N vs. assertive

[English]

Something happened recently that made me feeling DEEPLY ashamed.  I had registered with Dr. Grossman a week and a half ago for this board, but my emails to him got fouled up so he deleted my registration.  By then he had closed the board.  I emailed him and asked about why he had not replied about joining the board.  He said he had deleted it because he had received blank emails from me.  All well and good.  He said since I was interested, he would open the registering for me for 15 minutes and asked if I would like to do this.  I emailed back and said I would.  Then I got busy with students in my class not realizing that this would happen right away.  That was unclear.  I read his email about an hour later where it said he would open it for 15 min. right away.  Well I had missed the window.  I felt horribly ashamed and embarrassed for missing the deadline and thought, "well that is that.  I can't join.  I'm such an idiot (for not being able to read his mind.)"  It actually was not clear to me at the time that he meant he would do this right away.  I emailed him back thanking him for the opportunity.  He surprised me by emailing back to let him know when I would be online so that I could register. 

My question: I didn't pursue the idea of ASKING him to open the board again.  I gave up.  I didn't ask because I was afraid of being narcissistic-that I was "entitled" to be on the board-that I was more important than all the other people who couldn't join.  So what is the line between N and assertiveness?  I could have explained the situation to him and asked to try to register again, but I was afraid of being like NM.

[Twoapenny]

Hi  English,

I found that, throughout my life, I have known my mum's needs almost before she did.  I can tell you, with almost 100% accuracy, what she will say or do in any given situation, and what her thoughts on that situation would be.  This has caused three problems with me.  Firstly, at the age of 36, I am only just starting to figure out what I want, need, think and feel - I've never considered myself before and didn't really exist outside my mum.  Secondly, I was taught that everyone else was more important than me, so any request made me feel like I was being selfish and I always thought I was in the wrong (for example, if someone bumped into me in a shop, I would apologise to them for being in their way).  Thirdly, because I have this instinctive way of knowing what people want I assume everyone does - but the reality is most people need clear, specific communication because they weren't raised to operate on some sort of telepathic level.

I am finding my way through all of this and getting to a point where I can communicate my feelings and my needs to people.  A great thing my therapist taught me is that you have to trust other people's ability to say no to you.  So to use your example of asking Dr G to open the board again - my T would say, instead of worrying about whether your request is reasonable, ask the question - politely, obviously, but trust in the other person's ability to say no to you.  So if you had asked and it wasn't possibe, Dr G would be perfectly able to say, "Sorry, I can't do that".  That's his right to refuse a request - something else you aren't taught when you grow up with an N!

I've found this has helped me a lot - I can ask someone to give me a lift now and trust that they will tell me no if it isn't convenient, rather than worrying myself silly about whether or not it is appropriate and eventually not asking because I'm too worried about putting them in a situation they don't want to be in.  Similarly, I had to tell a friend recently i couldn't afford to buy her a birthday present.  I could never have done that a year ago; I'd have borrowed the money rather than not buy something.  But I trusted in her ability to (1) value our friendship rather than basing it on what I buy for her and (2) being able to tell me if she felt hurt or upset by what I'd done.

It takes practise and I do fall back into old habits but it's getting easier now and I think the more you do it the easier it gets.  I hope something in there helps a little bit

And try really hard not to feel ashamed!  What happened was a simple misunderstanding that was quickly resolved and caused no problems on either side.  Again, being raised to believe everything is your fault and a huge deal means we take on far too much over minor things that other people forget all about really quickly.

[English]

Thanks Twoapenny,
I'm gonna repeat that mantra:  Trust them to say no.

Only problem, when I imagine someone telling me no...I feel embarrassed and ashamed that I asked.   and afraid.  II sort of imagine someone yelling "No!" at me. I can't win with myself.

Trust them to say no, trust them to say no, trust them to say no.  Blast, where is the record button on my (mental) tape recorder?   :)Trust them to say no.

[Sealynx]

That is great advice Twoapenny! It is the kind of thing we never learned at home where we were made to feel like we controlled the world and would be met with the same anger or discomfort that we felt at being controlled by our N mom's "unreasonable requests" should we make a reasonable request of someone else. This one goes on the fridge!!

[Twoapenny]

You have my therapist to thank for it, she is great and I really like her.

English, it is really hard to change those patterns that are so deeply ingrained, but I'm finding it easier as time goes by.  I think what helps me is that when I do this now, the other person's response is fine.  Now I can see that if I ask for a lift somewhere and the other person says no, the world doesn't come to an end, I'm not ignored for days because I've displeased them and they don't say nasty things about me being selfish and lazy.  That is what I've always expected, but I'm slowly starting to understand that my mum is not normal and most people don't behave and respond in the way that she does.  It's taking a lot of time and practise, but I'm getting there slowly.

I watched a programme recently about soldiers suffering from post traumatic stress, and it was explaining how, basically, because they'd spent so long being constantly afraid and on high alert in a war situation, they stay stuck in that mode even though they're home and safe now.  I think what we learn as children is similar; even though we're not kids any more and we're not dealing with our mothers day to day we still act and react as if we are.  Another one I keep repeating to myself is 'I am safe'.  I've only recently realised that I am constantly frightened, day and night.  I think I've always been like this, which is why I didn't notice it sooner.  So I keep telling myself I'm safe, I'm safe, I'm safe and slowly slowly slowly my anxiety is starting to ease.  I think baby steps is the way forward.  It's like learning how to live all over again.

Hugs

Twopenny

[teartracks]

Hi All,

Nothing takes the place of simple civility, does it?  I love the examples of it in this thread...

I'm working on the art of it

tt  

[cgm1028]

Wow Twoapenny - you so eloquently expressed what I often feel.  In my NM's home - it was required you be a mind-reader and anticipate her every need and ever-changing whim.  Nothing and no one was as important as NM and I too have often apologized for someone bumping into me!  It took alot of work on my part to get past, "I don't count for anything, I should never ask for anything" mindset and claim what is rightfully mine.  I still lapse and I still at times feel that I am acting like her when I stand up for myself.

The legacy we live with is often so tiresome.

[Portia]

Trust them to say No...how about saying 'No' yourself?
(I trust people to say no. I became accustomed to 'no', so I think I stopped asking at some point. Unless I can telepath a good-enough reason for someone to say 'yes', I don't waste time/energy asking.)
Saying 'no': I recently had a number done on me. In the space of 10 minutes, someone flattered me, gave me two gifts and then asked for a reasonably awkward favour. I was cornered with no time to think and said yes, grudgingly. I kind of admired the tactics and thought 'next time I'll see that coming'. When the favour was executed, I got the feeling the person wasn't that happy with the event either. Maybe they'll think twice too? There's also a cultural difference to consider. Good learning.
A different event might be with the person who hasn't learned to plan. They are used to you saying yes,so they turn up and ask for something right now, which they could have asked for hours before, allowing you time to plan around it (or say no). But in relying on your 'yes', they lay themselves open to a collapse of their plans, should you say 'no'. With this event, I actually laughed out loud. Lucky for them I was able to say 'yes', but I really wanted to ask: 'what if I say no, what will you do?'
Reminded of a classic 'no' -
"Aren't you coming out to dinner with the rest of the work team tonight?" (says boss)
"No." (me smiling attempting a distracted air)
"What's the matter, don't you like us?" (boss)  ...sometimes it's probably best just to keep very quiet. I did.

[Hopalong]

Thank you, English, for raising the issue of entitlement.
That word is so important, and your post budged my thinking forward, with help also from Twoapenny (whom I'd love to call Tupp if you like it!).

I think, English, that I've had the same problem with not detecting the inner difference between simple healthy assertiveness ("I have a right to be here", "It's okay to ask for what I want") and entitlement.

Because Nism is such a source of horror to me, and I know the attitude of entitlement is like a geological core sample in Nfolk--goes ALL the way through, I'm likewise hypervigilant for signs of it in myself. (Believe me, they do -- it does -- appear. It's like playing whack-a-mole, dealing with Nspots.)

The answer or thought that seems to be helping me most now with this issue is when I think about a question I need to ask, and remind myself:

It is always okay to ask for what you want, as long as you release the outcome.

I think practicing this means I feel less frightened of the horror of hearing NO, which to a child of N is like hearing POOF! How dare you even ASK!

Instead, by working on my OWN sense of freedom in the ability to ask, I am implicitly practicing that I freely release the other person from obligation to say Yes, or No. So, knowing the answer is done by THEM in freedom too (can't withold from them what I'm claiming for myself) ... then whatever the outcome just IS, is easier to accept.

I have a feeling I made that sound a lot more convoluted than it really is.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, you must've practiced this a long time. I consider you the ultimate grand poo-bah of "releasing the outcome"! It was one of the best things I've learned from you. You have no idea how often it's helped me... or on how many levels.

I'll be trying to dig up a strength of mine to share, too.

[Ami]

Dear English
 Have you read Dr G's essays on Voicelessness. My guess is most of us on this board are on the OTHER end of N i.e. voiceless or Little Voice(LV)
  LV need more selfishness. Our problem is  guilt for normal needs or normal every day mistakes(misunderstandings) such as the situation  you describe I don't think you did one thing to be embarrassed about.
 I get  shamed and embarrassed when I think I have overstepped  bounds ,too. It is like my M's hand slaps me and says "BAD". I hate  the shame it produces in me .I think you are dosing yourself with a big pound of shame and it is not real,but old messages from your childhood. You are not alone. I struggle with this, MUCHO !
               xxooo  Ami

[teartracks]

Dear English,

I read your opening post on how you and Dr. G. worked out the problem of your registering.  The part of how the working out of it made you feel passed right by me .  I don't know what that says about me other than I was, as Hops mentioned, looking at the outcome.   Edit in:  The outcome being that the two of you were able to work out the kinks in your stalled attempt to become a member in a civil manner.

Growing up in a world controlled by a narcissist is one in which the boundary lines (theirs) are as eratic as a Jackson Pollock painting.  With them, every independent action (yours) requires re-negotiating your contract to exist, to need, to be.  It leaves you with no fixed course to pursue.  If you say no, you're wrong.  If you say yes, you're wrong.  If a hybrid  of the two words existed, you'd still be wrong.  From that type of environment comes a me or a you (our unhealed selves) who in adulthood continues to believe that any independent action on our part is going to require us to  re-negotiate our contract to exist, just to exist & survive.  

Recognizing that I have the right to exist was the place where I started getting well.  Discovering the true uniqueness of who I am is ongoing.  

tt

[rugrats5]

i am uncertain at times too whether I am being N or should be assertive. There is something that came up yesterday, we are moving, we are getting a habitat for humanity house and we have worked long and hard for this...it is definitely not free...but they have the flooring company come out after carpet and flooring is selected and they were laying the carpet and the two guys that were there said "on the plans these 2 bedrooms say purple and black, well they were reversed and I told them which room needed to have the black and which one needed to have purple and they said "thats ok, there will be no problem" well later in the day, I drop my older daughter off and her boyfriend off at the house and they call me on my cell and say they put the carpet in the wrong rooms...and see her boyfriend was there with me when i told these guys so he knew what was said. well after I found out about the mixup, i called the flooring co. and they said that was how it was wrote down and they would have to contact habitat and see what they would say and that there would be a cost differential. My youngest daughter said she would be "ok" with the black carpet but my boys do NOT want purple. So today I talked to habitat and asked them if there was anything they could do and they said they would see, and i told them about my youngest being "ok" with the black carpet in her room and that would save money and then I say but if not I guess we will have to deal with it. But a friend or my brother in law told my husband that we are buying the house and the carpet was not donated, maybe purchased cheaper than if i went right out and bought it but still.???? am I being N or do I have a right to be assertive?