Difference between inappropriateness & lack of boundaries?

[bearwithme]

Hello,

I was wondering if there is a difference between inappropriateness and lack of boundaries for N's.  Are they one and the same?  Are N's just so all over the map that their lack of boundaries cause them to be inappropriate, or, are they inappropriate first because they have NO boundaries to speak of?  Like the chicken and the egg dilemma.

I have about a jillion examples but here's one that I need to let some steam out about:  (girls, you gotta love this one)

My Nmom divorced my easy going, yet passive, father 19 years ago, when I was in my early 20's.  My father remarried a very nice, giving and supportive lady.  I really like her, and she's been like my second mom to me.  My Nmom is raving jealous of her and can not stand when I bring up her name and calls her names, etc. 

Okay, there have been several family events that my Nmom has been to that have also involved my father and his wife.  My Nmom acts really weird, saying weird things as if she's almost flirting with my father. I can't really say for sure but she goes on and on in front of my dad and his wife about her memories with my father, vacations, fun times, special moments, gifts he gave her, etc., she speaks loudly where everyone around her can hear and they all have funny looks on their faces.  My dad's wife gets a bit uncomfortable and it's really agonizing to watch.  I think this is inappropriate.  She knows the boundary here but wants to make my dad's wife jealous.  Agree?  Or is it that she had no boundary to begin with so she doesn't know any better????

Okay, here's the big one.  I had a beautiful get together for my daughter's 2nd birthday party last month.  It was outside in the garden late in the afternoon to early evening.  My dad and his wife came, my dad's sister and her husband  (auntie & uncle) and their granddaughter, and my Nmom were there.  Nmom was staying with us at the time so when everyone arrived for the birthday party, she was wearing a nice casual outfit and everyone complimented her on it.  Well, for SOME reason that only God knows, she later went into her room and changed into this little skimpy bathing-suit cover up.  It was white, sleeveless and very short and semi see-through. It wasn't a pool party and we were definitely not at the beach!! 

I looked at her and said "oh, do you still have to get ready mom?" and she said, "No, I'm ready, I'm just going to wear this....it's just waaaaaaayyy more comfortable."  She pointed out that she had shorts on underneath the little coverlet but the shorts were "hot pants" and when she bent over, well, you could just imagine.  The little white dress/shirt was way too short.  I would not be caught dead wearing that to a party...not even a pool party!  It was hideous looking on her.  Not trying to be mean here but her aging 69 year old body is not in great shape.  She is the heaviest I've ever seen her and when she walked around, the back of the lightweight coverlet creeped up her back side, exposing the very bottom shape of her buttocks which hung out of the shorty-shorts.  She was wearing these little sandals with heels mind you, to boot!  Nmom pranced around the patio with her wine glass bending over in front of my dad, his wife and my husband and everyone else!  I was mortified!!!!!!!!  This was her baby granddaughter's birthday party, not Fort Lauderdale's Spring Break-Girls Gone Wild video tryouts!!!!!!!

Wouldn't she think, "Hey, I'm going to be some timeless pictures with my granddaughter....."  Needless to say, I didn't take any pictures of her with my daughter, I was too embarrassed.  Actually, I felt bad for thinking that she looked gross.  A part of me says, hey, if an aging woman wants to wear something showy, then go for it, you only live once and who cares what everyone else thinks! Right?  Another part of me says,  there is a time and place for everything and to have some discretion, just because a very short bathing suit cover-up looks good on a young person, doesn't mean that it will look good on me.  Some apparel is not age appropriate for 69 year old.  And how disrespectful to my dad's wife!!  What was she thinking?  Did Nmom actually think my dad, or uncle, or husband would think she's sexy or something?  What was she thinking? 

My Nmom has worn age inappropriate things before.  She came to my house last summer dressed like a little girl in shorty-short-shorts embroidered with flowers and glitter and a "Juicy" tank-top that showed her droopy breasts and was waaaaayyyy too small on her. It's like she's regressing or something.  I think she's crazy.

Good Gawd. I'm laughing right now as I type.

Is this lack of boundaries?  Or is it inappropriateness on purpose?  If it is the latter, then Nmom knows better, she has a reason for doing what she's doing.  If it is the former, then she is clueless.  N's can't learn boundaries.

Just a note:  I read somewhere where N's are not aware of their aging bodies and they actually see something different than all of us.

Anyway, I have a million other stories of my Nmom's inappropriateness and/ or lack of boundaries.  I just got to thinking, which is it or is it both??

[HeartofPilgrimage]

To me, being inappropriate and lacking proper boundaries are one and the same thing. Of course, sometimes people are not aware that they're being inappropriate, like when they are in a new culture or something. But to me the whole point of behaving inappropriately is that you don't observe the "stopping point" --- the line at which you must stop or cross over into behaving badly.

I'm sorry that you had to endure the embarrassment of your mother acting like this. However, at least everybody could observe how wildly inappropriate she was then! So it is not you all alone protesting, and she was being so sneaky and denying everything and making you look crazy.

I've decided that if you give Ns enough rope, they will eventually hang themselves. So my goal in life now is to get the heck out of the way and let them self-destruct. OK, that does sound cold, but dadgum it, I am tired of wasting my energy trying to be warm to people who can't receive it.

[bearwithme]

Thanks Heart!  I liked your explanation here.  The "stopping point" is the key.  At what point do we learn to "stop."  We are taught this at an early age.  With my Nmom, it's almost as if she knows when to "stop" at times and at other times, she doesn't "stop" at all, i.e., my daughters birthday party.
To "stop" something at some point can make it a boundary.  If one is inappropriate, it could be on accident, like you mentioned in a new or different culture, etc. 
But if someone does not know how to stop their behavior then it ends up being both lack of boundaries and inappropriateness.

I think my belief is that when you become an adult, especially by the time you're in your 60's as is my Nmom, then you should know better.  Even if you were never taught to observe the "stopping point" as a child, society takes care of that for you (for the most part).  Other people end up making comments to you or someone tells you that you were inappropriate, etc., then you learn it quickly.  Thanks to my NM, I lacked certain boundaries, so when I left home in my 20's, I learned the hard way from other people -- how to act appropriately and to respect myself and others.  This was a great lesson for me and still is, albeit somewhat embarrassing because they must have thought me so immature.

Then for N's, they must not learn this "stopping point".  They just think they are above and beyond other's opinions or observations of them.  And you're right about them hanging themselves.  I think my Nmom sort of hung herself by dressing the way she did and acting that way.  Eventhough I was embarrassed, I just sat back and watched the show she put on. 

The lacking of proper boundaries for N's almost always leads to inappropriate behavior and for the rest of us, it does not.  We can be inappropriate by accident or on purpose.  But I can't help but feel that N's know there is a boundary there somewhere, they just don't feel they have to observe it and they end up misbehaving and "acting" inappropriately.  Am I making any sense?

[BonesMS]

Yes, you're making PERFECT sense!

I've been in situations where the N was told POINT BLANK that a specific behavior is INAPPROPRIATE and the reaction was:  "How DARE you tell ME 'NO'!  I'M ENTITLED TO DO AS I PLEASE!"  (Un-F-ing-Believable!!!!!) 

Bones

[bearwithme]

Yes, you're making PERFECT sense!

I've been in situations where the N was told POINT BLANK that a specific behavior is INAPPROPRIATE and the reaction was:  "How DARE you tell ME 'NO'!  I'M ENTITLED TO DO AS I PLEASE!"  (Un-F-ing-Believable!!!!!) 
Bones

Bones, me too.  My NM was told to her face by 3 people one Easter Sunday that her comments were inappropriate and she STILL DIDN'T GET IT!!  They spent 2 hours trying to explain to her why she souldn't have said what she said and her reaction was, "WHAT, WHAT DO YOU MEAN???"  She never got it.  It is unfreekinbelievable!!!!!!

So there.  Society can not correct their bad behavior, or show them they were bad, as society can correct or show us our behavior.  They have an inability to learn...or is this just called lack of empathy.  Hmmmmm, now I'm really confused!!

[BonesMS]

Yes, you're making PERFECT sense!

I've been in situations where the N was told POINT BLANK that a specific behavior is INAPPROPRIATE and the reaction was:  "How DARE you tell ME 'NO'!  I'M ENTITLED TO DO AS I PLEASE!"  (Un-F-ing-Believable!!!!!)  
Bones

Bones, me too.  My NM was told to her face by 3 people one Easter Sunday that her comments were inappropriate and she STILL DIDN'T GET IT!!  They spent 2 hours trying to explain to her why she souldn't have said what she said and her reaction was, "WHAT, WHAT DO YOU MEAN???"  She never got it.  It is unfreekinbelievable!!!!!!

So there.  Society can not correct their bad behavior, or show them they were bad, as society can correct or show us our behavior.  They have an inability to learn...or is this just called lack of empathy.  Hmmmmm, now I'm really confused!!

N's KNOW how to MANIPULATE AND have a LACK OF EMPATHY coupled with a SENSE OF ABSOLUTE ENTITLEMENT!!!!  

I may have shared this example before:

One NFrenemy had been told, REPEATEDLY, that when she came to visit that she is REQUIRED to park her car in the Visitors' area.  Homeowners PAY FOR RESERVED PARKING!  What would she do?  She would REPEATEDLY IGNORE these instructions and park her car in my neighbor's RESERVED space ANYWAY!!!  Her excuse?  "Parking in the Visitors' area is INCONVENIENT!"

I got tired of hearing my neighbors complain and her DELIBERATELY IGNORING THE PARKING RULES!!!  Things finally came to a head, around Christmas 2007 when I was down sick with a NASTY case of asthmatic bronchitis, a complication of the flu.  She calls me to ANNOUNCE that she was dropping in for a visit!  (She NEVER ASKED IF IT WAS CONVENIENT FOR ANYONE ELSE!)  I told her:  "Do NOT come over here!  I'm SICK and I'm in NO shape to do ANY KIND of Christmas entertaining!"  To make a long story short, she showed up ANYWAY and DEMANDED that I get out of a sick bed, come upstairs, and stand in a COLD, DAMP, DRAFTY, RAINY, WINTRY doorway for HER CONVENIENCE because she was parked ILLEGALLY AGAIN!!!  I told her to come downstairs and I BLASTED her for being RUDE, INCONSIDERATE, etc., etc.!!!!  She gave me the usual "glassy-eyed, blank stare" whenever she is told "NO" to something she DEMANDS!  I BANNED her after that!   

Bones

Bones

[Portia]

Bearwithme

your words stirred up some stories in me! But to your question about society teaching us, and us learning - so why don't they? Well i don't know. I think it would take society saying:

"Hey, do you realise you really look like mutton dressed up as lamb, you look RIDICULOUS and a FIGURE OF FUN, you make everyone around you ASHAMED and HUMILIATED to be around you" (using their own language of shame and humiliation)-

that might strike a chord? I doubt it though. They'd say something like: "Oh you're sooo funny!" and float away happily inside their little bubble of fantasy.

Hmm. I guess it's still my anger that keeps me going. Add two-parts humor every time and it ain't so bad,especially when it's shared.

I felt your story (((BWM))).

[Sealynx]

I can remember so many inappropriate actions by my mother that were one and the same with lack of boundaries. She is so self focused that she never knows what her "place" in an event is. Once at a wedding where she did not know the bride's family at all and barely knew the groom, she interrupted a toast being given by the father of bride to interject her own. If I could have crawled under a table I would have!

[bearwithme]

I can remember so many inappropriate actions by my mother that were one and the same with lack of boundaries. She is so self focused that she never knows what her "place" in an event is. Once at a wedding where she did not know the bride's family at all and barely knew the groom, she interrupted a toast being given by the father of bride to interject her own. If I could have crawled under a table I would have!

Holy macanoly!  This takes the cake! Seal: this is what they do!  At my cousin's funeral, one of my other cousins spoke on behalf of me and all the other cousins because not everyone could talk, right? Well, my mom took it upon herself to tell everyone that I had something to say when I didn't, my cousin already spoke for all of us, why did she put  me on the spot like that?  Everyone was looking at me and I had to defend myself. 

Just one more embarrassment for the books.  But you win this one Sealynx......Eyie Eyie Eyie!!

[bearwithme]

Bearwithme

your words stirred up some stories in me! But to your question about society teaching us, and us learning - so why don't they? Well i don't know. I think it would take society saying:

"Hey, do you realise you really look like mutton dressed up as lamb, you look RIDICULOUS and a FIGURE OF FUN, you make everyone around you ASHAMED and HUMILIATED to be around you" (using their own language of shame and humiliation)-

that might strike a chord? I doubt it though. They'd say something like: "Oh you're sooo funny!" and float away happily inside their little bubble of fantasy.

Hmm. I guess it's still my anger that keeps me going. Add two-parts humor every time and it ain't so bad,especially when it's shared.

I felt your story (((BWM))).

The part about using their own language of shame and humiliation really does it.  I have tried it before and literally watched my Nmom spin out of control and revert back to being a child....she became the martyr, which infuriates me beyond belief.  But she has also taken the path of "oh your soooo funny...la la la la la...life is beautiful and you're not" approach.  If all else fails for Nmom, she plays the "God" card to the hilt!  "I have God and he is my salvation NOT some therapist of yours or your stupid take on things...etc."

As for your anger Portia.  I have it too.  I get it real bad sometimes and I hate it.  I want it to end.

Thanks for the thoughtful words.

[Ami]

Dear Bear,
 I deleted my post. I am sorry if my joke hurt you, if it did. Your pain from your M is no joking matter ,even though N's can be outrageous ,as you said.
 Sometimes the person needs to share their OWN humor and another persons does not fit. Sorry, again, Bear!!            Ami

[BonesMS]

I can remember so many inappropriate actions by my mother that were one and the same with lack of boundaries. She is so self focused that she never knows what her "place" in an event is. Once at a wedding where she did not know the bride's family at all and barely knew the groom, she interrupted a toast being given by the father of bride to interject her own. If I could have crawled under a table I would have!

GOOD GRIEF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

Bones

[Sealynx]

bear,
I can certainly relate to your being "spoken for". How often my power has been stolen or I was humiliated by her insistence on putting her words in my mouth. The other version of this is making the kind of "teaching" comment one would make to a small child in response to something I say.

That happened this weekend while we were out at a restaurant. We were discussing psychics on TV and I commented that I would never share my psychic hunches with the police because unlike what you see on TV, telling the police that you know something only the murderer could have known could get you arrested. She loudly proclaimed so that all the tables near us could hear, "Oh you better not say that, the police may be listening!" This of course caused several people to turn around.

I believe the intent of this comment was to do exactly what it did... cause her to appear as someone who was "righteously correcting bad behavior" for which she assumed she would be highly regarded by strangers. I have seen her do this too many times for it to be accidental. It is the result not only of poor boundaries but of her perception of the importance of her opinions to others.

[bearwithme]

Dear Bear,
 I deleted my post. I am sorry if my joke hurt you, if it did. Your pain from your M is no joking matter ,even though N's can be outrageous ,as you said.
 Sometimes the person needs to share their OWN humor and another persons does not fit. Sorry, again, Bear!!            Ami

(((Ami))) do not apologize whatsoever!!  I like humor!  I like to laugh more than I like to write this stuff-- it's just a shame we need to come here to vent and be heard instead of laughing and being our utmost happiest!! For me, humor is ALWAYS welcome!  WE NEEEEEDDD IT!!!!  Let's start a board with just happy laughs and jokes....

[Portia]

Thanks BWM for your reply. The anger isn't as bad as it used to be. No ruminating any more and if I have an inkling to start...hey, I know I'm doing it, and can stop the thinking. Maybe my anger feeling, if I give in to it,is being replaced with a feeling of frustration..of all the waste. Wasted...time, emotion etc. Greiving in bouts perhaps.

Playing the God card just turns me right off. I watched someone speak of what they had been indoctrinated with recently, and as they spoke, I'm sure their tone of voice changed and their eyes lost contact with the person they were talking to (not me). I found it alienating and slightly scary; I was an equal human and became suddenly a nothing to them....that's how it felt. They were speaking of something inside their head, or rather, IT was speaking through them. Yes, that's how it seemed: they disappeared and this 'it' talked through them. I much prefer my neighbour who says,bluntly, "you know I don't think that" if I mention evolution; and we can have an in-contact conversation although we know we don't see the same things. That's ok. We've even, almost, agreed it would be interesting to swap brains, if we could. Almost! I'm ready, she isn't. Will she ever be, even in theory?

Ami - I laughed at your joke, thank you! When did people stop streaking? More streaking required, of all ages!