OCD

[Spirit]

Hello everyone,

For those who remember I am posting here after a while and I do feel guilty of suddenly disappearing from this MB which has given me some useful insight. So I decided that telling what is happening and sharing my experience is always nice hence todays post.

After seeing the catchment area counsellor about three months ago who dream analysed me, he referred me to the NHS psychotherapy unit where I had an assessment session. We talked about issues of emotional and physical neglecting mom, compliance, emotional abuse by self posessed narcissist dad, and some of the issues that have affected me since including bad therapy which I had earlier on which has worsened my situation and burried me with further guilt.

We agreed that I have developed since childhood obsessive compulsions and severe intrusive thoughts, for which the cause has still not been determined and the more I think of it the more I become perplexed as to how my compulsive behaviour ( mostly touching, praying, ticking ) which was plenty went un-noticed by such 'caring' parents.

The dampening side is.. I think I still am in partial denial, no not about my parents or their neglect or self absorved selfish motives, but about some of the 'habits' which I have developed on the way.. I still find it hard to believe that they are not my thoughts but intrusive thoughts. ( confused.. confused ) I am still very much on the learning curve and I am sure that there would be more surprises !! a humbling experience indeed

I know I cant push myself or simply comply.. but I feel that I have let myself down sometimes.. otehr times I feel angry towards the therapist thinking that she is the one causing all the trouble..

Whatever.. I think the assessment is leading me to believe that I do need psychodynamic therapy ( to see the cause of my OCD and depression and all that guilt ) but it will have to wait. I believe I need to address my OCD first to give me more self confidence. The therapist even suggest that OCD could be THE problem, but this is one area I am stil lnot convinced. To be fair I havent done much research on OCD as I felt it as only a symptom and there could be other disorderes associated with it.. but as of now I am concentrating on my OCD and the more I think of it I am becoming more and more aware of the time I spend FOR IT at MY expense . I have registerd with an OCD Messageboard.. just like this one and they look like a great bunch aswell  

Meanwhile I find chatting here give me courage to go to therapy and talk to the therapist and I am ever so glad that I found this place nd I am eveer s oglad that you took upon time to read some of my sorry experiences and frustration that I have gone through..luv you all and hopefully I will be posting more

Spirit

[wondering]

I am not a psychologist but your childhood sounds like mine.  Let me describe a few things and see if they are familiar to you.  

Your Father was emotionally abusive and possibly either physically abusive or used displays of violence to intimidate both you and your Mother.  

This behavior would have caused your Mother to become voiceless, withdrawn, and depressed.  In her condition she was unable to care for you because she was so terrified for herself.  When your Father was away she just wanted to be left alone.

It is likely that at a young age you ended up caring for your parents in numerous ways.  You "cared" for your Father by doing anything and everything you could think of to keep him from being set off including doing your best to avoid him.  Maybe you even thought all Fathers were like yours and tried to avoid other people's Fathers as well.    

You "cared" for your Mother by trying to be there for her or possibly even taking on the household responsibilities.  If you took on these tasks you hoped that if you did enough or were good enough that you might get some positive attention.  At some point you may or may not have given up on that idea because no matter what you did it was not only not appreciated but criticized.  

A child whose Father is emotionally explosive and whose Mother is withdrawn has no place where they are "safe" - nowhere they belong - and often NO ONE at all besides themselves.  

Even if they have siblings it is "every victim for themselves" as one of the best ways for a mother or sibling to avoid getting dumped on is to deflect it onto someone else - anyone else.  

Is it any wonder you are depressed?  How could you NOT be depressed?   Having been told it is always your fault when your parents are unhappy - and knowing that no matter what you did you never could make them happy - you were never good enough - how could you NOT feel guilty?

Realize that your parents probably wouldn't have noticed YOUR NEEDS no matter what happened because they were too self-absorbed trying to fill their own.  Nothing you could or CAN do about that - EVER.  

They are the way they are because of how their own parents treated them.  If they don't accept, become aware, or realize this they will NEVER get better.  They just won't.  And you CANNOT change that.

You, however, are aware that there is something wrong and are looking for ways to get better.  All of your "behaviors" are symptoms - ways you learned to survive and cope in a dangerous, hopeless situation.  

They don't serve you now and you will hopefully be able to release them.  Remember that you can only change yourself.  You CANNOT and SHOULD NOT even attempt to get the approval you've always wanted from your parents because THEY ARE NOT CAPABLE OF GIVING IT and THEY NEVER WILL BE.  

I am not a psychologist but I have lived it in my own immediate and extended family and seen it in so many other families and had relationships with so many people who have lived "our" history that I am absolutely certain of all I write here.  

One of the very best books I've ever read that explains this is "The Narcissistic Family".  Although written for psychologists it isn't full of pro-speak.  I highly recommend it to everyone who wants to understand people better.

One thing you must realize is that there is no such thing as PERFECT and you feel disappointed in yourself because you are still reaching for that goal which is IMPOSSIBLE.  There are NO perfect humans.  

Realize that you were born perfect love and do not have to DO anything to be "OK"  - you already ARE OK.  You just have to accept yourself and "BE" yourself.  Forgive and love yourself.  

Remember that in order to get better you must take total responsibility for yourself and let go of any blame, excuses, guilt, etc.  

You may find tapes useful to "reprogram" yourself and get rid of what you call "intrusive thoughts".  That is how I replaced the "critical voice of doom" with positive, uplifting thoughts.  

Wayne Dyer's "Ten Secrets for Inner Peace and Success" and "There's a Spiritual Solution to Every Problem" are both wonderful.

[Ellie]

Hi Spirit,
My H and kids tease me for some of my compulsions. They are not severe and can be funny and aggrevating enough, but they were taught and I cannot stop them:

I must check that I locked the door at night at least 3 times.

I must check that I shut the garage door by looking at it shut all the way down the street, to the point of not watching where I am going. If I can't remember if I looked back, I will come back home to check.

I must check that I turned off the stove at least 3 times after each use.

I must unplug the toaster after every use.

I must go back home after leaving the house if I think I may have forgotten to turn off the curling iron.

I must set the parking break everytime I stop the car whether it is running or not.

I must check that I locked the car door at least 3 times.

I must ask the kids if they have their lunch, books, jacket everyday 4 or 5 times.

Why? I was punished severely so many times for forgetting things like those listed above. I am 45 and have been away from home since 17 but I cannot get the fear of being in trouble out of my head.

These are not self-dabilitating issues and I can live with them, but I CANNOT live without them.

Wondering,
You just described my childhood to a T. A reminder of why I am here.
Thank you for sharing.

Spirit,
Please keep posting. Sharing your emotions help me tremendously.

[flower]

I have registerd with an OCD Messageboard.. just like this one and they look like a great bunch aswell  

I've read that 1 in 40 have OCD. My immediate family members all have symptoms.  I don't know the cause but I think it is bio/learned. I'm reading the book, "Freedom from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - A Personalized Recovery Program for Living with Uncertainity"  by Jonathan Grayson, PhD.  Director, Anxiety and Agoraphobia Treatment Center. I don't agree with everything he says but so far I am fascinated at his discussion of the interplay of biology and learned behavior and also anxiety and stress as triggers of OCD.  I found the book at the public library.

And I will not check this message again for mistakes!  

Best Wishes

[Ellie]

Oh Flower,

And I will not check this message again for mistakes!  

That was so funny to me! I am always checking, rechecking, then submit, then actually hit myself because it still has errors!

I exist much better in life with spell checker!

Speaking of, I am talking to my son't teacher to see if he needs evaluation for dysgraphia - a writing disorder that causes great problems in school for many reasons. Last night he was supposed to re-write a story that was 4 pages (lines were skipped for legibility) and he cried. He is 10 and can't grasp the whole notion of writing. He's in 4th grade now and they require much more writing and he just cannot get it done. His spelling is not existent. He doesn't even want to re-read because sometimes he doesn't know what he wrote. This is a very tough topic for me - the anal one who cannot stand mistakes! But I'm being very calm and supportive now - we just ignored it all until this year.

Gonna be a toughie!

[Anonymous]

After seeing the catchment area counsellor about three months ago who dream analysed me, he referred me to the NHS psychotherapy unit where I had an assessment session.

Hi Spirit,

Wow, dream analysis. That sounds really interesting. Did you get any useful information from that?

We agreed that I have developed since childhood obsessive compulsions and severe intrusive thoughts, for which the cause has still not been determined and the more I think of it the more I become perplexed as to how my compulsive behaviour ( mostly touching, praying, ticking ) which was plenty went un-noticed by such 'caring' parents.

My little niece has a history of various nervous tics that her parents and grandparents dismiss as "allergies." Parents easily go into denial about this stuff.

The dampening side is.. I think I still am in partial denial, no not about my parents or their neglect or self absorved selfish motives, but about some of the 'habits' which I have developed on the way.. I still find it hard to believe that they are not my thoughts but intrusive thoughts. ( confused.. confused ) I am still very much on the learning curve and I am sure that there would be more surprises !! a humbling experience indeed

An intrusive thought is still your thought. It's called intrusive because it's not helpful to you and possibly an "old tape" internalized from your parents.

other times I feel angry towards the therapist thinking that she is the one causing all the trouble..

Believe it or not, Spirit, this is a positive sign in therapy! Can you tell the therapist about this feeling?


Keep posting!

bunny

[nassim]

Spirit,

Hey guy,

Good to see you back. It's been a while and I'm glad you came back to give us all an update.

Nassim

[wondering]

Why? I was punished severely so many times for forgetting things like those listed above. I am 45 and have been away from home since 17 but I cannot get the fear of being in trouble out of my head.

You know the reason for your compulsions.  Who wouldn't try to avoid severe punishment?  Anyone trying to be perfect is going to check things over and over.

Try acknowledging the thoughts and releasing them.  At first you may still act on them too.  See if you can consciously DECIDE to act on them, then later decide NOT to always act on them until you can get to the point where you can acknowledge the thought and just let it go.  

These are not self-dabilitating issues and I can live with them, but I CANNOT live without them.  

You are TELLING yourself you CANNOT live without them so you can't.  When you get to the point where you can tell yourself you CAN live without them you will.  

Our thoughts and words are things that create our reality.  Changing our words and then our thoughts, we can change our reality.

P.S.  I hope your family's teasing is gentle and not hurtful.  If these behaviors help you feel better accepting yourself and them just the way you are is healthy.  You can change them later if you wish.

[bunny]

Our thoughts and words are things that create our reality.  Changing our words and then our thoughts, we can change our reality.

I think this is true in many cases. And it's true that repeating some "fact" about ourselves only reinforces it. However I don't believe our thoughts/words will change certain realities. OCD is extremely complicated and involves the nervous system. I believe therapy (including behavior therapy which is 'changing the reality') and medications would help it more than anything.

In my case, irritability is lessened by anti-depressants. When I was off them, no amount of "changing my thoughts" improved the irritability. It seemed organic. And the meds diminishing it by magnitudes appeared to confirm this. You may say I believe the meds help, therefore I "made this reality" happen (placebo effect) and I can't disprove it. But my personal belief is that the chemicals in the meds helped me.

bunny

[flower]

On OCD.... It is amazing how science has shown how the brain "heats up" in those with OCD. Sometimes a person needs a little chemical assist to quiet down the brain so that they can learn how to stop responding to learned obsessive cues.

Speaking of, I am talking to my son't teacher to see if he needs evaluation for dysgraphia - a writing disorder that causes great problems in school for many reasons. Last night he was supposed to re-write a story that was 4 pages (lines were skipped for legibility) and he cried. He is 10 and can't grasp the whole notion of writing. He's in 4th grade now and they require much more writing and he just cannot get it done. His spelling is not existent. He doesn't even want to re-read because sometimes he doesn't know what he wrote. This is a very tough topic for me - the anal one who cannot stand mistakes! But I'm being very calm and supportive now - we just ignored it all until this year.

Gonna be a toughie!

Hi Ellie,
  It seems all of us are wired in different ways.

I'd like to say a little of my experience with my son:

I believe each child probably has some strengths in other areas that can be used to support his/her challenges. My son has had a horrible time wanting to use his hands for extended writing. He does most writing on the computer. My son and I used to write stories together taking turns on the computer. We picked a subject that is his special interest for motivation.

My son had horrible resistance to "seat work" as they call it. He just didn't want to do it. Then we found out about vision therapy. It helped my son quite a bit in different areas. But  isn't a cure. Yet, he has had less resistance to using his hands for many tasks. But he still prefers writing on the computer. His eyes weren't focusing well at all. He couldn't keep his eyes on anything for very long. He had trouble with hand eye coordination.l The therapy took just about 5 minutes a day of exercises and a trip to the vision therapist once a week. My son had six months of the therapy. The therapists do testing to see if the child actually could benefit from therapy.

Anyway, might not be for everyone. But here is a link to my son's
doctor's website that explains vision therapy:

http://www.lifetimeeyecare.net/therapy.html

[Ellie]

These are not self-dabilitating issues and I can live with them, but I CANNOT live without them.

Hi Wondering,
I said the above quote because I cannot live with the unrest, uneasiness, self-doubt that has engrained in me for so many years. I guess I know I can let it all go, I have to choose and work to not obsess. But I don't feel comfortable and the discomfort doesn't seem worth it.

After so many years of being second-guessed, repeatedly asked and accused, I live with myself better by checking and rechecking.

Plus I comfirm my own doubts sometimes by deciding not to check myself and sure enough, I've screwed up.

Flower,
Thank you for the vision therapy information. I have taken him to the eye doctor since he was 5 and there are no apparent vision problems. He has had problems with handwriting since he started learning it at age 3-4. He has never been able to keep the letters in the lines or transfer what he reads on a sheet to his writing sheet. He presses too hard with his pencil if he tries to write neatly and hurts his hand. This has been an issue since 4. He's got a very patient and experienced teacher. I hope he is just slow at development and will progress this year as he finds writing more interesting. But I'm aware now that there could be a problem and can keep watch over it.

He was born 15 days early and was only 6lb. 8oz. and 17" long. He was very tiny and had to wear premy clothes but the doctor said he was fully developed and should have no growth or development problems. He is only 53" at age 10 and 62 lbs. He's a tiny thing and yet so tough. Being the youngest of 3 he has learned to be tough and now plays football, lacrosse and basketball with the toughest players. He can take hits by the big guys and can take out his 5 + ft. 100 lb. sister in one tackle. I've always thought he was just my jock and wasn't interested in school, but now that he is so emotional about not being able to get it right or neat like his classmates, I'm starting to think it may be a disorder. As far as seat work, concentration, etc. he is good at working with his hands and working with small objects like the tiny building blocks. He doesn't have any apparent learning disorders. We've been educated a lot in this as my daughter has adhd.

Writing is so natural to most people that is is very strange to watch someone who struggles to get their letters on a page. He was writing his name on a paper tonight and very slowly shaped each letter like he was writing in gold or more like a preschooler. He uses the computer every day, has had instruction since kindergarten (I was the computer teacher at school) and still struggles to type. He can't seem to find the letters with any speed and gets frustrated so fast. My other 2 were typing more fluently at 10 and had much less keyboard time than hs has had.

Parenting - a gift, reward, challenge, struggle.

[wondering]

Hi Ellie,

I guess I know I can let it all go, I have to choose and work to not obsess. But I don't feel comfortable and the discomfort doesn't seem worth it.

Perhaps if you just accept it as normal for you eventually it will either fade away or just become a non-issue.  Since whatever we focus on increases and whatever we ignore decreases I find focusing on what I desire works.  

There is a catchy saying that goes "whatever you resist, persists" so I just try to accept myself as I am today and focus on where I'm going.

[flower]

Flower,
Thank you for the vision therapy information. I have taken him to the eye doctor since he was 5 and there are no apparent vision problems. He has had problems with handwriting since he started learning it at age 3-4. He has never been able to keep the letters in the lines or transfer what he reads on a sheet to his writing sheet. He presses too hard with his pencil if he tries to write neatly and hurts his hand. This has been an issue since 4. He's got a very patient and experienced teacher. I hope he is just slow at development and will progress this year as he finds writing more interesting. But I'm aware now that there could be a problem and can keep watch over it.

Hi Ellie,
That's great there are no problems with your son's eyes. It sounds like your son's challenges are just with writing. That is the way it is with kids, each is unique. Your son sounds like a neat kid and very athletic...cool.

Because my son had so much trouble relating to the environment around him, I pursued all kinds of things to help him. My son saw a specialist - a developmental optometrist. Although my son had those problems I mentioned, I did find out that he can see a picture flashing in 1/100th of a second  that most people can only see down to 1/10th of a second. We indeed come with our own unique wiring. My son is on the autistic spectrum of disorders.

[findingme]

Perhaps if you just accept it as normal for you eventually it will either fade away or just become a non-issue.  

I have a few OCD tendencies as well.  For me, I can't just ignore it, or accept is as normal, b/c the intrusive thoughts keep running around like a hamster wheel.  BUT, what I am trying to do is replace the thoughts.  When they start running around my head, I think of some kind, positive mantra, or picture myself in another situation to try to replace the thoughts.  Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't...  But I know that I am unable to "just resist" or just ignore them.  That's just me.  Don't know about others.  fm

[Anonymous]

Thanks everyone for your replies

Wondering,

you very neatly summed up most of my childhood experiences.. reading it was like reliving it, and each time I go through that re-living process I come across new insights, memories that are sad and sometimes I cry over it.
The only difference between the average emotionaly abusive fathers and mine is that my father is complex ( I use the word advisedly ) He is never physically abusive, more on the winging type. He kind of plays multiple roles and contradicts himself so often it is impossible to understand what he expects, except simply to accept whatever he wants at the moment and every moment. For example he would be the 'evil mom' nd the next moment play the 'saviour dad' and put all the blame for it on my mom who has no clue what happened. The next day he would play the 'nursing mom' and give my mom credit for what she didnt do. My family simply putting it was a ..'one man family' starring my dad,co starring my dad, directed by my dad, edited cinamatographed by my dad.. I was just the audience and he needed me desparately I guess he will have to watch his own shows from now on !!

Ellie,
wow, so brave of you to come out with it all. Wish I could have the same guts !

Flower,
My dad I htink has some pure obsessions for sure. He is obsessed with the idea that he is sick and might die and that there is something wrong with me or that something might happen to me ! He keeps staring at me at night and keeps checking that I sleep well, he checks that my blanket are in place, that the fan is running at the right speed etc and sometimes cant sleep himself..disturbing thoughts he would sometimes claim !.. and no this is not when I was a kid.. but when I was in my twenties

it could verywell be bio/learnt. I think I will do more reading on this subject

Bunny,
The dream analysis was very helpful. The counsellor made me pay more attention to my dreams and thats only when I realised that I had a dream vision recently during my former counselling session about 3 years ago. I think it was a proof that the counselling then was a failure as there were striking contrasts in it. This time the counsellor is thinking more in terms of OCD and behaviour therapy rather than psychoanalytic psychotherapy cos of that.

After the session with him I got interested in the subject and started reading about the subject, especially Jungian analysis.

In general my dreams have a striking conflict, a strive for wholeness.. and something surprising always blocking it. I am now more aware that wholeness is more about integrating rather than killing off which I might have earlier on be trying to do.

About parents going on denial about OCD, my mom has sometimes pointed out to my dad that I was not ok, and no not out of care for me, but cos of fear that I might be crazy and that I might hurt her ( I write this with real bitterness for her) and my dad? he is full of guilt he hides it because he feels insecure about it for himself i think.

Tell the therapist that I feel bitter about my ex-counsellor ?  

Thinking on those lines I did do one thing which would look so insignificant but was a milestone for me. I managed to utter the word 'shadow' 'dream analysis' to a therapist ! I usually think that I am stupid and hence my analysis, views, feelings are insignificant and the therapist are powerful and know everything especially about subjects related to therapy.. and for me to use a Jungian word like 'shadow' that too face to face with a therapist !!!!.. I felt the world would swallow me but thankfully she didnt spit on me.. infact she took it well    

who knows.. one day I might tell her or atleast hint in more clear terms that I didnt like my pervious counsellor

nassim,
good to see you too   I hope you are recovering well !