Author Topic: Two kinds of love  (Read 3393 times)

Lollie

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
Re: Two kinds of love
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2009, 01:58:53 PM »
There is so much going on in this thread. Sheesh!

TT,
I wanted to talk about this for a second:

Only to find that as the kids become adults, they abandon those 'loving' parents, go NC, or even as far as General Douglas MacArthur's son who changed his name, and identity burrowing underground metaphorically, even though by all accounts, his father loved him deeply.  

I didn't comment in your other thread, but I believe the author described this as "relentless love." The description bothered me because it smacks of euphemism. Was he overbearing? Controlling? Smothering? Was he forcing himself and his worldview on his son? Was he not hearing his own son's voice?

How can genuine love be relentless? If I tell someone to back off, whether they are expressing their own version of love or not, and they don't respect my request or my boundaries, no matter how much they feel they love me, they are not acting in a loving way, and therefore are not loving me. They are violating a boundary in the name of their feeling. A feeling that they may associate and describe as love, but is not.

I think people can easily fool themselves into thinking they are being loving. I do it myself. We are human beings, afterall, with our own agendas, wounds, assumptions, baggage. One of the greatest tasks of life, IMO, is learning to feel, express, give and receive genuine love.

And I think to divorce the feeling of love from the action of love and say they can exist separately is a mistake.
"Enjoy every sandwich." -- Warren Zevon

rugrats5

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Two kinds of love
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2009, 06:13:07 PM »
My mother has said she loves me and still does but does he words meet her action? NO!!!!! I can see after reading the various comments and facts about how  NM could actually think she loved/loves her child but I have actullay felt like when I have told my therapist what my mother has done to me...neglect, emotional abuse and some physical abuse and then tell her my mom says she loves/loved me that maybe I am making this stuff all up, because just like a few of you, my mother would say she loved me and she was a good mother, but she doesnt admit the abuse and there is very rare happiness from my childhood, but she thinks it was all fine and dandy.I feel like I have to prove to my therapist that I am telling the truth and in all things I have feel that I have to make people believe me because I feel that if I dont get my point across they will think I am lying. I have become a great people pleaser because of her. My grandmother knows what has happened in my life and agrees but do you think she would admit anything either,,, no!It would make her look bad and peole would look down on her for having a daughter that behaved that way. My mother gets her N from her mom but my gram isnt nearly as bad as her. But i do distance my self somehat from my gram as well. It's all about my mom and her and she says "I wish you and your mom would talk, you'll be sorry if she dies or something happens to her." Sorry for the rambling...I got lost trying to prove myself again I think, but O knpw in my heart that my mom does not love me or my children. It all about her

Redhead Erin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
  • "I used to be disgusted; now I try to stay amused"
    • My site about my carriage horses
Re: Two kinds of love
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2009, 12:42:48 AM »


My father had very little in the way of loving examples in his life as he grew up in an orphanage. He found it hard to demonstrate love, but he tried and got better at it over the years. He also instinctively acted unselfishly to me. He was naturally interested in my welfare and in me as a person. It was obvious he loved me and I never doubted it. (Unfortunately he died when I was 18)

My mother always professed great love for me, but would swing between bouts of being controlling to ignoring and indifference. Her years of emotional abuse coupled with her self absorption and her total indifference to me as an adult would suggest that the professed love is a figment of her imagination.

Binks, this is exactly what I was trying to say.  My mother really really believes she loves me and my son, but when I really need her, she is never there.  Her own agenda and convenience are more important to her than my well being.  She can "feel" love in her own head until the end of time, but that will not make her into a person who truely loves me.

This statement about youdad really struck me, as it is just want I was trying to express: He also instinctively acted unselfishly to me. He was naturally interested in my welfare and in me as a person.  He didn't have any formal training in modern psychological parlance; he didn't even have many good examples on which to draw.  But he cared about you, and that caring and love dictated his actions toward you.

As to the example of the farmer: The first farmer is like somebody who really had some god examples or maybe took a lot of relationship counseling. He obviously knows his stuff.  The second farmer is like Bink's dad.  He didn't do as well as the professional farmer, but he did his best and got some produce from it.  To really make the analogy complete, we need a third farmer.  The third farmer will not till anything or invest any time.  If he even has any seeds to plant, he got them free somewhere. He may go mess around in his fields sometimes and look busy, but there is no real effort and no commitment.  His "farming", such as it is, is entirely in his own head.  Come September, he will look out in his fields, see only weeds, and wonder what went wrong.

Back on the other board, we had a discussion going about how "she (NM) loved you in her own way."  As you all know, "her own way" ranged from damn peculiar to outright abusive, depending on the mother. It seems to me this whole concept about loving someone only inside your own head and not showing any loving actions whatsoever is just another way to justify "she loves you in her own way."

BonesMS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8060
Re: Two kinds of love
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2009, 08:11:06 AM »
Or more like justifying their Narcissistic abuse!!!!   :?

Bones
Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13616
Re: Two kinds of love
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2009, 08:31:59 AM »
There's probably a 4th farmer, too, who did everything exactly like farmer #3, except when she looked out at the weeds, said to herself, "What an incredible farmer I am..."

There's a torment in the culture about the word love. I spent a summer in France when I was young and remember being seriously amazed by the verb, aimer, which means BOTH "to love" and "to like."

Je t'aime...I love you.
J'aime bien le vin....I really like wine.
Je vous aimez....I like you OR I love you.
Je ne l'aime pas....I don't like it/him.

I believe this is right. Anyway, I remember thinking quite hard about what a difference it made that in their culture, there wasn't such a BIG DEAL about when "like" becomes "love", and how context and modifiers were necessary anyway to communicate what one meant.

I was there at age 17 and here at home, girls and young women would OBSESS over "I like him" vs. "I like him as a friend" vs. oh god, here it comes, ta daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa: "I love him".

Getting the verb out triggered a cascade of fantasy, unrealistic expectations, projections of Ward and June Cleaver...mental furniture rearranging. I think sometimes we never saw each other as people after that, there were so many measuring sticks.

I had a stoic old uncle, fundamentalist preacher, who never knew what to make of my radical UU divorced self. I really loved the old guy and had practically herniated myself to get his attention when I was a little girl. He'd make a GAME out of not smiling, so much that I'd feel a little hurt. But I still SENSED something real and kind was in there (his own training didn't show him affection) and I never decided he was "mean". Anyway, worlds apart in philosophy, theology, and politics....he was the only relative other than my parents who ever came to see me at college. (Of course, now that I think of it, my mother probably urged him into it.) I was touched though, very. He hated driving, hated travel, hated big cities. Braved them all to come take me out to lunch. And when I visited him later at their remote little farm, one morning he looked at me and said, "I nearly wore out the knees of my pajamas praying for your soul last night!" and I said, "Well thank you. That must be why I slept so well."

Uncle never said to me, "I love you". But I knew that he did. In every single way he knew or had been taught, he tried to show me what he believed love to be, and in some natural way, I sensed he cared.

So even though I believe many factors in my uncle's belief system were repressive, and in the larger cutlure, are fueling destructive divisiveness...old uncle was one person I know loved me. He was someone I respected a great deal, even while I would never yield my feminism or independence to his point of view. Because he spent every Saturday evening for years, year after year, in rural nursing homes, holding the hands of and singing old hymns to lonely, abandoned sick old people.

He could've talked all day about love, never did...but when I learned that about him, I knew who he really was.

Love is kindness.
Love is thoughtfulness.
Love is affection (which we don't recognize often, since the culture has obliterated touch boundaries and subtleties).
Love is sacrifice (not self-abuse, but choices that we feel organically right about, not brainwashed into).
Love is, in my church, "Respecting the inherent worth and dignity of every person."

love (I feel this here, it's like wanting to bless everyone),
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

binks

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: Two kinds of love
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2009, 09:12:07 AM »

Back on the other board, we had a discussion going about how "she (NM) loved you in her own way."  As you all know, "her own way" ranged from damn peculiar to outright abusive, depending on the mother. It seems to me this whole concept about loving someone only inside your own head and not showing any loving actions whatsoever is just another way to justify "she loves you in her own way."

Absolutely Erin. It is not the unconditional love that children should get from their mothers.

Hopalong - I really liked the 4th farmer idea!

teartracks

  • Guest
Re: Two kinds of love
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2009, 11:29:07 AM »



Hi CB,

I appreciate your observations about Dr. Craig's article.  Simplistic is a good way to describe the articles.  I haven't read his book. 

Anyway, again, it was the last three paragraphs of Dr. Craig's link I put up that caught my attention.  I love all the comments everyone has made.  My concentration has been on the simplicity of his 1 & 2 explainations of love and trying to understand how he arrived at those conclusions.  Everyone has made interesting and in my opinion valid points.  Dwelling on this has made me much more aware of the necessity of acting positively on my inner feelings of love.   Right now, it feels las if I am looking out on a vast field of possibilities.  I like how that feels. 

Am going on a long trip for several weeks.  Will be out of the electronic loop for a while.

Thanks,

tt