Mirroring and Marking

[HeartofPilgrimage]

About mother-infant interactions ... Some of the newest research on mother-infant relationships go beyond the concept of mirroring to "marking." Marking is when the adult in the dyad shows the baby that his/her emotions are shared but does it in such a way that it is clear that it is the BABY's emotions and not the ADULT's emotions. This is a hard concept to put into words but most of us would understand it if we saw a video. It is also something that we might could learn if somebody taught us, but for the most part either you have the ability to both mirror and mark your baby's emotions or you don't, because you get it from your own infancy.

I just noticed something when watching my own mother try to sooth my granddaughter this weekend. While she was trying to sooth her, I was getting more and more nervous. Something about her style of soothing I found unnerving. And it occurred to me that I felt that way when she was with my own babies, and with myself when I was little. She was trying hard to be soothing but totally missing the mark.

I think that when babies get upset, she gets upset. So there was mirroring but no marking. She became nervous and upset when the baby became nervous and upset, which is not effective in soothing a baby. So even though it's not her fault she lacks this ability, I can still see how my own emotions became hard for me to manage.

[bearwithme]

Heart:  I think this point is fascinating.   Please elaborate if you can. I know it's hard to explain but I "think" I understand but need an example if you have one.

Only 18 months ago, my daughter was an infant and when she got upset, I was happy to hold her and snuggle her to my shoulder and rub her back.  She never fussed too long (unless really hungry or gassy, etc.) But I always felt extremely comfortable holding her, and in fact, never wanted to put her down.  Is this mirroring?  Or marking?

Also, when my daughter cried in infancy, I never hesitated to pick her up, even if I was too exhausted to breathe I managed to soothe her cries.  I don't remember ever being upset when she cried to "mirror" her.  Is that right?  Should the mother be upset along with the infant or should she be the comforting one?  I'm confused as to what mirroring entails and how we as mothers "mark" the emotion (?)

Sorry for all the questions Heart...I know you understand more than I do

Bear

[sKePTiKal]

Hey Heart... I just posted something related on the book thread...

are you saying:

Mirroring = Mom feeling the same emotion that baby does?
Marking = acknowledging baby's feelings - but only feeling her own?

Or do I have this backwards?

And biggest question of ALL... how does Mom "know" what baby is feeling? What superhuman power is Mom is endowed with? And what if she gets it all wrong... and instead projects her OWN feelings onto baby - because she simply can't know what baby IS feeling, until baby can express itself? Is that "mirroring"?

[HeartofPilgrimage]

CB and PR, you both have this concept down very well. I can't really add much, but CB, you are very astute when you say that "marking" is the beginning of boundary-setting. And that the emotional management that a healthy mom does with her children is the precursor to both personality and the way that dyad manages their boundaries throughout the lifespan.

An example of mirroring and marking would be when a baby cries, you make sympathetic sounds (oh, it's OK baby, yessss, I know you are hungry ... in an appropriately sympathetic tone) but you can look into their upset face or cuddle their tense body and not feel yourself getting tense and anxious and upset in response. You remain calm, and radiate calm with your manner, even though you may stick out your lower lip like the baby and furrow your brows like he/she does. It's similar to when somebody "puts on" an upset facial expression but you can tell they are not really upset, that it is "put on." So, the baby sees that you see how he/she feels, and is mirrored (he exists), but his emotions don't cause you to get upset too. His emotions are his and yours are yours. The first rudimentary form of a boundary.

In my mom's case, she would sing to the baby and jiggle her a little, and her voice would begin to quiver a little if the baby didn't calm down immediately. She was getting anxious and it came out in her manner even though she was trying to do the right thing. I think this comes from her own infancy --- that time when we learn that just because someone else is upset, doesn't mean we have to be.

Allan Schore wrote a thick book on the neurobiology of the mother/infant attachment relationship ... I wish I could remember the name right now. It was a really hard read ... but basically he condensed down a lot of neurobiological research and said that the mother acts like an "external frontal lobe" for the infant, as his/her own frontal lobe is relatively undeveloped. The frontal lobe is responsible for "executive function" --- the control room of the brain. The mother has to regulate the baby's emotions because his brain is not yet developed enough. So when he is getting too upset (say, upset enough to spit up his milk), the mother --- or grandma, or dad --- must hold and soothe and reassure him that he is OK. Or when he is sluggish and inactive, the mother --- here it's more likely the dad or the grandma
--- comes into his field of vision and engages him in play that ramps up positive emotions.

More later, Pilgrim

[Ami]

I am discovering something.*I* could not see myself. In my FOO, EVERYONE was a blank--the Blank Family.( I feel like I should be a writer for the Twilight Zone.)
 When I asked my M for help cuz I was being abused, she sided with my abusive H against me.   No matter how much I asked for help, they did not help me and instead kept siding with my H.
 The other part was that my M loved to hurt me. She enjoyed seeing me suffer.She always has.
 Anyway, *I* could not see myself so never really KNEW if I was being abused or just imaging it .So, I stayed with my H and stayed with a relationship with them cuz I could not see myself.
             Ami

[HeartofPilgrimage]

Ami, It sounds like you didn't have either mirroring OR marking ... and either something traumatic happened to your mother to cause her to numb out that way, OR this terrible terrible deficiency goes back generations in your family. Sometimes you can trace it through family stories.

Have you ever known somebody that hurt themselves on purpose? And, if you ask them why, sometimes they will say, "So I would feel something, so I would know I am alive"? I wonder if your mother is so messed up, that she didn't see any difference between you and her, and when she hurt you, she was hurting herself ... so she would know she was alive by watching your reactions. A very sick thing to do to anybody, especially your own child, but then, you knew that she was messed up anyway.

I'm glad you survived. I'm glad you are still in the game (of life).

[Ami]

That was BRILLIANT, Hop. I never thought of it that way. Thank you! Hang in there with the AD withdrawals Sweetie!   xxoo  Ami

[bearwithme]

Thanks for the explanations CB & Heart.  It is coming more clear.  I'm curious to see what Dr.G's explanation of mirroring and marking would be...his working hypothesis if you will.

If I understand this here, then mirroring and marking really go hand in hand. The N can not possibly have one without the other which ultimately makes them the N.  If you mirror the infant then you ultimately mark that they are separate beings by simply having empathy--you are different than me; you are upset and I understand that; my actions show you that you are worth understanding; I will love and comfort you despite myself.

If you have the healthy ability to mirror your infant then marking is not far behind or may just come naturally in the process of simply comforting your baby. You don't even know you're doing it.  Like when an infant cries, I believe that it is not just because they are hungry, tired, gassy or fussy; babies have the instinct to cry when they want to be held for survival purposes which provides for crucial brain development.  It is when a mother responds to each and every cry the same way, with love, comforting, holding and calmness that the baby realizes (at least my baby seemed to) that she can "trust" the mother.  This "trust" feeling has to be from "marking" by the mother.  Yes?  

My NM did not mirror me nor does she now.  When she would rage on us and my dad, which in turn made us as children upset, she couldn't fathom why or how we would EVER by upset, it was about her being upset.  Period.  

When I was an infant, I don't know what she did because I can't remember.  I don't know if she picked me up each time I wanted to be held and made eye contact with me to let me know that she "knew" I was crying and upset.  She fed me, obviously I didn't starve.  She held me, obviously my brain developed and I survived.  But what lacked was mirroring and marking and to the extent, I will never know.  


The neurological impact on our brains by the N's gives for good research!  

Bear

[Sealynx]

I will always remember the confusing compliment my mother used to pay me. She'd tell me what long legs I had and I'd look down at my perfectly ordinary legs and try to figure out where they were long. It seemed to be such a harmless statement that I couldn't imagine anyone lying about it. I later realized that had studied dance in college and always wanted longer legs.

I agree that they can't market or mirror. I spent a lot of my childhood looking for the things she said I had and feeling inadequate because I couldn't find them.  It made the world that much more difficult to fathom.

[English]

I have a question.  I have a tendency to copy other people's emotions when I am around them.   If someone is friendly and outgoing, then I am.  If someone is reserved, then I am.  Is this related to mirroring?  This is such an interesting topic. 

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi bearwithme,

I see these issues in terms of empathy and positive differentiation.  Empathy—meaning that I can feel what you are feeling: you have communicated it to me, and therefore you are not alone, and I will be able to respond to your emotional needs.  And positive differentiation—we don’t have to feel the same thing/way for me to value you (and, therefore, ensure your survival).  Narcissistic parents fail at both.

Best,

Richard 

[bearwithme]

Wow, Dr. G!  That hits it home!  Thank you for your feedback.


Regards,

Bear

[Ami]

I always ask people"Do you know what I am feeling?" It is like I am desperate to know that I am  not alone in my feelings. It must come from this. Thanks Dr G.           Ami

[HeartofPilgrimage]

I think my mom, as I described in my first post, can mirror but the marking part doesn't come as easily. If I don't get upset when she does, or even if I am not AS upset as she is, she feels like I don't understand. It hurts her feelings for me to remain detached from her upset. When my son got his girlfriend pregnant and they were preparing for a "shotgun" wedding, so to speak, my mother stated that he had ruined his life. When I could not leave it like that, and stated calmly that I don't think he has ruined his life, then later she accused me of "not thinking there is anything wrong with what he did." I asked her how she came to that conclusion, and she said well, you said he had not ruined his life. I (for once!) stayed calm and asked how did she jump from "no he has not ruined his life" to "everything he has done is OK." She kind of conceded that the two were different, but you could tell that emotionally she hadn't changed. In other words, if I did not join her in her emotional overreaction (catastrophizing the pregnancy), then I must not be upset at all. And she also reamed me because I talked to other people about the situation but not her ... but I didn't talk to her because she makes everything into "the world is ending". Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[teartracks]

Hi Pilgrim,

This is a very interesting thread.

When I get back to my digs, I will be reading and absorbing it all.


Thanks...

tt