How does a N child associate with his/her N parent?

[Lucky]

I think my sister and I have been damaged but have not become N's ourselves. However I am wondering what the difference is between N children and "normal" children (also when adults) with regard to associating with the N parent.

By the way I still find it hard to tell if somebody has N traits but is not a N or if the person is a "real" N.

[polymath]

Lucky,

Its really pretty simple. Stand a little outside a conversation between a suspected N and a well-adjusted person. It may take a few minutes to really pick up on it and you will have to listen very intently, but listen for the flow of the conversation. Does the N talk over the other person, do they cut them off mid-sentence, do they make excessive eye contact.

Normal self-adjusted people will tell stories, talk weather, sports, current events, work, family, etc. while N's will always bring the conversation back to 'I' and 'me'. If you keep your ears open and not constantly think about what your going to say next you'll pick it up.

The vast majority of true N's are male only children, or at least the oldest child by at least 3-4 years. If the father was emotionally or physically absent for whatever reason, often the mother will compensate by spoiling the child, not to mention the mother's nature to protect them from the cruel world. By having a sister, your mother was not able to turn her attention completely to one child. She may have favored one of you but unless she was just a complete animal it would've been pretty hard to focus on just one of you.

I just treat my N mom like she treats me. I'm just slightly condescending and sarcastic. Not too heavy, just enough to keep her out of my boundaries for a few moments. She gets tired of trying to get into my space and leaves. Try to think of them as a nosy neighbor you have to deal with until they die or move LOL.

[Lucky]

Thank you Polymath for explaining things to me.
I have always been very afraid of my mother. Are N's also afraid of their N parent or is there more fighting going on? Is the N child normally the GC or could he/she as well be the SG? I also have a hard time distinguishing between empathy and spoiling. I know my mother was never the spoiling type, if we got freedom it was mostly because of her ignoring ways. She could at other times be very controlling and bullying. She never wanted to spend much time, energy or money on us. The little bit she gave she still considered an enormous sacrifice. However she did not have to work so very hard en there was always enough money. My father had a good job. I am wondering how I would have behaved (towards NM) now if I would have become a N myself. Sometimes I think I made a narrow escape becoming a N.

[Ami]

Dear RS
 You are SO convinced you are a true N. N is so much more subtle than you seem to see ,IME.                    Ami

[Lucky]

Dear RS
 You are SO convinced you are a true N. N is so much more subtle than you seem to see ,IME.                    Ami

Ami, could you please explain what you mean by N being more subtle?

[Ami]

Dear RS
 You are SO convinced you are a true N. N is so much more subtle than you seem to see ,IME.                    Ami

Ami, could you please explain what you mean by N being more subtle?

Dear (((Lucky)))
 In my layman's opinion, a true  N could not have written RS's post.I feel that way about all his posts. However, I don't want to pick it apart and give my reasons unless he gives me permission.        Ami

[ShakeSenora]

To the poster's original question, I do think N children bond with their N parents over 2 main things. Drama-drama (all types of situations) & criticism /blaming / manipulating of others. When I hear people really dishing in a mean way over someone else, I pretty much assume they're N's.

[ShakeSenora]

Oh, just realized I replied to Lucky who posted about a family situation on another thread. Lucky, when I if I look at my SD who is a funny, smart person - but also very high-maintenance - there is a pattern to when she seems close and bonded with her NM.

1) When she's sick (real illness or nervous-type stuff like stomachaches). And she has also followed her mom's example of getting a lot (wow) of pricey elective cosmetic medical and dental procedures done.

2) When she does well in school and sports. But teachers & coaches were also continously pressured by her NM over the years to give SD "special" extra chances to shine or catch up.

3) When they go on shopping sprees - since the latest designer stuff is a big deal to both of them.

4) And when they're pretty much gossiping or "discussing someones shortcomings" behind their back.

[Ami]

Dear  Lucky
 You asked me about N traits . I am gonna take one trait at a time and explain it from my experience and reading as a layman. The first one is denseness. N's are not self aware. If an N is dominating the conversation, THEY do not know it. Other people know it  but the N would be the LAST to know.
 One guy in our drinking group(what a name ) is very N like.He has no awareness of his place in a group of people as far as  give and take. If you told him this, he would think you were nuts.
 Do you know what I mean, Lucky?                   Ami

[BonesMS]

"Dense" is a good description of N's reactions when they are confronted about inappropriate behaviors.  At the same time, I get the STRONG impression that they know EXACTLY what they are doing, when they are doing it!  I observed that with one of the NFrenemies that used to be in my social circle.  When she was told, POINT BLANK, that specific behaviors were completely inappropriate, her essential response was:  "I DON'T CARE!  I WANT!!!!  GIMME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I'M ENTITLED TO WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT IT!!!!!!"  Even though she's 50-something, it felt like I was dealing with an overgrown 6-year-old having a full-blown temper meltdown!  Then later, she tries to act as if NOTHING WRONG has happened and expects EVERYONE around her to give her permission to DO IT AGAIN!!!!!  NOT ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  SHE GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bones

[Ami]

"Dense" is a good description of N's reactions when they are confronted about inappropriate behaviors.  At the same time, I get the STRONG impression that they know EXACTLY what they are doing, when they are doing it!  I observed that with one of the NFrenemies that used to be in my social circle.  When she was told, POINT BLANK, that specific behaviors were completely inappropriate, her essential response was:  "I DON'T CARE!  I WANT!!!!  GIMME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I'M ENTITLED TO WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT IT!!!!!!"  Even though she's 50-something, it felt like I was dealing with an overgrown 6-year-old having a full-blown temper meltdown!  Then later, she tries to act as if NOTHING WRONG has happened and expects EVERYONE around her to give her permission to DO IT AGAIN!!!!!  NOT ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  SHE GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bones

I agree with what you are saying BUT I think that your post and mine are both right and not opposed. Let me explain. The N wants what she wants. That is a given BUT the trueN could not SEE from the outside what she was DOING. IOW, your N friend could not SAY, *I* dominate conversations, *I* want all the attention.
 They are too dense for THIS type of self awareness. Do you know what I mean, Bones?         Ami

[BonesMS]

"Dense" is a good description of N's reactions when they are confronted about inappropriate behaviors.  At the same time, I get the STRONG impression that they know EXACTLY what they are doing, when they are doing it!  I observed that with one of the NFrenemies that used to be in my social circle.  When she was told, POINT BLANK, that specific behaviors were completely inappropriate, her essential response was:  "I DON'T CARE!  I WANT!!!!  GIMME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I'M ENTITLED TO WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT IT!!!!!!"  Even though she's 50-something, it felt like I was dealing with an overgrown 6-year-old having a full-blown temper meltdown!  Then later, she tries to act as if NOTHING WRONG has happened and expects EVERYONE around her to give her permission to DO IT AGAIN!!!!!  NOT ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  SHE GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bones

I agree with what you are saying BUT I think that your post and mine are both right and not opposed. Let me explain. The N wants what she wants. That is a given BUT the trueN could not SEE from the outside what she was DOING. IOW, your N friend could not SAY, *I* dominate conversations, *I* want all the attention.
 They are too dense for THIS type of self awareness. Do you know what I mean, Bones?         Ami

I'm not sure.

With NFrenemy, she has been known to say:  "It's OK!  THEY KNOW ME!!!!!  I HAVE SPECIAL PRIVILEGES!!!!!"  UGH!!!!  

One of the last arguments I had with her was regarding her INSISTENCE on parking HER car in my neighbors' reserved spots, KNOWING that my neighbors were complaining to me about it!  She would either smirk or just give my neighbors the "dismissive hand flip".  When I confronted her for the last time, she acknowledged that she KNEW those spaces were RESERVED for my neighbors but SHE didn't want to park in the visitors' lot because it was INCONVENIENT FOR HERSELF!  I told her either respect everyone's boundaries or DO NOT COME OVER HERE AT ALL OR ELSE SHE WOULD BE TICKETED AND TOWED BY THE POLICE!  She got huffy and I later found the visitor tag, that I had LOANED her, shoved under my windshield wiper with a snarky note commenting that SHE wouldn't need it anymore!  (She KNEW EXACTLY what she was doing!) 

Bones

[Ami]

"Dense" is a good description of N's reactions when they are confronted about inappropriate behaviors.  At the same time, I get the STRONG impression that they know EXACTLY what they are doing, when they are doing it!  I observed that with one of the NFrenemies that used to be in my social circle.  When she was told, POINT BLANK, that specific behaviors were completely inappropriate, her essential response was:  "I DON'T CARE!  I WANT!!!!  GIMME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I'M ENTITLED TO WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT IT!!!!!!"  Even though she's 50-something, it felt like I was dealing with an overgrown 6-year-old having a full-blown temper meltdown!  Then later, she tries to act as if NOTHING WRONG has happened and expects EVERYONE around her to give her permission to DO IT AGAIN!!!!!  NOT ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  SHE GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bones

I agree with what you are saying BUT I think that your post and mine are both right and not opposed. Let me explain. The N wants what she wants. That is a given BUT the trueN could not SEE from the outside what she was DOING. IOW, your N friend could not SAY, *I* dominate conversations, *I* want all the attention.
 They are too dense for THIS type of self awareness. Do you know what I mean, Bones?         Ami

I'm not sure.

With NFrenemy, she has been known to say:  "It's OK!  THEY KNOW ME!!!!!  I HAVE SPECIAL PRIVILEGES!!!!!"  UGH!!!!   

One of the last arguments I had with her was regarding her INSISTENCE on parking HER car in my neighbors' reserved spots, KNOWING that my neighbors were complaining to me about it!  She would either smirk or just give my neighbors the "dismissive hand flip".  When I confronted her for the last time, she acknowledged that she KNEW those spaces were RESERVED for my neighbors but SHE didn't want to park in the visitors' lot because it was INCONVENIENT FOR HERSELF!  I told her either respect everyone's boundaries or DO NOT COME OVER HERE AT ALL OR ELSE SHE WOULD BE TICKETED AND TOWED BY THE POLICE!  She got huffy and I later found the visitor tag, that I had LOANED her, shoved under my windshield wiper with a snarky note commenting that SHE wouldn't need it anymore!  (She KNEW EXACTLY what she was doing!) 

Bones

I see your point, Bones. My M could do a similar thing. I  have a sense about N that I can't communicate  very well. I feel I can sense the N ness of s/one , if you could say that but I can't always make the explanation linear.
 Discovering the truth of N, the ins and outs ,is subtle.
 Being an N is  paradoxical and our side as LV is paradoxical, too. I change my perceptions as I grow and know myself better so it is a work in progress.
 Thanks for your post. I can see your friend, very clearly,in my minds eye. She is very much like my M, the variety of N I call Dense N
                                                      Ami

[BonesMS]

And the Dense N's can be FRUSTRATING!!!!!

For example, the group I was with during this past weekend included at least two DENSE N's.  One of them just LOVES to hear the sound of his own voice and will repeat the same story over and over again because HE thinks it's funny!  The story in question is actually gross and nasty and NOT at all appropriate for discussion at the dinner table! 

We had just come back from watching the movie and we were in the midst of eating dessert.  The self-voice-loving N started to repeat the same nasty story, for the upteenth time, AGAIN, because HE thought it was SO hilarious!  Several members of the group spoke up and said:  "NOT WHILE WE ARE EATING!!!!"  His response?  "Well, I THINK IT'S FUNNY!" and continued with the story.  Another group member objected and said:  "I don't want to hear that story AGAIN, especially while I'm eating!  I know where that story is going to go!"  The N repeats that HE thinks it's hilarious and continued with the nasty story!  I lost my patience and I shouted:  "(Name) SHUT UP!!!!!!!"  That FINALLY stopped him in his tracks!

The other DENSE N managed to tick off the group.  She was supposed to make the travel arrangements, on behalf of the group, which included the hotel reservations and the VIP passes to get into the Star Trek Exhibit.  We asked her, several times, via e-mail and she kept re-assuring us that everything was on track.  When my roommate and I got to the hotel, we discovered that even though the price included the VIP passes, there were NO VIP passes available to us!  Turns out that the ONLY person who got a VIP pass was the N, HERSELF, who was supposed to make these arrangements for the group!  We let her know how we felt about that!  Her comment?  "I guess that wasn't a good idea, huh?"  I snapped back:  "NO IT WAS NOT!"

The final thing she did confirmed to me, "She's an IDIOT!"  I was crossing the street and a car was trying to make a right turn into the group of pedestrians crossing the street.  As I'm trying to maneuver and dodge this car, in the middle of the intersection, I'm hearing my name being yelled SEVERAL times!  I turn my head to see who in the HECK is SCREAMING my name like that!  It's the DENSE IDIOT EXPECTING ME TO STAND IN THE MIDDLE OF TRAFFIC AND WAVE AT HER!!!!!  M-O-R-O-N!!!!!!!

Bones