Out of the FOG

[Hopalong]

This probably belongs on the What Helps? thread but it's sooooo good I didn't want anybody to miss it:

http://www.outofthefog.net/CommonNonBehaviors.html

love,
Hops

[seastorm]

Hi Hops,

Thanks for the great site. I spent two hours last night pouring over the information on personality disorders. I was struck by how living with someone who has a personality disorder can predict very accurately what will happen to that person. They will be destroyed. Maybe not completely but just enough so that they will probably end up with another personality disordered person because their self esteem has been crushed.

There is so much that is helpful there. The descriptions of behaviour of the personality disordered is so predictable. They do not learn from experience and there is nothing you can do. Except save yourself. I think the terms such as circular arguing, hoovering,gaslighting etc make very clear the strategies that are used to drive a reasonable person to the brink. They also talk about what to do in these situations.  Usually this adds up to leaving quietly and not engaging.

Thanks,

Seastorm

[ann3]

Thank you Hops.  Wonderful info.  I really found myself among the numerous descriptions.  Really liked the complex ptsd info.  And, Congrats on decluttering.

[Hopalong]

Very sage summary, Seastorm...thank you for this:

Usually this adds up to leaving quietly and not engaging.

Sometimes I just "wordy" it to death, when what you wrote is really--health. That's it.

Hi Ann,
So glad you were helped by this link.
I'm almost afraid to study it in greater depth as it's brutal truth, but it is good to see such clarity written out...

hugs
Hops

[SilverLining]

I just stumbled across this great site and was about to post a link, but Hops beat me to it...  

I like the descriptions of PD behavior from the POV of  non PD's who have to deal with it.   Histrionic Personality Disorder sure fits my mother..   Lately I've been wondering if my father wasn't driven into his semi-autistic state by dealing with my mother.  Or maybe they each reinforced the negative personality tendencies of the other.   

[Ales2]

this is brilliant Hops - thanks so much for posting it. Very helpful. Its already bookmarked!

Now if only I could find rhythm, where in the morning I could get myself into a consistently postive, productive and assertive mindset, get through my workload and stay productive and then have some quiet time before bed to reflect on what worked and what didn't at the end of the day. I need real help in this area!

[Ales2]

thanks again for the post hops. as i was asking for an answer to deal with and heal my issues so I can be more productive in my life - i kind of a had an epiphany that derailed most of the rest of the day - but in a good way. i was journaling for about 3 hours when it came to me that a mantra i had adopted a while back was coming into clearer focus and things clicked for me.  I was able to write out several pages of answers both for public and private use that gave me closure on  my relationship with my N mother and myself (i.e what I call my sacred self - the part of me that only I and a very few other select people VESMB people, T and 2-3 super trustowrthy friends). Getting that closure doesnt actually come from the words, it was honetly a FEELING that I had, the words just expressed that. As I was feeling the closure, I could reframe myself into a new place . And, standing in the new place, allows me to feel adn be different, which is what I was longing for. Being different as it turns out is just me at a higher level of understanding and it  feels good. When in the "higher" plane, it feels very much like anything I've wanted, but have been unable to get in my life before suddenly seems accessible.

I don't know if this is realistic of the delusion of a depressed mind.... I'm being sarcastic. I hope its going to stick with me!

[sKePTiKal]

Enter the person with the personality disorder and you sometimes have the recipe for a never ending circular discussion. That is because the person with a personality disorder does not always able to see the same reality that you see. To a person with a personality disorder, the way they feel dictates to them what the facts are. So to them if they feel betrayed then you are a betrayer. If they feel loved then you are loving. If they feel afraid then you are dangerous. If their feelings match up to your reality, that's great! You will be wonderfully validated, incredibly appreciated and deeply and sincerely loved. However, when their feelings do not line up with yours, then it is going to be a long night.

Jeez, if I'd known that my FOO based their definition of facts on feelings - a LOONNG TIME AGO - that would've been really helpful. It sure explains why I felt such strong cognitive dissonance all the time...

Nice website, Hops. I like the presentation style a lot - it's very accessible.

[Guest]

Oh yes: the way they feel dictates to them what the facts are
of course, numerous examples. Latest example is a bit weak, but it made me feel sick earlier this year:

So: I helped another 'helper' do a bit of DIY. We both thought the DIY was completely the wrong thing to do, but the Sick Person wanted it done, and I wanted to help the other helper and get out of SP's way. The job is done, I go back to where SP is and SP runs towards me with arms outstretched, saying "Hug hug!". I sort of freeze in the huggyness and say "why???" and SP says...........

"because you've helped me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Barf.
And that's my thanks?
Barf!

[SilverLining]

Enter the person with the personality disorder and you sometimes have the recipe for a never ending circular discussion. That is because the person with a personality disorder does not always able to see the same reality that you see. To a person with a personality disorder, the way they feel dictates to them what the facts are. So to them if they feel betrayed then you are a betrayer. If they feel loved then you are loving. If they feel afraid then you are dangerous. If their feelings match up to your reality, that's great! You will be wonderfully validated, incredibly appreciated and deeply and sincerely loved. However, when their feelings do not line up with yours, then it is going to be a long night.

Jeez, if I'd known that my FOO based their definition of facts on feelings - a LOONNG TIME AGO - that would've been really helpful. It sure explains why I felt such strong cognitive dissonance all the time...

Wow that sure does explain a lot.   In my FOO it's been especially obvious with my mother over the past year.   A few months ago, she was a raving and ranting lunatic calling other people "persecutors" and talking about conspiracies against her.  Now she's calmed down and all of a sudden is acting loving and caring (at least by her standards).  No wonder I've always felt slightly nauseated when the word "love" came up in my FOO.   The gut knew what the intellect hadn't figured out.  

[SilverLining]

Enter the person with the personality disorder and you sometimes have the recipe for a never ending circular discussion. That is because the person with a personality disorder does not always able to see the same reality that you see. To a person with a personality disorder, the way they feel dictates to them what the facts are. So to them if they feel betrayed then you are a betrayer. If they feel loved then you are loving. If they feel afraid then you are dangerous. If their feelings match up to your reality, that's great! You will be wonderfully validated, incredibly appreciated and deeply and sincerely loved. However, when their feelings do not line up with yours, then it is going to be a long night.

Thinking more about this quote, I had something of a revelation today.  Say there is only one person in an FOO system with a PD and the rest are relatively healthy.  Then it should be possible for the non-PD's to compare notes and come to some sort of agreement on what is going on.  The problem member can be understood and possibly dealt by the others as a group.  

But when there is more than one member with personality problems, then we have a whole new layer of complication.  Maybe the PD members play off each other and mutually reinforce each others interpretations of the "facts" based on their own distorted processes.  This happens so long as they are in mutually supportive mood phases.  But since each is cycling back and forth based on their own internal rhythm,  they phase in and out of agreement with each other.  Then the overall understanding  of the family  "reality" is continuously chaotic and distorted.  

This is what I have been experiencing in my FOO for nearly 50 years, but especially so over the last year.  Both my brother and my sister approached me in recent months to discuss the behavior of my mother.  For awhile it seemed we might be having rational adult discussions of the situation.  But then something happens overnight, the mood shifts, and I am demoted from adult confidante to the evil older sibling who stole a twinkie from them at age 7.  All rational discussion of the current situation goes out the window.  And there has never been any possibility of real dialogue with my borderline autistic father.  

So up and down and back and forth it goes.  Sometimes my mother, sister, and brother are in sync, and my father is made out to be a sadistic abuser responsible for all their problems.  Then the mood shifts and I get the blame, as the evil older sibling.  They they turn on each other.  Then sometimes I am validated and appreciated for the positive protective "good" oldest child things I supposedly did.  I am left in a constant state of bafflement, trying to figure out how to deal with these people.    

No wonder I have always dreamed of escape to a tropical desert isle   But on the positive side maybe I am finally getting a feel for what is really going on here..  

What do you think Phoenix?  Does this help explain what is going on in FOO situations such as ours?  

[sKePTiKal]

Yes, SL... those moments when your family interactions seem to be opening up into the "rational" universe again... those experiences for me, have always been a combination of what the website calls "intermittent reinforcement" (sort of a pretend validation) and "hoovering"... getting sucked back into "playing the game; reliving the old scripts" again. But, I would suggest that ordinary personality (not necessarily PD) also plays a part in this. Some people, normally, avoid conflict for instance... anyway they can... and it's not a PD symptom. And, yeah -- sibling rivalry and those old scripts are going to rear their childish heads, for sure...

it can be a minefield, for me. Part of me wants to believe that I'll be the beneficiary of some cosmic miracle... and wants to believe that my family has changed. Desperately wants to believe this. Stubbornly. To the point of my own denial, that in 40 years... they're still the same. Mom and Bro. That may also be a bias of judgement... in the other direction...

so what I've come to realize is that I've got to have an inner boundary between evidence and observation of their behavior that I can verify and between my old hopeful wish and belief that miracles can happen. Because that believing part of me is giddily, deliriously, oblivious to the evidence... that for 40 years, every time I've trusted in those moments of pretend validation... it's always turned out badly for me. I can't stop being who I am, any more than they can stop creating the same old pathetic, blaming, catastrophic situations with no-win circular arguments... but I sure can control how I behave in what I know for a fact, is a dangerous situation for me. Keep my distance, watch my back... and while trusting in God, I'm still gonna tie my camel!!

I'm allowed and that doesn't make me a bad person.

[SilverLining]

Yes, SL... those moments when your family interactions seem to be opening up into the "rational" universe again... those experiences for me, have always been a combination of what the website calls "intermittent reinforcement" (sort of a pretend validation) and "hoovering"... getting sucked back into "playing the game; reliving the old scripts" again. But, I would suggest that ordinary personality (not necessarily PD) also plays a part in this. Some people, normally, avoid conflict for instance... anyway they can... and it's not a PD symptom. And, yeah -- sibling rivalry and those old scripts are going to rear their childish heads, for sure...

For sure.  We end up with a complex mix of PD, ordinary avoidance of conflict, stress from dealing with the PD, and so on.  It's been a minefield for me as well.  The openings into rational objective interaction never last for long.  

Some time ago I posted a list of things that were not provided in my FOO, such as validation,  and positive emotional support.  Here's another addition to the list:  A shared sense of reality based on something other than the fluctuating personality states of the family members.    

[sKePTiKal]

A shared sense of reality based on something other than the fluctuating personality states of the parents.

OH... I have to say... I share this void with you, SL. I think it's why a.) I don't believe there is such a thing as "security" and b.) I trust my own perception more than many other things... up to the point, where I "know I don't know".

It's the stuff I don't know, that I don't know... that always bites! But at least, I know that's part of reality... unlike my family.

[SilverLining]

I don't believe there is such a thing as "security" and b.) I trust my own perception more than many other things... up to the point, where I "know I don't know".

It's the stuff I don't know, that I don't know... that always bites! But at least, I know that's part of reality... unlike my family.

Now there's a reality I can affirm and share...    

Thinking back on my FOO experiences, I realize there was never any discussion of social reality which might be used to figure out (with any objective validity) what was going on.  The parents from the beginning  and then later the siblings pretty much just expressed whatever their mood of the day dictated and expected others to respond.   Sometimes the mood made the world a dark place populated by evil people.  So this "reality" was imposed on the other family members for awhile.  Then something positive happened and the reality shifted to match.  It was all based on personal feelings without discipline or rational insight.  

Add in the process of false/embellished memory and it really gets weird.  When they shift back and forth, they seem to instantly create a history of "facts" to support the current state of mind.  The bad mood of the day is justified by a remembered history of supposedly factual abuses by others.  When the mood changes the memories change also.  A lot of these facts are obviously embellished and I believe many are outright delusional.  But woe to anybody who dares to question their current state of reality.  Input from others is not necessary to affirm their beliefs and it is definitely not appreciated.      

Another thing I never heard in my FOO was an apology.  Dissociation means never having to say you're sorry...