Identifying behaviors which create the voiceless role

[Logy]

Ah, Bear.  Talking to the wall.  Thank God we're not alone.

I do it so much and sometimes don't even realize I'm doing it.  My daughter was in the car with me one time when I started talking - not to her - but to the car - saying something I wished I'd said in a certain circumstance.  She turned to me and said "What are you talking about?".  I tried to explain but just felt crazy at that moment.

The concept of being honest, as so many have talked about here, is actually a very new concept for me.  And honesty and being nice seem to go hand in hand for Nparent survivors.  Not being nice was the worst thing anyone could say to me.  Anytime I was honest with my parents as a child about a situation, I was punished for not being nice (since my childlike honesty usually reflected poorly on them).  So I equated being honest with being punished. 

The worst part of it is that I was never honest with myself.  That has hurt me, it has hurt other people, when I was not true to myself.  It hurts others because I have presented a false person to them.  So they had expectations of me that in the end hurt both of us.

Logy

[bearwithme]

I do it so much and sometimes don't even realize I'm doing it.  My daughter was in the car with me one time when I started talking - not to her - but to the car - saying something I wished I'd said in a certain circumstance.  She turned to me and said "What are you talking about?".  I tried to explain but just felt crazy at that moment

Logy- This is  me!  My daughter even said to me "huh, mama?" I really felt crazy...

The worst part of it is that I was never honest with myself.

I really have a hard time with being honest with myself and true to myself.  The whole "voicelessness" is deep!

Swimmer wrote:

I really felt like my body was speaking, it was as if I didn't have a thought, but was saying everything right.  It was completely visceral.

This is the key to getting out of our voicelessness role!! If we could "switch" off that part of our brain (the emotions, pain, fear) when we are challenged by the N and speak the real truth without it being emotional but physical, rather, then I think I would have a much easier path in life.  I would have self-esteem, assertiveness, and pride.  So Swimmer, you did good!  I have only told off my NM a few times and it was wrought with gut wrenching emotion and pain that I was screaming at her....I felt violent inside and I'm not a violent person but I wanted to punch her so badly (that's another story for another thread).

Bear.

[swimmer]

Yes Bear, the first time I went NC with my mother in my 20's I didn't know she was an N.  I knew I couldn't say anything nice at that time and had dreams of hitting her with a baseball bat.  My N crossed so many of my personal boundaries up till that point, my psyche could not take anymore to stay a real person.  I'm not even a violent person. The more boundaries I set up with my mother, the bat fantasy eventually disappeared.

I've had numerous clear moments which I "told off" my mother, but they are just memories like a sunny day.  It did nothing to change her, if anything she used what I told her against me in the long run.  She would learn what normal people think is unacceptable, and "hide" these traits better from me and others to reel me and other N feeds in.  I hope this makes sense.  I guess I'm trying to say, the anger is healthy (I think so), and I personally used it as a barometer.... I can't always see when she crossed my personal space, cause she is so tricky.  Trust your feelings that you're not crazy for possibly loosing it.  The last time I lost it with my mother, I said this okay.... she is really nuts, so I felt bad about what she as doing but not about losing it.  Anyways.... the result has been the same for me, loosing it or totally standing up for myself with clarity..... The result was all the same, she would come back worse the next time.


Swimmer 

[bearwithme]

Thanks Swimmer.  I totally get the way that she has the same reaction whether you lose it or stick up for yourself with assertiveness.  They are weird that way, aren't they. 

Just me thinking aloud here:  I've just never heard of something as horrible as NPD.  I mean, it's so awful. It's so awful to have been raised with an NM.  I know there is other forms of abuse that are just as horrific or even more so like beating, sexual abuse and torturing, etc., but this mental Nism stuff plays out and along so slowly with consistency and with such tenacity that it becomes a slow torturous death of sorts.  I'm by now means minimizing the aforementioned forms of abuse but just trying to relate it to something AS horrific as those, per say.  It's almost impossible to describe at times and I guess it's goes back to the "nobody to work with" matter.  Like a ghost that's not a ghost but is a ghost that's not a ghost.

Children of N parents are in a league of their own and if you don't know it you can't explain it to people and expect them to understand.  But here, so, so, so, so many words are unspoken for each of us and we all somehow get it without verbalizing our thoughts and feelings to exhaustion-- and If I'm not wrong here, I know some of you can or will get my "ghost" perception as silly as it sounds.

Thank you for believing in ghosts.

Bear

[HeartofPilgrimage]

bearwithme, when I first read your post about "talking to the wall" I thought you were speaking of your relatives! Cause that's how I feel when speaking to some of mine. That I might as well be beating my head against a brick wall as trying to reason with them (or argue with them, for that matter). While some people such as you on this board may be needing to learn to stick up for yourself more, I need to learn when it's a lost cause and move on.

[lighter]

Hi Bear,

If you search Assertiveness Training or ask a women's organization where these workshops might be found in your community, that's what you need....

I requested them locally and a women's organization began to run them now and then.

They're an amazing experience. Really nips passive aggression in the bud and teaches you to feel safe about being in the present moment. Then you can speak.

hugs
Hops

Jumping in late here, but none the less.

I found that I got in the most trouble when I was doing well and feeling very confident..... stating boundaries in my life.

My problems started when I failed to consistently enforce those boundaries.

I felt strong enough to handle anything, I suppose.

I also didn't know how to assert myself in the right way, for the right reasons.

Reading books, like those suggested by Hops, has helped take the fear and stress out of speaking up for myself.

It's just a statement, not an invitation to have my life ruined, which is how it felt before.

Mo2