Author Topic: Terrible..  (Read 3304 times)

sfalken

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Terrible..
« on: August 11, 2010, 04:07:56 PM »
I'm loosing it. Short refresher: in March, my NM mother sent a nastygram to my wife and I, and we responded with an email basically saying "how would that make you feel" <hint hint, apologize>. That resulted in months of drama from my parents, being blocked from calls and text messaging to my mother, long dramatic emails, cut off, and our names being smeared to everyone that they knew, who knew us. Theyve befriended my ex, and I have told them that I am uncomfortable with that, and I want them to stay OUT of my divorce business. They have not changed. I've extended a hand to them many times saying that all we wanted originally was an apology, but that at this point, my father cant just treat us the way he has, and walk away like he did nothing wrong. Every time I've been met with more nastiness, smart comments, silence, and in the mean time, they havent seen the children, as a result of all of this. (with their nature I am not letting them see them alone, and frankly, if they want a relationship with them, they have to make it right with my wife and I.

Fast forward to today. On Sunday night, I received a letter from my father, who protects the NM. Frankly I think she wrote the note, and he added his angry comments later and sent it to me. In the note, he makes it seem as though I am threatening them, and being immature. As if I've done some kind of horrific thing, and its so convincing that even I start to feel confused reading it. They make what I perceive to be a legal threat, as well. And threaten to poison my children verbally when they start visiting them at their mother's, or after they die with a note. He/they turn it all around and make it like I am the sick person, and like I am the one crossing boundaries. No wonder they are so convincing to others.

I feel so low reading this. My father makes it like I am the worst person who ever lived. Everything is my fault... ugh... but I thought, maybe I could post it here and commiserate a bit, if someone else would be willing to look at it too. Here goes:

From my father:

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I understand that you want to hear from me. You may be sorry, for I will not tell you what you want to hear. I will tell you what is right. I understand that you think that I avoid confrontation with you. You mistake long suffering patients, and mistake it with weakness. For you this is in a long list of your mistakes. Of course whenever you are ready! Let us be adults!

Sure I could give you the apology that you feel you sadly deserve. However, this time it wouldn’t help since we have done nothing wrong and I know that in another year, you’d be having a fit about something else. All I hear is crying for some little reason or another. You use the only tool that you have against us, our wonderful grandchildren. Really though the ones that you are really hurting are your own children! We have never done anything but love them. What about <wife>? We love her and respect her. We have grown so fond of her family. We look forward to seeing <mother in law> and <Father in law>. We like them so very much.

It is too hard <sfalken>. It is too hard to be constantly hurt by you. You may get the idea that I have had enough of your childish behavior and you are right! I blame you for ALL that has happened and gone wrong. I can’t let you continue to hurt me and your mother. I know that you don’t like boundaries. Most children don’t but it must be done. I never put any boundaries on you when you were a child. You never learned to respect your parents. I don’t care if you are 36 or 50. I am still your dad. I did the very best that I could by you and this is what I get. Well, NO MORE You can’t tell us who to talk to or have relationships with.

If it does not please you, than do something about this situation. It is your choice. If you don’t want us to talk to <ex-wife>, stop this now. Your mother and I show respect to <ex-wife> because she is the mother of two of our three grandchildren. She has extended a hand of friendship towards us, in the past and if you continue to keep the kids from us, we will be forced to open that door. WE will not hesitate to have a relationship with her, in order to see <daughter> and <son>. It is your choice, <sfalken>. Either stop this and let us see the kids or realize that you forced us into <ex-wife>’s life. It will be better to see two of my grandchildren than none. I am sure as they grow up they will tell their little sister about the grandpa and grandma that loved her and was kept out of her life by YOU. We love all three of those children with all of hearts. We want <daughter> to know us but you continue these immature behaviors and threats.

Is there anything that we could do that would ever make you happy? WE have tried for 36 years and failed. Is it our goal to make you happy? Not anymore! My patients are gone. WE did you a dis-service all of these years. WE let you have your way because we wanted you to be happy. But I can now see that we were wrong. There is a certain level of maturity that we expect from you, you’re 36 years old. Time to start acting like it. If your mom wants to apologize for something that she didn’t do, then that is her choice, but it is her choice to make. If that’s all it really took <sfalken>, an apology, I would have done it long ago. But I know that it is not the answer. It has nothing to do with pride. It is about right and wrong, and you are wrong! The way that I see it is that you are emotionally Fragile!! You can’t handle your relationship with us in a grown up way. Let’s face it, something like this wouldn’t last more than a day with most people. You have emotional problems The way I see it is MOMMY HURT MY FEELINGS!! How much blood did you lose? Is this the first time that you had your feelings hurt? Does the punishment to your parents, your children, and a relationship with your wife justify the pain that you are causing? This is abnormal behavior son. We have consulted a psychiatrist for ways to handle this matter. This seems to be an emotional problem for you.

You act like you hate your mother. How can someone that you hate cause you so much pain inside? That can only happen if you have feelings for someone. Your mother has loved you from the second that she knew she was pregnant. It is always the same,”MY MOMMY HURT MY FEELINGS!” Her crime doesn’t fit the punishment. I am confused. What did her or I do to cause you to have so much pain inside? DO you even know? You demand, demand, demand but you don’t give. It is always about you. Some people may think that it is ok to kill someone that spits on the ground but to most clear thinking adults the crime doesn’t fit the punishment. Your Mommy hurt your feelings but that does not justify your behavior towards her or her punishment. You are dead wrong. I am sorry to see it. I really am. Maybe someday you will look back and see that we did not interfere in your lives. Your mistakes are yours! You know if you had gone into the service and were sent to war, you would know that this is nothing in life. I grew up fast and I know what is important and believe me these little mental breakdowns are not normal and not worth it. GET HELP! One more thing, YOU ARE MAKING THE DECISION TO TAKE US OUT OF YOUR CHILDRENS LIVES. NOT US! WE WOULD NEVER HURT THEM OR ABANDON THEM LIKE THAT. THEY ARE THE BRIGHT LIGHTS IN OUR LIVES. WE LOVE THEM WITH ALL OF OUR HEARTS. THEY WILL ALWAYS BE ON OUR MIND AND IN OUR HEARTS AND SOMEDAY WHEN THEY COME TO US AND I BELIEVE THAT THEY WILL, I WILL SHOW THEM ALL OF YOUR THREATS TO ME AND YOUR MOM. I WILL SHOW THEM ALL OF YOUR DEMANDS, LACK OF LOVE AND RESPECT TOWARDS US AND THAT YOU USED THEM IN THIS SICK GAME TO PUNISH US. THEY WILL KNOW THAT WE NEVER LEFT THEM OR WALKED OUT ON THEM, WILLINGLY.THEY WILL SEE THAT IT WAS ALL YOUR DOING. <ex-wife> WILL TELL <son> AND <daughter> THAT WE LOVE THEM AND THAT WE NEVER WOULD HURT THEM OR LEAVE THEM. ONLY <daughter> WILL WONDER ABOUT US AND SOMEDAY <daughter> AND <son> WILL TELL HER THAT WE LOVED HER AS MUCH AS WE LOVE THEM BUT YOU WOULDN’T LET US SEE HER OR BE A PART OF HER LIFE. THEN YOU WILL HAVE TO ANSWER FOR YOUR BEHAVIOR AND MEANESS. AND IF WE DIE, THERE WILL BE LETTERS TO THE CHILDREN, WITH YOUR OWN WORDS FOR THEM TO READ AND SEE AND PEOPLE WHO KNOW US WILL TELL THEM THE TRUTH. FOR OUR WILLS ARE IN THEIR NAMES ONLY!

I don’t know how you sleep at night? You accuse and you blame others for your faults. By the way did you realize how many I WILLS are in your nasty e-mails that you sent? Watch what you send, for they are mine and I can consult any one that I want to without hesitation. I can share them with anyone. Even your children someday. E-mails wars have stopped and will no longer be tolerated. Nothing gets accomplished. I love you enough to take a stand and not allow you to do this anymore. Time for me to be a parent. You can call me and tell me that it’s all my fault. Fine! I won’t break like your mother. MY phone is on 24/7, as I never blocked you. I won’t block you but I won’t respond to you either, unless, it is conciliatory! I will always leave the lines of communication open in hopes that someday you will see the truth, I sincerely hope that someone doesn’t hurt you as you’ve hurt me. I love you and that is why I did this. Now did you really want to hear from me? I didn’t cave like your mother. You see I really don’t care for the nastiness and your demands. I won’t allow it anymore! I will not tolerate a rude, disrespectful or hateful relationship or REPLY. It is a childish tirade. I don’t think that you are man enough to admit that you are wrong. I want you to prove me wrong. Please prove me wrong. I want to see that day, but I knowing you, I will live that long.



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Sela

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 05:47:36 PM »
Hi SF,

I'll take a shot at it:

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If you don’t want us to talk to <ex-wife>, stop this now.
 threat.  We will talk to your ex-wife if you don't do as we want.


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Either stop this and let us see the kids or realize that you forced us into <ex-wife>’s life.
 Do what we say or else.  Threat.  We are making a choice and putting the blame on you.  We are innocent.  You are a villain.  All or nothing.  Our way or the highway (but it's your fault!) Ya right.  :)

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We want <daughter> to know us but you continue these immature behaviors and threats.
 Typical.  He's making the threat in this particular case and accusing you of doing so. Yep.  Maturity?  Not happening in his court.

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The way that I see it is that you are emotionally Fragile!! You can’t handle your relationship with us in a grown up way. Let’s face it, something like this wouldn’t last more than a day with most people. You have emotional problems
 Diagnosing.  Even if this were true, it's not how a loving, caring, sensitive parent communicates with a child (even an adult child).  And....if he believes you do have emotional problems, then why isn't he treating your emotions with care, so as to not make things worse?  Why isn't he stopping it from lasting more than a day, if he's like most people?   Nonsense.

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This is abnormal behavior son.
 More diagnosing.  Has he got a license to do that?  How is that supposed to help?

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Does the punishment to your parents, your children, and a relationship with your wife justify the pain that you are causing?
 More blame game.  In his head he's an angel, you're a demon.  It takes two to tango, daddy.

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We have consulted a psychiatrist for ways to handle this matter.
 I'm sorry SF, I started to laugh when I read this one!  I just bet the doc advised him to make threats, do some fancy diagnosing and send this blame game note along promptly for an excellent communication experience with his emotionally mucked up son.   I know this isn't funny for you but I just wanted to let you know how seriously contorted he makes himself look to a complete stranger on a bulletin board here.   Imo, no reasonable human would take this person's view seriously and that thought might help you.  Maybe others see his idiocy as well?

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You act like you hate your mother. How can someone that you hate cause you so much pain inside? That can only happen if you have feelings for someone.
 This is so distorted it's incredible.  What if you actually hate your mother? (not saying you do).  This would likely cause you pain as children normally love their mothers.  Unless, ofcourse,  something happens to cause a child enough pain which manifests itself as anger and eventually hate for her.  He has no idea, it seems, of what happened.  He's putting words (so to speak) into your mouth.  He's defining your feelings.   Have you actually expressed hate for your mother?  Or is he just diagnosing and judging? (no need to answer me, that's for sure!).

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Your mother has loved you from the second that she knew she was pregnant. It is always the same,”MY MOMMY HURT MY FEELINGS!"

Who knows if she does or does not love you.  The point is that he is belittling the hurt feelings he has assigned to you.  Belittling your son's feelings (who you have diagnosed as having emotional problems).  I wonder if the doc advised this as well?  Oh puuleeeeez!

You you you you you you you you you .......... not much finger pointing going on here eh?  I won't waste time with it all.

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Watch what you send, for they are mine and I can consult any one that I want to without hesitation.
 OOOooooooo!  More threats!  Are you supposed to be scared now?

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I can share them with anyone. Even your children someday.
 Don't worry SF.  Your kids will make up their own minds.  I don't think I'd want to play with him any more.  He just doesn't play fair.

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I love you enough to take a stand and not allow you to do this anymore.
  This is a prime example of the confusing web that N's weave.  The "I love you" is supposed to hook you but love is not sending nasty notes, full of blame and threats,  diagnosing then assigning feelings, which are then belittled.  Love is not that.   Loving parents don't do that, as far as I know.  Yes, he's angry.  So what?  Say so!  Don't point fingers and make ultimatums and then try to say everything is all yourrrrrrr son's fault.  I can see it isn't.  Couldn't possibly be.

I'm sorry ((((((((((((((((SF))))))))))))))))).   Sorry you had to receive this.  :(

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FOR OUR WILLS ARE IN THEIR NAMES ONLY!
 The ultimate kick in the face.  Money.  Grasping at straws.  The final weapon.   Used to torment you.  How very flippin' loving can he get??

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I won’t respond to you either, unless, it is conciliatory!
 I wonder if he's sitting and waiting patiently by the phone?  Is this his way of trying to regain your friendship?  Do it his way or he will not speak to you again?


 
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I don’t think that you are man enough to admit that you are wrong.

Now he's attacking your manhood.  One last attempt to reduce you.   Shame you!!


It's true you have no control over who he chooses to have relationships with.  You do, however, have the choice of whether or not to respond to this junk or.......

to let him wait by the phone for eons.

What will you do SF?  (Once more, no need to answer unless you wanna.  This is just stuff to chew on.  Take what helps and spit the rest out).

Sela


On edit:  I'm pretty sure Hops is a reasonable human which shows how wrong I can be about anyone taking anyone's view seriously or not.  :roll:

« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 10:24:46 PM by Sela »

Logy

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 07:57:24 PM »
WOW!  OMG!  OMG!  WOW! 

Agree with EVERYTHING Sela said.  Sela gave you some excellent comments regarding your dad's email. 

Other than that, the thing that stood out for me was:

It is too hard <sfalken>. It is too hard to be constantly hurt by you. You may get the idea that I have had enough of your childish behavior and you are right! I blame you for ALL that has happened and gone wrong. I can’t let you continue to hurt me and your mother. I know that you don’t like boundaries. Most children don’t but it must be done. I never put any boundaries on you when you were a child. You never learned to respect your parents. I don’t care if you are 36 or 50. I am still your dad. I did the very best that I could by you and this is what I get. Well, NO MORE You can’t tell us who to talk to or have relationships with.

He is still talking to you as if you are a child, treating you as a child.  "I'm still your dad".  In other words, you have no rights as an adult.  Maybe THEY need to learn how to interact with you as adult and not a child!

I don’t  think that you are man enough to admit that you are wrong.

He can't take you being a man, standing up for yourself.  And he says let us be adults!!!!!!!!!!!  I'd tell him that I AM an adult, stop treating me like a child!  There is so much wrong with his email.  The grandchildren will grow up one day and be able to see through the crap, if you are true to them.  Be the man you know you are.  Allow your children to form their own opinions (and oh yes they will).








Hopalong

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 09:23:23 PM »
Hi Sflalken,

I'm so sorry you're going through this. It sounds horribly painful.
One thing that occurs to me is that EMAIL and FACEBOOK and the like are terribly treacherous spaces in which to conduct relationships, especially important ones. (And even though frustrating, this is a very important one.) The online "connecting" actually, I think, contributes to a lot of distorted communications.

Just consider how it's all played out...almost everything you've reported here on VESMB has had to do with what somebody wrote. In 2-D. I think it's doing a number on all of us in ways that future psychologists will write reams about...

What occured to me most strongly when I read his letter is:

He's just a guy.
He's all puffed up with "father role" but really, he's just a guy.
He feels helpless and intensely frustrated.
He's not very introspective.
He's really, really frustrated.
He loves his grandchildren like crazy and can't bear that "access to them" is one of the chess pieces.
He's manipulated by his wife.
He feels manipulated by his son.

He's trying to do a "man speech" or a "father speech" and he's just not strong or wise enough to do it well. So he's descended into huff and puff, threatening, pompous righteousness.

But he's just a guy. A vet. Aging. Confused and very very very frustrated about the whole thing.

Not doing a great job of being a father. Manipulative, threatening.

Under all that...so sad.

He loves his grandkids. That's pure.

He loves his son whose weapons (verbal) he can't win against.

He may love his wife too--but he's hooked into her dance.

He loves you.

He doesn't know what to do.

He's beyond frustrated.

He wants it to end and is trying "force" -- because nothing else works, it's all too slippery for him, the parries and counterthrusts and emotions whizzing around his head, particularly between you and his wife...are like speeding shrapnel.

He can't keep up. But he feels he has to do SOMETHING. That's what a (fill in the blank) father/grandfather/protective soldier...does.

But he can't get it right.

He's trying, but he's not wise.

He's just a guy.

He loves his grandkids.

And his son.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2010, 08:20:26 AM »
SF:

I think you've made a couple of simple (but totally understandable) errors in your thinking. You've expected your folks to be normal rational adults and as parents, to care about how you feel. uh.... it's pretty clear that these expectations aren't facts. They aren't like that, obviously; as Sela has so carefully pointed out. So it's understandable and a natural reaction for you to react to this basic expectation with anger - well, ok, probably rage. And the loop of the maze-game you're in has you totally zooming in on all the evidence that justifies your rage.... if the basic premise that your parents are normal people is true. But, from what I've seen it's not true. By expecting an apology and respect for your decisions and feelings (accountability for their behavior) - you've just pushed their aggressive buttons, giving them a delusional reason for attacking you.

The confusion you feel is due to a technique called gaslighting - where the victim gets blamed for exactly what the aggressor is doing. It pushes accountability back onto the victim, usually - with a heavy dose of blame, shame, etc (see text of letter). This is a god-awful thing to experience as it makes us doubt and distrust our own senses and grasp of reality. Rather than try to untangle the lies, deceit and projection going on in a gaslighting situation... my advice is to separate you and your feelings from all the threats and accusations and glitter-confusion-storm... as if you were in a quiet, semidark room alone... until the worst of the feelings subside and your sense of reality returns. Gaslighting can make one feel physically dizzy... and like you've just gone down the rabbit hole and everything you "know" is wrong. You have to have a baseline of objective facts (sans the expectations, and he said/she said details) to start from. And then... work on emotions in parallel with a cold, scientific set of "facts" that you can verify... and from considering those facts - and your emotional preferences - begin to make decisions about how much contact with these people who simply by birthing you - are your parents - make decisions about how much contact is good/bad for you and your family.

The goal of gaslighting, is to get you to question your own judgement and sanity thereby validating your parent's Nsense of being all-knowing, always "right", and in control. If you yourself are not sure about your understanding of the situation and what's going on and whether you are being fair or not - ask someone impartial! That's what therapists are for you know. But, I hear a lot of what I struggled through in your frustated anger, so from my experience - this is what I see going on. Doesn't mean I'm right - you'll have to try it on for size and see if it makes sense the context of your situation.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2010, 02:19:07 PM »
sfalken:

Lots of good info on the board.

I want to add that it's sometimes helpful to journal your feelings, in their strongest form, then read and re-write, over and over. 

It might take an entire notebook (or 2), but hopefully you'll have internalized and distilled all those feelings down to their purest form.

In my experience, at the point you can disucss this calmly with anyone, no matter what they throw at you.......

you've broken the cycle of doubt and pain, reaching some form of acceptance. 

I hope your children are old enough to understand an age appropriate version of the truth. 

Mo2



Sealynx

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2010, 09:58:52 PM »
sfalken,
That letter could have been written by my own father. Can you believe a letter can go on that long without one word about exactly what happened and what needed to be done differently in relationship to the incident? He never defends what they did by naming it. That alone tells me it is indefensible. He is projecting his own MO, bury your feelings and quit whining. I think most of us have done too much of that in this life but it is what he needs to do to keep his marriage together and he's learned well. 

He is constantly alternating between insinuating that you are a child and should listen to your parents and listing all the punishments he can think of to throw at you if you don't. He is not acknowledging you as an adult even though he claims that you need to be one. There is no way out of this because he believes that it is his right to continue to enforce his opinions and values on you and is unwilling to examine his relationship to his wife.

I'd like to recommend spending a few nights reading a book. It outlines the different kinds of parental patterns and how they affect you. It also includes some exercises to help deal with them as adults. I think like most of us, you suffer not only from his words but from the parenting styles that left you open to the feelings they are trying to manipulate. Use Doc's Amazon link so it supports the board and search this on Amazon...  "Healing Your Emotional Self: A Powerful Program to Help You Raise Your Self-Esteem, Quiet Your Inner Critic, and Overcome Your Shame "....

They are trying to use just about everything in that book title against you.
Good luck!
Sea
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 09:08:27 AM by Sealynx »

seastorm

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 01:27:59 AM »
Sfalcon,

Sorry that you are bombarded by your dad with all these ultimatums, directives, criticisms, disappointments and on and on. Good Grief!
Underlying his awkward and terribly misguided onslaught is his pain at this situation. He is trying to do the right thing but there is no clear path to that. He made a commitment to your other family and he has not divorced even if you have. This is way to complicated for him I think.  It seems like he believes in "just suck it up and try to keep the peace".  He is begging you to do this too. It isn't working for him and won't work for you either.

These dramatic, overwrought emails need to stop. Emails can heat things up very quickly. Instead of maintaining an objectivity, they only present about fifteen percent of communication. Many believe that even that small percentage, the verbal part,. is hugely open to misinterpretation. Think of how fast internet affairs heat up. I agree with Hops about this.
The only thing I would do at this point, and it is just a thought, is to validate you dad for SOMETHING in his email. Like " Thanks Dad for caring so much. I know it has been hard. I love you. " That is it.  This is a very verbal family.  Keep it short for awhile. Trust has to be there for any communication. If possible see a very skilled family therapist and make sure communication is monitored and that the conversation stays fair.  There is so much pain and mudslinging.

You sound at your wits end and need to take time to let the smoke settle and get stable again. Ignore all the threats and anger if possible. This is not how bridges are built. I think it must be horrible for you because your kids are the hostages of all this gossip and backbiting.  They are so caught in the middle.  That would be my FIRST concern.  Do not involve the children if possible in these dreadful triangles.  If anyone is trying to enlist the kids in this struggle for power or love or whatever it is, then they should back off and the kids need to learn to tell them that they better directly to whoever is supposed to get the message.
Kids are very smart and even if they cant write an encyclopedia about this they do know what is going on. Usually they get it better than the adults. Try to keep open to them and just listen. Learn to talk to them if you dont know how now. This is not a healthy family for kids. Or for adults.  You cant fix it. I doubt anyone could unless all parties were jumping up and down and asking for help, but they aren't. Kids are amazing in that they pick up everything from you as soon as you learn it. Try detaching from the drama and the chaos.  Teach them to do it too.

Love,
Sea storm

PS  I hope I dont sound preachy. I really feel for you.

sfalken

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2010, 02:46:42 PM »
I've taken a couple days now, and I feel like a more stable me is coming back to the surface. It is so difficult to describe this situation to people who have not experienced this type of personality from a parent (let alone two of them), and so, everyone here should know, how much I value your time, effort and input. I should probably be a bit better about offering a word of encouragement to others, and will try more going forward. ;-)

I was going to try to address everyone's replies individually but, there are so many facets to each message, that I dont know if I would be able without writing a REALLY long reply. I guess I should start by saying, I agree with every one of you. From Sela's analysis of the message itself, to the resounding feeling, that my father is simply incapable of communicating, and is also one who aims to "stuff it down and ignore it". As a child, that was his favorite position, when he would come home from a long day of work to find NM attacking me verbally or otherwise. He didnt care what she had done, or how badly she lied, his aim was to shut me up and keep me from speaking up or telling the truth of any situation, and to try to force me to just "take it" from her - no matter what. She would bold face lie to others in a room - and I would make eyes - and he would silently give me the eye back which meant "shut up - dont even think about speaking" - then nod his head and agree with her lies and exaggerations. I remember the endless discussions where he told me to "just let it roll off" of my back, like a duck. But regardless of the situation, if I did, speak, or stand up, he immediately labeled me as "angry" and "wrong" and flew off the handle to make sure I wouldn't venture there again.

He came from a southern family of 10 children, and my grandfather had been (in his younger years) a course father to his children. He joined the army at 19 and was sent to Vietnam to see a year and a half of combat.These two facts give me some clue as to his way of dealing with things - since both environments perpetuated that same MO. "shut up, ignore it, move on, etc." Later my NM reinforced it after they were married - she taught him to be silent. It was baked into the bread, so to speak. When a problem came along, instead of giving it an appropriate response, he annihilated the entire landscape to avoid the possibility of a confrontation.

I think that even a person who was on "good" terms with someone, having received this note, would not want to associate with the sender. If we were 50 miles apart before the note, I feel more like 1000 miles apart after reading it. How could ANYone or why would anyone want to reconcile with a family that speaks of them that way, or belittles and humiliates them so. A family that berates them and makes them feel like they have always been the blame for everything. A family that claims that they need mental help.

My parents have never once in my adult life given me the respect of being an adult, let alone that I am a father,  a husband, a homeowner, and a hard working employee, etc. For them, from the youngest age I can remember, through my entire adulthood, others my own age have always been more desirable company, and more preferable to spend time with. Ive never been "one of the guys" with my father. From the time I was a kid, he "grouped" me with my mother (I used to think because she and I have similar dark features). During get-togethers, I was always with the women as a boy - he didnt want me in the room with the men - he didnt say it - but I felt it. As an adult, it did not change.  I was too much "her", for him, perhaps. I knew that they had had marital problems after the war and almost split up - but then I came along and he had to remain. I have often wondered if he blames me for his marriage to my NM, and that at this point, it is so buried that he cant remember why he despises me so badly.

My parents claim to be evangelical Christians - a life I once lived in practice, although I am far more conservative these days. (I'm more of a deist now, really.) NM portrays the evangelical image to others, and although he would rather be at home with a beer, she drags him along to church. I wonder if anyone caught their reference to me being like Satan himself. In the bible, in Isaiah, there is the passage where Lucifer says the 5 "I wills" and is then cast out of heaven to begin his being as Satan. The part of my father's letter that asks me if I noticed how often I say "I will" refers to this. Ive even at one point been reminded by them that Satan means "The accuser", and to remember that (at the given time) I was acting like him. Lots of hidden imagery.

What is so difficult to understand, is the simplicity that should be evident. My wife and I received a note from my mother. We (you're right Phoenix we should not have expected..) wrote a simple note asking how she would feel if someone spoke to her this way. Then he treated us badly for months upon months, and I/we stood our ground. Now this. I have never once made a threat. Ive never once said I am "keeping the kids away". I have only said that I expect that if they want to be a family, for there to be an effort to "make it right". No picking the cherries. Nobody gets to treat me or my family that way, and just act like nothing happened.

But instead of making it right, it IS easier for them to pick the cherries that they think they can get, by going through my ex - to see my older children, and to forget myself, my wife, and my youngest.

Emails are bad. I agree. I had tried to derail the email train a while back by offering my mother to talk on the phone, but my father called Verizon and had a block put on her phone, so that I and my wife could not call NM or text her at that point, and we could only talk to him. I was so upset by that, that I tried to just forget it, and them, at the time. Then months later she decided to pick up with email again, and when I didnt go along with her demands, I received his email this week.

I know that there is nothing I could possibly say or do, that will make anything better at this point. That letter was like the last nail in the coffin. even if I could pry it open, I wouldnt want to, after that. I had a fantasy until now, that if we didn't talk anymore, perhaps he would "see the light" someday while convalescing in "tough guy hills" nursing home, but, a friend reminded me this week that I should let that go. He will not likely see the light, and he/they will never let themselves admit the truth of my upbringing, and who/what they truly are, and how they act.

I had him on such a pedestal when I was a kid, despite his behavior toward me, because I saw him as the "good guy' in comparison with my NM, and believed that he was going to save me from her madness far more often than he actually did. It was like the lottery effect - once in a blue moon, he would speak up on a small thing for me toward her, but 95% of the time, I was blamed and shamed. I was pulling the lever for years, because I thought there was a chance that the "good guy" was still in there. I was wrong.

This week I ordered "Children of the Self-Absorbed: A Grown-Up's Guide to Getting over Narcissistic Parents" and "Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life" Hopefully I can find some help there, and will immediately after look into purchasing "Healing Your Emotional Self".

Id love to say so much more, but my reply is already long.

I will say, that in the wake of reading that note, I immediately afterward sent a reply that said "Well, I guess this is the end then. Goodbye".


Now I have to swallow that, and accept it myself. I know its right.

Thank you all so much. ;-)



sKePTiKal

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2010, 07:57:26 AM »
SF:

It is hard-hard-hard when the person who has the power and opportunity to rescue you, stand up for you, defend you from the "evil parent" - doesn't. It is a form of abandonment and this has it's own set of things & feelings to work through - separate, yet connected to the primary relationship that's "not right".

I hope my previous note about expectations didn't come across as blaming you. It is truly not your fault and you are totally blameless for believing that your parents are normal people who woud be able to have a normal relationship with you - as an adult. They themselves want to believe that all this is normal - but since it's not working out the way they want to - there are "issues" and who else are they going to blame? THEY did nothing wrong and are probably sincere in their deluded belief that they're blameless. And they won't learn and aren't able to learn - otherwise.

Please be kind to yourself while you're sorting out all the "cherries" ('coz you know you will sometime). Give yourself breaks from the process, too - to simply live and enjoy your life: don't retreat or withdraw from others while you're trying to resolve all the "old" crap. This is a REAL and painful thing to deal with - but a bunch of us have been there and we've gotten better - and we feel for ya.... so:

(((((((((((((((((((((sfalken))))))))))))))))))))))))

It will be OK; it will be all right.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

seastorm

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2010, 05:22:40 PM »
Dear Falcon,

You have put your heart and soul into trying to be fair and decent in communicating with your parents, and even so they continue to want to control you to an extent that is unacceptable. I can imagine how painful this is. I cut off contact with my mother a year before she died. After that I would get physically ill at the thought of trying one more time. If what she had to offer was her love, it sure
didn't feel like it. It wasn't evil of me. It was survival.

All the best,

Sea storm

Sealynx

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2010, 06:43:02 PM »
SF,
Children of the Self-absorbed is one of my favorite books I'm sure you will find some good words there.
S

mudpuppy

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2010, 07:26:35 PM »
sfalken,
I would no longer communicate with someone who wrote such a manipulative, intentionally destructive letter.
And you are a far better judge of whether your parents actually love your kids or not.
Ns are quite capable of slobbering all over themselves about how much they love someone when in reality it's merely another weapon used to harm whomever they perceive as the biggest threat to their control.

mud

sfalken

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2010, 11:05:17 AM »
I was thinking about a very subtle thing that almost always occurs in their messages.

When either say anything about their 'desire' for a relationship with my children, they almost always phrase it that they want them (the children) to know 'them', or spend time with them, etc. not the other way around. (e.g., they don't say "we would like to spend time with the children", or "we would like to get to know the children better") I think though subtle, this is a perfect example and it gives a glimpse into the thinking of a personality like this.

I've received my book,"Children of the Self Absorbed". After only a few chapters I'm seeing things that I need to work on - as in - the possibility that I have under-developed empathy, and, that I need to work on putting others needs before my own, (e.g., the ability to postpone gratification, and put others needs before my own). I would rather recognize these things in my self and try to improve them now. They are legacy remnants of my childhood with my N parents - behaviors that were not taught properly to me. It's difficult though. How do you develop or improve such core characteristics at 36yrs old?

« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 04:46:34 PM by sfalken »

Hopalong

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Re: Terrible..
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2010, 07:51:34 PM »
good for you, Sfalken!

Building empathy in yourself allows you to begin to forgive its lack in others without maintaining a self-image as victim.

Empathy, coupled with healthy boundaries, is empowering!

bravo,

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."