled back in by them.  Why can they pull me in so easily?  Why do I keep hoping that this will be the time that they start treating me like they care about my feelings?

Well, I stewed about their letter for a week and I wrote them a response.  I told them that I was happy they wrote me the letter, but I only feel saddened that things had to get this bad before they would try to apologize.  I told them that caring how I feel should be the starting point, not their last resort.  And I told them that our relationship is done.

This was really hard to do.  But, I believe that it is the only option anymore.  The fact that they can't honor so simple a request, "please let us know before seeing the kids." -- I mean, how hard is that???

If you have hung in with me this far in reading this-- THANK YOU! --  It really helps just to type it out.  But if you have any feedback for me I'd love to hear it.   I feel so exhausted dealing with them.  I am sick of spending so much energy on this relationship that isn't really even a relationship.

Hi, Jynna!

I hear you and I can relate!  It is so frustrating to have your boundaries violated time and again in spite of continuous reminders!  No wonder that going NC become necessary!  I applaud you for sticking to your guns!

Bones

[teartracks]

Hy Jynna,

One thing I never understood is that grandparents often assume that they not only got to raise their kids the way they wanted to, but they get to raise yours too.  Wrong! 

I have a daughter in law that I admire a lot for the way she handled extended 'family' issues.  Like every family we have our fair share of craziness throughout.  As the kids were able to understand, she set about explaining some of the wrongheaded behaviors of others without villifying them.  She explained that their behavior was unacceptable  and that their family model  was different and why.  She saw early on what might be coming  and turned it into an opportunity to teach the kids about human behavior.  Little by little, they came to understand that they would regularly encounter rude, thoughtless, overbearing, manipulative, people but that their model for behavior was different.   

tt

[lighter]

Jynna:

I'm having similar issues and it's so frustrating that the Grands can't just "do the right thing."

By right thing.... I mean what's best for the children.

If they phoned and checked with you, all would be well and the kids wouldn't feel in the middle.... they'd have their visit... the Grands would have theirs.

But noooooooooo it can't just be that simple and that's nothing you can control.

All you can control are your boundaries.

Remember, you're teaching your children how to set,

and defend,

boundaries through your actions.

This is important.

That your parents can't respect other people's boundaries..... is their problem. 

It doesn't have to be yours.

I really like that you're remaining calm when dealing with this craziness.

You can feel good about behaving like an appropriate adult and your children will benefit from your example.

[Hopalong]

And yet I keep thinking, do they really care so little for how I feel?

YES. They care so little.

And the reason you keep meeting them halfway (iow, 89%) is because you have not stopped hoping.

For THESE relationships, you need to stop hoping it will ever be any different.

That frees you to open your life, and your children's, to happy positive chosen-family relationships that ARE different.

(Taken me 50+ years to get that letting go of hope is a GOOD thing. Reality is our friend. Once you grieve it, you are free.)

((((Jynna))))

Hops

[Jynna]

I don't know how to thank you all enough.  Thank you for being so understanding. You don't know how much it helps.

I feel bad popping in on this board when I haven't been here in so long.  But today is the day they will receive my letter and I'm a bundle of nerves thinking about it. 

I don't know what their reaction will be, I'm hoping for none.  They've been known to come over to my house to chew me out and I'm scared about that happening.  My husband is gone all this week for his job and I'm feeling very vulnerable.
(I don't mean that they would be violent or dangerous... just emotionally so.)

[debkor]

I had once had a birthday party thrown for me by ex That there was nothing mistaken and I was loud and clear of my plans that I had wanted to take place (for my birthday) and it was not a party. 

I had gotten wind of this was to take place and again even 3 days before my birthday Please do not do anything to change my plans already made..well Ya know...didn't happen.

And Ofcourse everything was changed and I was met with SURPRISE and was horrified and upset and had to do the best to Phony it up (for the sake of my friends) who all turned up truly to celebrate my birthday.  They were innocent to everything.

Afterwards, I had the big Bru-ha-ha with Ex over How could have done this to me.  He really truly didn't get it.  Do they ever?


Later on (I was in T at the time) the T asked me, but don't you think that it was done with thought for you?  A nice thing even though it turned out not that way?

They just don't think clear and don't read between the lines and only see (eveb when you out loud say I don't Want This)...What they Want for You.

So yes I do think that it was a Good Gesture (on ex's part) with the way They Think even if it makes you miserable because they just DON"T GET IT and that time (I believe it was done for Me) even though I didn't want it.

But not with bad intentions Just From N intentions.  They don't think right.

Love
Deb

[BonesMS]

I don't know how to thank you all enough.  Thank you for being so understanding. You don't know how much it helps.

I feel bad popping in on this board when I haven't been here in so long.  But today is the day they will receive my letter and I'm a bundle of nerves thinking about it. 

I don't know what their reaction will be, I'm hoping for none.  They've been known to come over to my house to chew me out and I'm scared about that happening.  My husband is gone all this week for his job and I'm feeling very vulnerable.
(I don't mean that they would be violent or dangerous... just emotionally so.)

(((((((((((((Jynna))))))))))))))

One of the things I learned when dealing with abusive relatives is that I did NOT have to open my door to them!  When they threatened me, I calmly informed them that my home was MY home and if they attempted to force themselves anywhere near my front door, uninvited, the police would be waiting for them!  They backed down!

Bones

[teartracks]

Hi ((((Jynna)))),

I'm a grandparent of eight.  They are my heart.  I fear that my previous post could have been interpreted to minimize the importance of grandparents in the lives of their grandchildren.  I didn't mean to do that.  On the other hand, it can't be denied that some grandparents do cause havoc and harm to their grandchildren if not kept in check by loving and informed parents.  It sounds like you are making a valiant effort to do the right thing.  I wish you the best and I pray for things to calm down and for peace to reign in your home.

tt 

[mudpuppy]

Why can't they just call us and talk to us about seeing the kids????

Because they want to control you and your kids.
Good riddance, I say.

mud

[Jynna]

Hi ((((Jynna)))),

I'm a grandparent of eight.  They are my heart.  I fear that my previous post could have been interpreted to minimize the importance of grandparents in the lives of their grandchildren.  I didn't mean to do that.  On the other hand, it can't be denied that some grandparents do cause havoc and harm to their grandchildren if not kept in check by loving and informed parents.  It sounds like you are making a valiant effort to do the right thing.  I wish you the best and I pray for things to calm down and for peace to reign in your home.

tt 

thanks, tt.  I know what you're saying about grandchildren.  One of the reasons I've tried so hard with my parents is that I hoped that we could work something out where they could be a positive relationship in my kids' lives.

And I know how much it's going to hurt my parents not to see their grandkids.  It's so sad.

But, it just isn't to be. 

I am blessed because my husband's mother is a wonderful person and a wonderful grandma to my kids.  So my kids aren't lacking in that area.

But I know it will hurt my parents tremendously.  I don't want to hurt them, but they've made it impossible to do it any other way.   They are repeating the same pattern that they did with me and my siblings.  I could see it more clearly when they did it to my kids, where i used to make excuses when they behaved badly with me.

One reason I went into therapy was because of my children and wanting things to be better for them.  That started me on a whole journey of discovery.  My whole life I thought that my difficult relationship with my parents was my fault.

I want to thank everyone again for your feedback... today was a rough one for me, but I am feeling so much better and stronger.  I feel like the decision is the right one.  It feels good.