about apologies

[Hopalong]

Ales' thread made me think of posting this.

One of the dynamics with my D that I've found very hurtful, though lately I'm more just "observing" it, is that she won't accept an apology. When I understand something I've done that offended her (a very long list), I will sincerely apologize. I often get:

1) silence
2) well this is what ELSE you did, etc etc

Usually, no acknowledgement.

She tried to explain to me once that an apology is meaningless. I didn't get it.

So I thought a thread about apology would be good. Let's stipulate that sincere apologies are good, insincere ones mean nothing, and that if there's never any behavior change they're meaningless. Or a social tic.

I'm still frustrated about her lack of forgiveness but I know it's not my decision.

Anybody been there?

Hops

[HeartofPilgrimage]

My daughter is a very bitter, jealous, and grudge-holding person too. She still gets livid about things we told her "no" about from years back, and never gets that our "no" was to protect her health or safety.

I think apologies are crucial. The other two alternatives are 1) never make a mistake or do something wrong, or 2) never make an attempt to repair damage your actions caused. If you try to repair without saying explicitly "I'm sorry and here's what I want to do to try to make it right" --- the other person may not ever understand what your intention is.

Sometimes I feel stupid apologizing to somebody that I am reasonably sure doesn't have the capacity to totally let go of their resentment, but for my own soul's sake I think I need to do it anyway.

[Gabben]

My mom has tried many times to apologize to me for the ways that she treated me when growing up. She gets very intent on making her apologies to me. She gets forceful, saying things like "you need to hear this" or "I really need for you to listen."

These statements tell me that her apology is not about me and the pain she caused me at all, it is about her needing to alleviate guilt and feel better.

Not saying that you are doing this at all, Hops. I am just giving you a perspective. Apologizing is a hard thing to do and I respect anyone, including my mom, for even admitting that they need to make an amends, no matter how it goes about.

The best apologies I have ever heard are the ones where people have acknowledged my pain, simply with a statement of "my behavior was selfish, it hurt you, I want to never hurt you again." Without excuse or justification, with a heart that fully has stepped out of themselves into mine heart.

In AA, we often talk about how important living amends are, the actually showing or demonstration of good will, most importantly acting differently.

Your daughter just may be not ready to fully feel her feelings, sometimes my apologies to others can stir up pain that is not ready to be faced by them.

It may just be that she still wants her anger, her resentments, she does not want to feel less than or belittled by an apology, as some do.

Hope this helps,

Hugs,
Lise

[Hopalong]

Yes, Pilgrim...for my own soul's sake.
I love that, and it feels right.

And Lise, that was very helpful.
About her not being ready to feel it all, and fearing being belittled by it...and esp. the AA wisdom about living amends being the most important thing.

thank you!

I am sure there are so many feelings around apology...it's one word for a big thing.

Forgiveness isn't hooked to it. It stands on its own.

love
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hopsy...

does she get at all, that by not accepting your apology and attempting to find a new equilibrium in your relationship... that it is herself, making herself continue to endure anger, resentment, and feeling bad?

[bearwithme]

Phoenix has a good point.  I think if she continually dismisses the apology then she will end up with resentment and that is something no one can apologize for.  It's over!  One thing here, perhaps you D Hops, wants more than an apology.  Like she wants for you to go back in time and erase the error so she won't feel the way she does.  That's a bit like holding a grudge but I think that's what she's doing.  When she also mentions "this is what else you are doing, blah, blah, blah," I think she wants justice for what you did.  Like for you to feel bad and ashamed and cry and be all devastated, etc.  I don't know if that makes sense or not? 

Learning to accept an apology is hard for some people.  I think they want punishment for that person instead of an apology because they think they have to forgive them which may look like weakness or something.

Like you said Hop, the forgiveness part is separate and maybe if you instill that part in her she will feel a bit more empowered.  If she know she could take her time with the "forgiveness" part then she could be open to the apology part a bit better because she won't feel so weak or that she then had a job to do just because you said sorry.  She can accept the apology and then THINK about the forgiveness part and what that means to her personally.  No?

I'm sorry myself!  I don't have profound advice or information here....just thinking outloud.

Good luck Hoppy!!!!

Bear

[Hopalong]

Thanks very much, Amber and Bear...

PR, it's hard for me to recognize that she really isn't getting the connection between her attitude (or beliefs) and her misery, but she's not. She hasn't been immersed in spiritual or psychological pursuits in recent years. She's blunt and raw and just looking for a target to pin the pain on, and doesn't see that she hurting herself as much as me when she lashes out. Her "temperature" of hostility toward me has eased down lately though and we are talking more and better, so there's certainly hope this will change. Long view, long view...

Bear, you're insightful. She's definitely having a very hard time letting go of the grudges. I did notice that when I write her lovingly and talk about perspective, and how this is a temporary chapter in her life, and all things will change inevitably, and she's going to have happiness ahead, but this is about enduring the present with as much grace as she can summon, she calms down a bit and her tone changes. She's said please and thank you today!

I am noticing that rather than just apologizing, it seems to help to add something like, "And if there's any way I could go back and undo the mistakes I made that hurt you, I surely would." She needs to hear that more, I think, until she is able to loosen her grip on the past.

I so wish she would connect with other people in this community who are doing things like meditation etc. But she's isolated herself, ashamed of being unemployed, and gets fixated on trivial domestic things that she turns into huge power struggles. She's looking for a therapist and has some sort of appt. on Friday (I'm not prying) so I do have hope.

Hops

[KatG]

Forgiveness of self could help one then forgive others.  Is she angry at herself for things that she can't forgive about herself?  Just figured it's worth a try.
Good luck, KatG

[swimmer]

Apologies are interesting for me to think about.  In the home where I grew up sorry did not really mean sorry, it was said with an angry sarcasm.  I think an apology is a step to expressing remorse.  In some circumstances we cannot feel remorse, as nothing was done or said wrong.  I'm a big fan of saying, I'm sorry this happened to you, and then apologize for any part of I had.  

  Sometimes a person who need's an apology just needs validation or clarification (some sort of human touch).  I rarely blindly say sorry, unless I'm truly regrettful for what I did.  If I have a close relationship with the person and say in general, I'm sorry this happened to you, or this has been difficult.  I'm not sure if this makes sense.... I've thought a lot about apologies and forgiveness in the past 20 years.  I continually have to examine if I really need to be sorry for something or not, sometimes I get in a trap of being sorry for things I had no responsibility to feel accepted and loved.  

Swimmer  

[bearwithme]

Swimmer wrote:

Sometimes a person who need's an apology just needs validation or clarification (some sort of human touch).  I rarely blindly say sorry, unless I'm truly regrettful for what I did.  If I have a close relationship with the person and say in general, I'm sorry this happened to you, or this has been difficult.  I'm not sure if this makes sense.... I've thought a lot about apologies and forgiveness in the past 20 years.  I continually have to examine if I really need to be sorry for something or not, sometimes I get in a trap of being sorry for things I had no responsibility to feel accepted and loved.   

I think this hits close to home for me.  I say sorry too easily and way too often to people that don't really deserve it or appreciate it.

Good thread.

Bear

[Hopalong]

Kat, yes, I think that's true.

Swimmer and Bear...I agree...overapologizing's awful too. A tic. Fear based.

It's a mess.

Hops

[debkor]

Hops,

Are you sure you are the only one she is angry with?  Do you think you are the only one there who can say your sorry, I would go back, I love you...and some anger is towards her father and all she has is you to unleash hell upon?  Unconditional my mom will always love and not abandon me.  Your taking a beating for two parents because you are the only one that can, maybe?

Love
Deb

[Hopalong]

Definitely, you're right Deb...and she acknowledged that openly at one point.

love
Hops

[debkor]

Hey Hops,

Back to apologies...Yes for me an apology was meaningless even if heart felt by the offender.  This did not mean I was not aware they were suffering from what they had caused me to feel and on such a deep level.  Both of us were feeling terrible.  It took sometime to realize that not only one of us had a base ball bat beating against our inside it was two. I was not alone in this feeling although I was damaged and angry to never forgive (yeah sure) I'm incapable of not forgiving (what is that) for me understanding my pain where it belongs and what I own for making it even worse (because of anger) and truly in time letting it go.  Letting it go when working through the pain with the other can get very messy and I had to realize I was making excuses to hold on to it because of my own F*up's that either was by mistake, poor choice, or just every day life ups and downs.  I became aggressive ...it was even messy within myself.  Things kind of go all over the place. 

Anger is a terrible thing to hold on to and even more terrible to not know how to let it go..Ofcourse I wanted to forgive (I hated not doing it) but I do think in some way I was angry when I wanted to let it go because Hoppy I loved the person and I would have rather hate them.  It seems so much simpler (like it would be gone) never would it be I would still be holding on to a connection even if it was hate....(I don't think I'm capable of that either) No hoppy I wanted to feel the love and did but was kicking my own ass not just letting things go even for myself (my own screw ups) which came in so handy when I was projecting (my own shit) and I knew it in Anger.....Swing away!  Lots of fear of being vulnerable again being vulnerable was to (in my head) let it go open to be hurt again.

The one thing though is the other person let me or I didn't care if they let me they atleast just sat there and I went to town.  And it was out.  Gone, done, and I didn't care if they said they were sorry they just gave me my (voice) I'm so F*ing Mad.  I had to have a come down time though let it fade out.

I let it go.  I forgave.  An apology was meaningless.  I already knew that they were sorry but NOW was the hard part and it was in the NOW finally and then you get the next Now...but I do think that is all we really have and what you want to do with it...It does get messy at times even if your working through it alone.. sometimes we have to...I did...You did....

And hoppy...this time your not alone!!  You both are working it.

I do think it is difficult for M and D (female to female) but that is a whole diifferent post.

.
Love
Deb




 

[river]

I have different take on some of what has been said. 
I learnt about apology because of making amends in recovery.   For me, apology has nothing to do with being forgiven.  We apologise in order to clear our own side of the street, regardless of the other's response.   From there, once one has clearly and unilaterally acknowledged and got the 's word' out and into the air, thats it, you can leave it, as you say, if its combined with an effort towards changed behaviour.   
HOWEVER. it really is painful when someone continues to attack, because apologising makes one vulnerable.   But you just have to know, you've said the word, and continue your path of continued attempts at improvement. 

thats the attitude I came to.  The continuing attempts at improvement, well, thats another story!