what mental illness looks like

[Portia]

Mud
But I'm coming around to accepting they may not be able to, in any real sense, choose the good.

I think they're incapable. To choose the good would hurt, i think. Perhaps because choosing the good might mean a denial of having something else? No, it's not that they choose the 'bad' either: they just choose what they want, regardless.

When we talk of choice, do we mean a thoughtful choice, aware of possible consequences? They react, minute to minute, hour to hour. Is that what we mean by choosing? Yes they choose between hot and cold, this one or that one. But moral choices? No way. No morality,only survival mechanisms.

No point in being moral about them either, that's like applying morality to ... a volcano. It's tough but I really think this now.
Note: question: what about those non-existent neural networks, the ones that shrivelled up? isn't that a physical abnormality? Or has that been disproved lately?

[swimmer]

Sea-  So sorry you have to go through this:(. These situations are crazymaking to say the least, and can be rather sad.... To see a loved one spiral down.

Remember you are not her keeper.  You've gone above and beyond what a family or dear friend would do.  Anything else you give in this type of situation will set you back, and who will pick you up then?  A domino effect.  It's hard to be the wall the domino's hit, but you'll fall as well if you don't keep straight up yourself.  You will not be able to fix this, life is very messy and it's hard to watch sometimes ((((((Sea))))))

If I were in 3D with you, I'd drop by some lavender hand cream and offer a shoulder to cry on.  I feel the impossible nature of this situation, you are not alone;)

My 2 cents....

[seastorm]

This has become a very interesting and informative thread.
I started researching mental illness and talking to someone who has a daughter with schizophrenia. Her daughter was an outstanding musician and composer and now she cant concentrate enough to do either. Mental illness robs people of many things and is very cruel in the way it forces people into isolation because of the stigma. Loved ones, and friends are not assisted in creating a safety net for someone with mental illness, ADD, or anything else. There are more humane ways of working with people with mental and emotional problems. We seem light years away from an enlighened approach.

I can rattle on theoretically about all this and that is important too. At this point, now that my sister has calmed down, I am just licking my wounds and thinking that I just have to detach with love when she is going through a storm. I could do this with a client but cant seem to with my sister. The zingers really hit me where I am vulnerable.

Mudpuppy, Thank you for your story about your son. Like you I love my sister and will never give up. However, I am going to have to find a way of going through this walking not wobbling.  As for Ns, there is no morality. Just not there, not programmed in and wont ever be there.  You are more relaxed about it than I am. At times I could bite the head off a live chicken because I feel so robbed etc. But it does no good.

CB:  All the definitions and descriptions help. Naming the thing helps a lot. But then what?? Understanding intellectually is a good start and then finding a plan or way of responding to the behaviour seems to be a place where not much is written. Kindness, good boundaries, soft voice, respect, listening.  I wish I was stronger.  Really graceful and did not take it personally.  Instead it scares me and all I can do is back off. Sometimes I am ok. It would make it so much easier if she admitted that she has a problem. Instead I think she would rather die than face that.

Swimmer: You are so right. I am nobodies keeper.  Life is messy. Thank you for being a witness for me.  Thanks for the lavender cream and your soft shoulder. Blessings to you.

Portia: I agree with you about Ns. I think it hurts them to choose the good. Just throws a wrench in the relentless wheels of their plans.

Thank God there are people like you to talk to. You have helped me through this.

Sea storm

[mudpuppy]

Mudpuppy, Thank you for your story about your son. Like you I love my sister and will never give up.

Fortunately our son has very little paranoia so we don't have to go through the rage and attacks you are enduring. But it is very sad to see a life wasted and the pain he endures. We've finally got him into the system at this point so perhaps he's on the road to recovereing some of what he's lost.

You are more relaxed about it than I am.

The theoretical idea that an N may have less control over their actions and be less morally culpable than I previously thought unfortunately gives zero comfort for the pain and damage that has been done to us. It might denote a bit of resignation over the person ever changing but it doesn't indicate any relaxation I'm afraid.

mud

[seastorm]

Dear Mudpuppy,

Thank goodness your son is in a place where he can get the right help. The system has to be watched carefully and I am sure you will do this. At this point I think having peace of mind is a big milestone for someone with mental illness. And from there following their bliss.
Not many parents get on board for really understanding and supporting their children through this. Your son is lucky to have you.

As for the N. They sure strike deep and hard.I wish they did not have such power to hurt good people. No matter how strong one is if a shark gets ya, it is going to be a difficult recovery. Understanding intellectually helps but it is not the golden bullet that cures the pain.
I hear you. I am so sorry you got tangled up with an N. I am also glad that you are here as many times your voice, heart and wisdom have helped me a lot.

Just because you don't use dramatic language does not mean that you haven't been mauled. I should not make the assumption that I have been hurt more than anyone else here.

Sea storm

[mudpuppy]

I should not make the assumption that I have been hurt more than anyone else here.

seastorm,
I didn't get the impression that was your assumption but it is an understandable one that we all sometimes make I think. When we're in the middle of the storm the pain we feel is often all we can handle and everything else seems smaller.
Objectively though I know many people here have suffered far more than me.
A child abused in any way by a parent and even a person betrayed by a spouse has no doubt endured more than me. I have a sibling who has done me a great deal of damage but who was never in the same position of supreme trust as a parent or spouse.

mud

[Meh]

Hi Seastorm,

My older brother, who is my only sibling has some undefined thing. He has been an alcoholic for years and has had drug problems in the past. At this point in his life it's impossible for me to tell if his current problems come from the substance abuse or family disfunction/Nar-mother. At one point some health care professional said he might be bipolar but that was never followed up with. It's a difficult diagnosis to make. Today he emailed me and was telling me that he thinks he is now agoraphobic. Anyways, he has so many compounding problems. Since I have my own quirks I feel like I have to avoid him or else I think I will get worse myself.

For many years I have had tremendous sadness about my brother.

I don't really have any solutions to offer for you. I only know that it's difficult to witness a sibling go through that.

[seastorm]

Helen and Mudpuppy,

Thanks for coming forward with your understanding and personal experience. It helps so much to not feel alone.

I called Mental Health today to see if there is a support/educational group for relatives and friends of people with a Mental illness but there is not. Seems like it would be a good idea.

She sees me as the enemy now and wants me to apologize but I cant. She has no idea what her rages are like. It is all my fault.

Sea

[Twoapenny]

Sea,

I was talking to my T yesterday and something she said clicked with me.  We were talking about my mum (for a change!) and I asked her if she thought my mum deliberately set out to hurt and undermine me.  Her answer was that when people have problems - whether they are caused by abuse, mental illness, drugs, gambling, whatever - their aim is to fill that gap and plug up that need regardless of anything else that's going on - they'll do it however much damage it causes them or those around them.  So an alcoholic will have a drink even though their wife has said she'll leave if they keep doing it, a gambler will take the money for groceries and put it on a horse and, in the case of my mum, her need to be the centre of attention and to have all eyes focused on her meant she told me stuff when I was young that kept me totally at her beck and call, regardless of how that stuff made me feel or what sort of effect it had on me.

I don't know if that helps you at all in relation to your sister, but for me thinking of myself as just being in the wrong place at the wrong time helps me - rather than thinking it's something I did, something I deserved or something that was somehow my responsibility.  It makes it more objective and less personal and I find that easier.

Anyway, I'm not sure if that makes any sense - it's quite early here    But thought I would post it in case it helped a little

[sKePTiKal]

Dear Sea,

without trying to peg your sister into a explanatory diagnosis, I did see something that I recognized in myself at the early stages of the unravelling of my denial/suppression/unconscious avoiding and the healing process. It's a thing I call "misery loves company"... and it's something that sibs learn in dysfunctional families...

if things are really outrageous - bordering on out of control (and sometimes simple life change can trigger this) - an emotional need for stability, safety, or recognition of self develops. In lots of dysfunctional families the kids' needs aren't even recognized, much less paid attention to. But instead of asking for help problem-solving, or support... the dysfunctional route of this misery pattern is to replay all the events (usually embroidered with lots of blame, attempts at mind-reading or imputing impossible to know motives) and of course, intense anger. The idea applied to sibs... is that if both sibs are on the same page - there is safety in numbers. I learned this dysfunction from my mother; saw it played out daily in a horrible work situation among the subordinates and still am on the receiving end of this - and the other things people resort to having grown up "without parents" - from my brother. It's a dysfunctional way to shunt off dealing with and owning emotions, at the core, I think. And a way to relieve the emotional "pressure" or need that builds up. Right now, my brother is on the verge of discovering his own version of my Twiggy-story and so he's almost like a different person each time I talk to him. Don't know if he'll ever get brave enough to dive into his story or not; I'm not pushing. But I do protect myself and also verbally draw lines with him when he's being unreasonable, wacked, or attacking me for no reason.

I do still find myself reaching for this "game" from time to time - but less so now. I know it doesn't satisfy my real need and when I catch myself doing it, I give myself enough "time out" to find the words to say what I really need. Having been on both sides of this - victim and perpetrator - I know how unpleasant being the target & dumping ground can be. My mom still does this on a regular basis to me and I am learning to be on guard - or detached enough - that I don't get hooked into playing the game, nor take it personally when she turns to attack me for not playing it. In my mom's reality, not playing her game equals not caring, not being loyal, not standing up for her. And on those occasions where I can stay in my own detached space... and actually suggest steps that she could take to be responsible for her own emotions and make changes externally that will satisfy her needs... that's when I piss her off the most. My mom has a lot of traits of a BPD patient; I had a lot of "learned behavior" that could be classified that way, too - but I've been able to change that and "grow out" of it. It wasn't the real me, at all - but it sure explained why I distrusted and hated myself! And it was quite "normal" for me to attempt to throw that off (it's like a hair shirt that bites, too) onto all the people around me... it was how I learned to ask for help. Didn't get me any of course!! 

Now that your sister is a little calmer, it might be a good time to reaffirm your caring for her and if she accepts that, then perhaps try to explain why you can't let her dump anger/rage on you... but be careful with the second piece! You might allow more time to go by before attempting the second part. It could re-trigger her.

Hope this gives you your own insights into what might be going on!  There is possibility for hope that she'll work it out on her own, too.

[Gaining Strength]

f things are really outrageous - bordering on out of control (and sometimes simple life change can trigger this) - an emotional need for stability, safety, or recognition of self develops. In lots of dysfunctional families the kids' needs aren't even recognized, much less paid attention to. But instead of asking for help problem-solving, or support... the dysfunctional route of this misery pattern is to replay all the events (usually embroidered with lots of blame, attempts at mind-reading or imputing impossible to know motives) and of course, intense anger. The idea applied to sibs... is that if both sibs are on the same page - there is safety in numbers. I learned this dysfunction from my mother; saw it played out daily in a horrible work situation among the subordinates and still am on the receiving end of this - and the other things people resort to having grown up "without parents" - from my brother. It's a dysfunctional way to shunt off dealing with and owning emotions, at the core, I think. And a way to relieve the emotional "pressure" or need that builds up. Right now, my brother is on the verge of discovering his own version of my Twiggy-story and so he's almost like a different person each time I talk to him. Don't know if he'll ever get brave enough to dive into his story or not; I'm not pushing. But I do protect myself and also verbally draw lines with him when he's being unreasonable, wacked, or attacking me for no reason.

This is so soothing to read.  It is my story and the story of so many.  The only phrase I would alter for me is "instead of asking for help problem-solving".  I did/do this but have not quite gotten it down.  I see how this phrase applies to so many who were trapped into families without loving, nurturing parents.  It is still sad to me that as a culture or society we tend to continue to punish humans raised in such pain rather than offer a helping hand.

[Portia]

GS and all

lots I can identify with here but I have a question GS,what do you mean when you say as a culture or society we tend to continue to punish humans raised in such pain ?

[seastorm]

PhoenixRising,

There is so much contained in your post and I would like to really understand what you are saying. My sister and I definately clung to each other to withstand the craziness of our family. In that way I can see that my trying to get healthy by going for therapy, seeing psychiatrist to manage PTSD, exercising, singing all that would scare her into thinking I would leave her behind. In some ways that IS happening. Replaying the Victim- Perpetrator dance along the way. There is lots of mindreading and imputing motives because of course, intuition was needed in the crazy situation because people blew up so you had to learn to read them so that you werent hurt by the falling shrapnel.

How do you see this in your work situation? Do you mean that you see the same poor communication and mindreading at work? I am just getting it that I grew up without much parenting and the neglect was kind of bizarre. Going into rages and attacking people I love is not unfamiliar to me but I have learned, at least,that I dont want to be that way and there are other ways to communicate and interpret other peoples behaviour. I had to learn these things at workshops and through reading. It took taking big risks personally to learn how I affected other people and vice versa.


I think you are right that a need for some kind of safety and a new recognition for self is shaking my sister up. It shakes me up too.
A lot of the time she can manage her life carefully and she will stay sort of mentally healthy. We have stood by each other through some aweful times. This feels different because I cant agree with her. She thinks I am hard and cruel and selfish not to  have empathy for her. She feels entitled to her feelings but I cant have empathy for her when she attacks me. Maybe I should, but I dont.  Like saying to her," I am sorry you find me so cold and unfeeling". It feels like a warped double blind.

My pattern in relationships has been to get involved with people who dominate me one way or another and to be in more of a listener mode. I am changing and it really bugs people that I have to let them go if there is not equal give and take. I think that is why I got involved with an N. There have been a series of Ns.

When you say that our culture punishes those raised in pain I agree wholeheartedly. I see that in the way society colludes with offenders, how teachers choose organization over empathy, how triggered and agitated most people are over the genuine, honest feelings  are those whose hearts have been wrenched open. I see it in people who would rather die than admit that their parents dd not love them or were incapable of loving them.
If by those who were raised in pain you mean people who are incarcerated, mentally ill, battered, living in poverty etc. I think the list pretty  much includes everyone these days. As a society we have things all wrong.

So you have opened lots of doors there with your reply. Clarify and expand on some of those things. I think I can learn a lot from this. Kids raised by parents incapable of parenting end up raising each other and that is not a good idea. Kids raising kids is a tragedy and in the end a nightmare. I haven't thought that much about it or been aware of it.

[sKePTiKal]

Kids raised by parents incapable of parenting end up raising each other and that is not a good idea.

Sounds to me, like you already know what I'm trying to say in my rambling style! I don't know how much more I can say - and still make sense. At least right now.

I'm just back from the Twilight Zone, with my brother... and once again, kicking myself for NOT being able to understand how he thinks, how his mind works... not seeing, once again, that I can't trust him because he truly lives in some Twilight Zone reality. But there are times, that he's able to convince me that he's living in the same reality the rest of us are... as if he's getting better... and then WHAM - back to the twilight zone.... it's like he's a different person, almost. I get suckered into trusting him - and then he blindsides me. Maybe I've never been able to trust him - and I just didn't know it. This blindside technique has been around for a long time... and it depends on my trusting him... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I'll be back Sea.