Path of life

[Lucky]

Does anyone have an idea how many children of an N parent or N parents choose the life path of compliance, docility, doing one's best and avoidance and how many choose the life path of resistance, temperament, messing up and confrontation?
Is there always such a black and white distinction or are there often gray areas? Can one change later in life from the one into the other type of person?

[Lucky]

O I forgot: does the "choice" one makes foretell the amount of succes one will have in life? Or lack there of.

[Hopalong]

Hi Lucky,
I don't know about numbers but I've been both.

Compliant early in life, rebellious and independent later, compliant once again in middle age (as a live-in caregiver...big mistake.)

I think there was always an anxious attachment, as I always stayed in contact and had my strings pulled.

But I went off and married rebellious "outsider" men (2x) and became a poet (pretty nonconformist). That was my individuation, which to some degree, was cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Hence my current fantasy of a stable, more middle of the road kind of partner, kind and dependable.

I projected my need for excitement and freedom in other ways too, and some I remember gladly, like going off and living in isolated areas, working as a carpenter's helper at a time when few women did, traveling, etc.

Now that I'm pushing 60, I'm integrating those things...and I do not want or intend to live the rest of my life defined by my Nparent, or even in opposition to her. Mercifully, she's gone now, so I can complete my healing.

I so wish I'd separated myself from her earlier and built confidence in the boundaries I needed, but the hook was in me.

How about you?

Hops

[binks]

Hi Lucky

Like Hopalong I've also been both. Started off really compliant and got rebellious after my dad died when I was 18.
At 17 I was already friends with the man I would marry and knew that if I did not rebel then I had no chance of a relationship and a happy life.

Then after I was married I become compliant again and remained so for the best part of twenty five years. For the past 6 months I have been NC, so not compliant at all!

[Lucky]

I was compliant until about 22/23 when I had about two years of non compliance (casual sex, party time really, totally enjoying all the good things in life without all the worrying and guilt) but after that I have again always been rather compliant and docile. Sometimes I wish I would dare to be WILD and adventurous.

[Ami]

I was COMPLIANT. My NM deserved the biggest wildest kid but she got s/one who kept trying to be good. I hate myself for that.
                                   Ami

[bearwithme]

I was COMPLIANT. My NM deserved the biggest wildest kid but she got s/one who kept trying to be good. I hate myself for that.
                                   Ami

This was me, too.  My older brother was the rebel without a clue and became heavily addicted to drugs and alcohol.  He left home at 17 and was pretty wreckless.  I was the "good, sweet daughter" but in my NM's eyes, I was dumb, slow, stupid and a bad daughter.  WTF????  Nothing is good enough for the N.

[bearwithme]

As for the second part of your question, Lucky, does the choice fortell the success of either.   Hmmmmm, don't know.  I always thought I'd be waaaayyyy more successful if I stood up for myself more and was really assertive.  But the bully, confrontaional and messing up person may feel the same way.  Maybe they may be a bit more successful because people may fear them a bit more if that makes sense.  They may get more things in life, mabybe?  I'm curious to know.

Bear

[Sealynx]

Hi Lucky,
I think there are too many variables to answer those questions. For one thing we can only answer in relation to our perception of these terms. You would almost have to give everyone a full battery of psychological tests just to see where we fell in terms of the "norm."

The other issue would be how do you define success? Is it getting what we want or wanting what we are capable of. There are many factors that contribute to that. Also success where? Some of us are highly successful in the workplace but tend to be loners when it comes to people. Some of us are happy loners and some are unhappy loners.

[Ales2]

This is a great thread - I will come back when I can respond fully  - but keep this one going!

[Butterfly]

For many years, I can see that I embraced both of those described personas but at the same time, if that makes sense.  I was compliant and docile until I felt ready to explode, then become brazen and ornery.  Sort of like a cat.  Back and forth.  I think, now, the real challenge is finding the middle ground--assertive, calm, confident. 

And, as far as success goes, I am the only child of N parents in my FOO that has attained any semblence of an education and been able to work consistently.  Ruined sis and GC bro are not able to work and still live at home with the Ns even though they are near middle-aged.  But, success for me does not equate to education or job.  Success for me is how I feel about myself, what kind of parent I am, what kind of friend I am, etc.  Not very intellectual, I guess.  But that's what came to mind. 

Joy

[cantors.counter]

Some of us are happy loners and some are unhappy loners.

*wry smile*

Oh, how true, how true. Actually, I think I've been both of those, lol.

I, too, have been both compliant and rebellious. I was full-in compliant for the first 30+ years. Who I was and what I did were both exactly what my NF wanted. He literally told me what I should do in my life, and I tried to accomplish it. As the world sees it, I was much more "successful" when I was compliant; I was also much more suicidal. I'm definitely more happy now and more self-aware (oh, how I hate psychobabble!), and more of a real person. The world would consider me less successful, but then again, I've decided not to care about the world's definition any longer. I've recalibrated my scale to what success truly is. If my children grow up to be truly happy, loving human beings, then I am a success regardless of anything else.

[Lucky]

I must say that I am not always docile, sometimes I do get quite angry. But often I manage to keep it in check and not show it too much. I sometimes have these passive and not so passive agressive episodes with my husband when I am snapping at him and being really mean (mostly when I am stressed out) but luckily that does not happen too often because I don't like to regress to being like my NM! But she acted like that most of the time.

[HeartofPilgrimage]

I'm coming to believe there is definitely a link between parental Narcissism and borderline personality disorder. NOT that I am suggesting anybody that posts on this forum has BPD ... but out of the people I know that do, they typically have a VERY narcissistic parent, especially an N mother. (Why is it I feel compelled to say "AN N" but if I write out the whole word, it's "A narcissist"? I digress) ... there is more to BPD than just rapid swings from one mode to another, but the question you are asking could be a component to the way BPD people respond to stress. People with this problem stuff their emotions until they just can't stand it anymore, and then they explode. So, you could say they swing from being a "little voice" to aggressively making sure you are heard.

I have had this pattern of expressing my emotions, although I don't qualify for BPD in any way and it is not so severe that I have ruined relationships are anything (thank goodness!). I have had to learn to assert myself even when I am in "little voice" mode because I know if I don't, I will eventually blow. up.

I have found Marsha Linehan's Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) tremendously helpful. You can get workbooks on DBT skills anywhere books are sold, and so although being in a DBT program is important for somebody that actually has BPD, for those of us with milder problems you can start practicing DBT skills on your own. I actually have experience teaching DBT skills to others, and ironically (and serendipitously!!!!) it saved my life in several situations!!!

Briefly, DBT teaches that there are three mind states: emotional mind, wise mind, and reasonable mind. Imagine them as three overlapping circles in a row. Emotional mind is the left circle, reasonable mind is the right circle, and wise mind is the middle circle. When we are aggressively asserting ourselves and working off the sheer emotion and frustration of not being heard, we are in emotional mind. Rage, terror, suicidality, etc. all fall within emotional mind. When we are in "little voice" mode, we are usually in reasonable mind. We are trying to be reasonable, not "overreact" as we have always been accused of doing, keeping a lid on our gut reactions to injustice, not trusting our "gut" which is of course EMOTIONAL MIND. DBT teaches you to live MOST of your time in "wise mind" --- the middle circle. Wise mind is the place where you LISTEN TO and RESPECT your emotional reactions, your "gut feelings" but does not let those gut feelings completely take over and drive the bus. You retain your ability to be strategic about how you express your emotions; you are able to discern whether you are taking your rage out on the wrong person, or if it will do you any good to tell them off, or if you will have to pay too dearly for what you are tempted to do. BUT you still respect that your gut, your emotions, are there for a reason and should be respected at all times. Your emotions are not ignored or invalidated but rather put to good use.

I do a DBT worksheet when I get overwhelmed and it really helps ... and so far I'm not a patient or client at all!!!!

[Lucky]

I believe there is some link between BPD and PTSD. I think both are caused by extreme stress. The balancing act between the little voice, the assertive voice and the aggressive voice is difficult. Sometimes I don't voice enough not even in an assertive way and at other times I voice too much in a too aggressive way. Unfortunately it is mostly my husband you gets to suffer. But it can happen with others as well but not easily.
Thank you HeartofPilgrimage for telling me about Marsha Linehan's Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) I had never heard of it. Recently I had been looking into my Meyers Briggs personality and it turned out that I am INTJ. I have started reading a lot about that personality and joined an INTJ board. It appears that that type of person is very thinking/rational/reasonable and does not easily get angry. That is how I am and I do not very quickly become angry but if I do I often suck it up and don't show it. If I do that for too long a period and after a number of incidents then I can become somewhat of a pressure cooker at the point to explode. Unfortunately I often choose the depression route instead of the acting out route.

I just found this page that gives a good description and explanation: http://priory.com/dbt.htm