Author Topic: Have you ever seen an N do this?  (Read 4063 times)

mattiedread

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Have you ever seen an N do this?
« on: October 21, 2004, 09:38:41 AM »
I've had almost no contact with my Nmother (family) for 5 years. After my father died my brother and sister stepped up their exploitation and re-wrote the survivor's (mother) will... leaving me completely out.

Anyway, my Nmother has infrequent (as she aged the frequency decreased) moments (as she aged the duration also decreased) of 'self-actualization'. For instance, on one occasion she admitted in front of my entire family (siblings, spouses) that she 'hadn't been a good mother to her last child' (me). There have been several others over the decades. Any attempt to pry into a statement is immediately met with denial of ever having said it (and, my siblings and their spouses will deny it was ever said also, even though it was as plain as day 10 seconds ago and you can tell by their reaction that they heard it verbatim the way my wife and I did). It sends the fear of 'not being able to hoard the family fortune' into them.

They are fleeting moments and are almost immediately replaced with standard N attitudes and behavior to the next degree (need a quick fix of 'supply', and it has to go around).

I'm wondering if anyone else has seen the brief moments when an N seems to show remorse, or 'self actualization' where they clearly exibit a knowledge that what they do is wrong.

I guess the real question is, deep inside do N's know what they do is wrong?

I have a follow up post once I receive some input (I could post dozens of examples that seem to show evidence amongst the three Ns in my family of these brief moments of remorse, and will happily post a great example from each N).

But the true purpose of this question is that I'm wondering if I should send her into one of those moments (I know exactly how to do it, and it drives my siblings crazy because they now have to supply her). I did last July 4th by stopping by her beach house when I knew she would be there alone. She came downstairs, not having seen me in over two years and tried to hug me. I backed off, and asked simply: "Do you have any remorse or regrets...."

Of course she responded that she had never done anything wrong, I misunderstood/misinterpreted and I was the bad one, she was the victem etc. etc. etc. But, I knew (as did my wife when I told her) that I'd be getting phone calls and emails from my siblings (again, they fear not being able to hoard the family fortune). I knew as I was pulling out of her driveway that she was dialing my sister and pouring her heart out about what they had done to me was wrong.

Of course when I did get the phone call from my brother (a total N, to the nth degree) and said to him, Edith (our mother) is completely aware that she was extremely abusive to me over the years. His (or should I say HIS, as a child I called him Chris All Mighty) response was that she (they) were not abusive, I was and they were the victems.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Anonymous

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Have you ever seen an N do this?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2004, 11:50:33 AM »
Ellie - not lgged in

I've heard things like that before from Nmom, but it kinda slips out, then she retracts it immediately. It's as though it's on her mind, she wants to admit the wrong doing, but doesn't really have to be sorry for it if she denies it later.

I'm not sure what goes on in their heads about this stuff. I KNOW Ndad knows he's a mean son-of-a-beetch to me. He admits it. He thinks the world revolves around him so much that he can be as mean as he wants - then demand that I still love and respect him. I do not think this man has ever loved anyone or anything but himself in his entire life. He doesn't even think he has to love anyone. He thinks he just demands everything he wants from everybody and he'll get it. He still has my 2 sisters scared sheetless and they will never stand up to him. I stood up to him this summer and told him he didn't and couldn't scare me anymore. He went into a fearsome rage! Then he disowned me.

He's a very mentally sick person. He's diabetic and blames the world for it. We were not allowed to eat sweats in front of him because he said we were parading and tempting him on purpose. You know, the  "it's all about me" scenario.

But Nmom seems to not like what has happened in the past, she appears to want to face up to it at times, but I'm guessing Ndad gets in the way and admonishes her for it, telling her I'm all wrong and they deserve a better daughter.

She knows I have set limits and rules now for how I will be treated and has, at times appeared to cross over to the sane life, but it is fleeting - like she's more comfortable hating me and wanting to destroy my life more than accept the past for what it was and make things better.

bunny

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Have you ever seen an N do this?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2004, 01:16:56 PM »
My NMIL had a few moments of insight about what a b---- she was. It didn't matter. She continued her behavior exactly as before.

As to whether you should purposely provoke your mom and siblings.... if you think your mom will actually change her will because of it, then it might be practical. Otherwise, why bother.

bunny

Anonymous

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Have you ever seen an N do this?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2004, 01:15:41 AM »
good question...  Matter of fact, it is the question that makes me crazy & I keep having fleeting moments of hop ("could they really get better"), & then always get let down again w/ my disappointment.  

My best example was my ex:  He came back to me, almost in tears.  Said he would never hurt me again, he really loved me, & promised we would work things out & he would never leave my side again.  He left town 24 hours later...

BlueTopaz

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Have you ever seen an N do this?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2004, 02:41:45 PM »
In my experience with a dating partner with N traits, and via the reading & participation in N forums, I have noticed two things.

1) Pseudo-insight.   This kind of insight and remorse is merely a manipulation used as a hook by the N person to win over the other, who might be angry at their behavior.   It is also used by many abusers in general to placate their victims.  To keep them from leaving (or withdrawing N supply),  and keep the whole unhealthy dynamic going.   It is the cliché underlying message “I’ve changed/seen the error of my ways, I will work on myself so it doesn’t again” …     But of course… it does….

2)  I believe that some N’s can have very real and true moments of insight into their behavior as being “wrong” and hurtful, and abusive….    I also believe that some (not psychopathic N’s ) can feel true remorse about the hurt they have caused in small instants of moments….

But... the key… that I always remember, and the shame of it all, is that insight alone does not indicate inner learning or facilitate change.    There has to be something more present.   Some sort of consistency to be able to stay with the insight, to introspect, consistency at empathy and some stability in emotional maturity.

By the very definition of the disorder, N does not have these psychological abilities, so sadly, any moments of insights or remorse are just that, fleeting moments….    

It is easy to be tricked into the hope of change because of them, but generally speaking, they can’t be permanent.  

BT

findingme

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Have you ever seen an N do this?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2004, 08:47:01 PM »
Quote
But... the *key*… that I always remember, and the shame of it all, is that insight alone does not indicate inner learning or facilitate change.
   

It is easy to be tricked into the hope of change because of them, but generally speaking, they can’t be permanent.
 

BT -

Excellent points!  I haven't thought of it from that perspective, but it makes a lot of sense.  

fm

Anonymous

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Have you ever seen an N do this?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2004, 11:56:37 AM »
I agree with Blue Topaz - It's pseudo insight.  An attempt to see if she can get you back into the N -Supply house.  

What you did in July gave her an opportunity to get N supply from your siblings.  She had something to call them about and get fake sympathy from them.  So I suppose you could have "fun" manipulating her into getting them all into an N supply contest on a frequent basis.  But then that would make your behavior somewhat like theirs - so why bother.

I think you're still hoping to find a way to crack the N open and get the validation you never received.  It won't happen - its sad, frustrating and unfair - but reality.

Max

Liv

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Have you ever seen an N do this?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2004, 04:45:40 PM »
I like the way Dr. Phil puts it "insight without action is useless". My N has insight or wisdom but NEVER does anything about changing. And I mean NEVER, EVER, EVER. She can't change..she is stuck. But it doesn't seem to be a contradiction to her even though she is intelligent.

Anonymous

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Re: Have you ever seen an N do this?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2004, 02:23:25 AM »
Kiba Jin ~ not logged in

I did get my mother to read some N books and she admited she saw herself there and even told me sorry for what she'd done to "f#ck up my life".  I accepted the aplology and what not, but no she hasn't stopped doing it. Indeed, I feel that now that I'm standing up and being myself more and more *and less under the parents' control* she's intensifying her nasty punishing behaviors....so is father dear.

Looking back at the apology...now I'm cynical and think it was just some way to turn the focus back on her -- 'Look how much I screwed up your life. Oh I've been such a lousy parent' Not to mention the the unspoken assessment that I'm some sort of screwed up retard of an offspring because of her lousy parenting...at least that's what I was reading between the lines. Where am I in all this? Dunno...maybe I'm just props n' scenery to be used in her grand sorry drama of life.  Abuse just plain sucks.

peace.

mattidread

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Just a quick follow up...
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2004, 11:13:58 AM »
One other incident that I should plug in here. My sister is also an N, her main supply need is rooted in extreme jealousy (people literally pick up on her jealousy in minutes after first meeting her... she can't hide her feelings and her body language/voice tells all).

Anyway, on my wedding day she was so jealous that she wasn't the center of attention (and, she was 41 years old at the time). Between the church and the reception we all went to my family's house for pictures, celebration etc. She basically hid upstairs, coming downstairs every few minutes to complain. One of my closest friends said to her "Hey, it is Matt's day, relax." She replied, "If I hear that one more time I'm going to (do something, I don't recall)."

Seconds later I put my sunglasses around my champagne glass and ran outside for a quick photo. During the literally 60 seconds I was gone she picked up my $200 sunglasses (I'm blind without them and was leaving for Africa in two days) dropped them on the floor, stepped on them and ran upstairs (she was 41 at the time). She didn't think anyone had seen her, but, they had.

She was miserable the whole time she was around. Came late to the reception, was the first to leave. The matre'd told me she was the biggest beeatch he had ever met (they had to prepare a special meal for her, which is always the case when we go somewhere and she needs more attention). And, she wore the same dress to my wedding that she had to my father's funeral 6 months earlier.

A year later, she picks up my sunglasses, puts them on for a few minutes and for the next several days talks about how great these glasses are and now she knows my I like them so much. That is her way of showing remorse. But (and this is the point) each time she has done something of that nature (she knows I know, but would never say anything about what she did) and shown 'remorse' she steps up the level of viciousness in her subsequent attacks... and this is greeted with great acceptance by mother (as it validates her behavior).

I still have the glasses, wear them everyday (went into a glass shop two hours before leaving for the airport and they 'fixed' them for free, I've since had the manufacturer repair or replace parts of the frame three times).

I have lots of stories like this... and I could go on and on about how she behaved before, after and during my wedding (and I have some of it on video).

Anonymous

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Have you ever seen an N do this?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2004, 12:00:26 PM »
my mother is completely disconnected.  She acts out, says crazy or mean things.  If you get her in a better mood and try to talk about stuff she completely denies the possibility of ever having said any of it.

Poor bewildered child (me) - spent my whole life fearing I was crazy deep down - turns out it's nMom!

Anonymous

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Have you ever seen an N do this?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2004, 01:15:12 PM »
I took my 80 year old Nmother to the grocery store last Sunday. Was going to show her a new product I had tried and liked, and when we got to that aisle there were two other older women whose shopping cart was in Nmom's way. Well, she proceeded to ram their cart not just once, but repeatedly and furiously, and then marched on up the aisle without a backward glance.

Fortunately the other women weren't holding on to the cart at the time, but they were openly astonished. I was a bit behind and saw them shaking their heads saying they had never seen anything so vicious. When I caught up with Nmom she had this odd little smile on her face. She didn't say anything about what she had done, and coward that I am, neither did I. Or maybe it was just my well developed sense of self-preservation kicking in.

Quote from: mattiedread
I guess the real question is, deep inside do N's know what they do is wrong?


That's a good question. I'm beginning to think maybe she's crossed the line and I should be looking for professional assistance, but stuff like this has gone on for as long as I can remember. I think she knows on some level that what she does isn't socially quite acceptable, but I doubt she considers herself in the wrong. Whenever her actions seem over the line, she blames the person who "drove her to it," and does an about turn into seemingly complete lucidity so that even if you witness the irrational behavior first hand, you end up questioning your perception.

Quote from: guest
Poor bewildered child (me) - spent my whole life fearing I was crazy deep down...


Exactly. To this day if I had to go against her in a sanity contest, well forget it. Might as well not bother and just go get measured for my strait jacket.

Singer

wondering

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Double Standard
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2004, 10:29:23 PM »
Quote
I guess the real question is, deep inside do N's know what they do is wrong?


I think they have a double standard.  If it were done TO them or they observe anyone ELSE doing it then it is wrong.  If THEY do it, it is NOT wrong because they're special or entitled or getting away with something.  They are masters of rationalization.  

If you watch a movie or television program where the characters are exhibiting "N" behavior they will react against it - but they will not EVER admit to it even though they have done EXACTLY the same thing possibly moments before.  

If someone on Dr. Phil is behaving badly they'll criticize them even though they do exactly the same thing all the time.  So, apparently they "KNOW" it is wrong for OTHER PEOPLE to do but anything is acceptable if THEY are doing it.

They can also be incredibly passive-aggressive and totally oblivious to it.  If you tell them they will attack and claim they're the victim.  If you ask them if there is anything they want to say they'll do the same thing.  

No way will they ADMIT that they just did something hateful.  They may even KNOW YOU KNOW but they pretend that they have gotten away with it and act like they think you don't have a clue.

genuine

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They know what they are doing..
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2004, 09:44:22 PM »
HI mattiedread

Your circumstances mirrors not only my situation but that of my partners, where the narcissim within the family is so complex that not only do we have to deal with the parent but the vicious sibling/s as well. I know this is a weird word to convey but conspiritorial can sum it up best.  First of all I found it so encouraging to read that you have had virtually no contact with them for 5 years. At the end of this year my partner and I would have clocked 1 year without seeing our families but I'm still finding it hard. I suspect it gets easier as time goes by? I am disgusted that your siblings tinkered with the will. I suspect my oldest brother will do the same to me, as he controls my Nparents finances. He ripped me off $10,000 which I desperately need right now as I am on Disability for a panic disorder and just getting by. Am I right to assume your mother enabled them to leave you out of the will? if so then I'm shocked. Sounds like blatant favouritism in the family. I am the youngest in my family too and have been the brunt of everyone's abuse, so I understand you there. When you mention denial thats what my partner faces from his family everytime, he brings something up. They will never take responsiblity for what they have done to him. Yours probably won't either. They are jealous of you and your character because obviously you are the better person. I personally think they know EXACTLY what they are doing when they serve their narcissim on us. Also this hostility that your sister has towards you, could have been encouraged by your mother. My partner's parents made his younger brother hate him. Sick mind games. If I were you I wouldn't bother confronting her again if all she is going to do is elicit sympathy from one of your siblings. She broke the trust straight away. It was between you and her. What she did was wrong. Of course do what you feel is right but she sounds so much like my mother, they will never change. I remember once I had a fight with my partner and thinking irrationally I returned home to my Parents for a small break, well the next day I found out they had told my oldest brother and his wife that I broke up with my man which wasn't the case at all. They know I don't want a bar of my brother because he physically and emotionally abused me my whole life and his wife has taken my place in the family. Anyway my Dad offered to buy me a car thinking that I would never return to my 9 year relationship again. I told him where to stick it and returned home to my man. I was so pissed off, that they broke my trust again. My brother didn't have to know anything. Simple as that. Anyway I am raving on now. All the best, let us know what happens. Oh and by the way my partner and I are eloping to avoid the kind of hassles you had to put up with on your wedding day.

genuine
The more you depend on forces outside yourself, the more you are dominated by them.

Anonymous

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Good Feedback, thanks
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2004, 10:20:48 AM »
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply but this is the first opportunity I've had to check the board. The feedback really hits home and I appreciate it... it is cathartic to know you are not alone... which is why:

Genuine:
Conspiracy is a weird word, but, it is accurate. The word actually derives from latin: Con & Spire: to breath together. I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but, people in proximity have effects on each other's behavior to varying degrees. In the case of a family, even more so because of the heirarchy in place. I can only assume that this is magnified in a dysfunctional family. To whatever degree there has always been 'unwritten rules' of abuse in my family; directed primarily at me (as far as family members are concerned). Ironically, now that I have departed, my father and aunt are both dead (the other suppliers, to a much lesser degree, in my family) they behave like this directly toward other people (as opposed to talking behind their backs). It has cost them friendships and strained others. (I actually only know one person who is still friendly with my mother... they have guests at their beach house, but, even when I was around guests always kept a distance and visited once/year or where on the 'N list' of people who were worthy of their company).

I met a woman and her husband in Mexico whose many stories I'll paraphase to one: Her alcoholic brother was the golden child, could do no wrong. He lost his liscense after crashing his car dead drunk passed out at the wheel. One moring she went down to the driveway and her car wasn't there. She ran upstairs, her parents and other brother were sitting at the kitchen table, her other brother was passed out on the couch. After asking everybody if they knew where her car was (and they didn't) she woke her passed out brother. He said, "Yeah, your brakes are bad, you damn near killed me, I was lucky to get out of the accident alive." Her car was two blocks away, wrapped around a telephone pole.

To this day, her parents and brothers will claim she almost killed him (the brakes were fine, he was drunk as hell). The police suspect her in the accident (although everyone in the family knows who it is, they won't say a word and she feels they expect her to 'fess up' because that is her role in the family, always wrong, always to blame in any situation). Of course, the police also suspect him because they are familiar with his ways.
***********
Yes, my mother was more than complicit in them ripping me off. Not only that, but I and many other predicted that it would happen 20 years ago. My mother has always rewarded my siblings' N behavior, it validates her own as 'normal'.

As far as breaking trust is concerned, that is a standard in my family, and it appears to be the case in others on this board. Ns take it one step further and put a spin on it to make it sound worse than it actually is; a lot worse. To a third party listening to them you would think they had first hand knowledge, but, they are actually confabulating stories (and it gets to be a competition sometimes... who can take it to the most outlandish level). Of course, the moment the story is told, it becomes 'reality'. Hence the reason so many N's use the term "We have a different perspective on reality." To me this means they are aware of what they do, but, accept it as their entitlement because they are elevated relative to others mere mortals.

Even people who are/were 'friendly' with them have feelings of inferiority around them and they wonder why (or, at least in the few cases that I've heard). Each one of them has very few friends, hence the jealousy at my wedding where we had to limit our guests to 150... they couldn't get half of that and all but my sister eloped. Her wedding had 60 people show up out of over 100 invited.

As far as 'clocking a year'... the first year is the hardest and holidays are still difficult for me. But, every year it gets easier. It is a cycle. Sometimes I go months (or weeks, more acurately) without thinking of them at all or on rare occasion. Other times I obsess (and visit this board). Sometimes I'll have dreams (nightmares) that involve them night after night. But, I'll also go through periods where my dreams are normal and don't involve them.

When the holidays come around, try to 'catch' yourself every time you find yourself thinking about them. Tell yourself: It isn't me, it is them, I can thinking about them because I'm human and I'm obsessed with this failed family. There is nothing I could do. I could not change them; they will not change. Try to have a 'replacement' thought or a number of them... when you find yourself thinking about them force yourself to think of something else. There is a book for obsessive/compulsive behavior therapy that outlines this... not that you or I are truely obsesive/compulsive, but the technique is known to work for many behaviors.

I know a gentleman who had a narcissitic mother. He didn't speak with his mother or his twin sister for over 40 years. (His sister never married). Then, when his mother became terminal she wanted to bury the hatchet (sp?) Long story short she wished she had done things differently (not an outright apology or admission). Now he and his sister are close (she never married and has nobody) and she recognizes the error in her mother's ways. I'm not certain the mother was an N, but, from their descriptions, it sounds like it. He only met my family once (at my wedding) and almost immediately felt that something was seriously awry in the family (as did many people who were at my wedding... it was as if my mother, sister and brother were the center of attention, at least that is the way they behaved even towards my wife's family).

Good luck, stay strong and visit this board (although I find staying away from the rants and focusing on the 'it wasn't me, there was nothing I could do posts are beneficial, ranting has it's place, but, you should focus on acceptance and healing... much easier said than done as evidenced by visits to this board five years out.

Incidently, when I was 18 my parents and I went to family therapy (20 years ago). The therapists immediately recognized Axis II personality disorder and recomended (practically insisted) that I remove myself from that atmosphere the day I graduate high school (which was weeks away, at the time). The day after I graduated I did (I knew they were f'ed up), only to fall back two years later.